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Up to Discussions in M5 / M9 / M13
4296 Views 18 Replies Latest reply: Aug 17, 2011 10:32 AM by freextyle RSS
magpie Just Startin'
magpie
64 posts since
Jan 25, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Mar 12, 2010 12:35 PM

Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

I wonder if the od/distortions in the M9/M13 ever have been updated or improved,

or are they exactly the same found on the ten year old DM4 goldcolored stompbox?

 

I know Line 6 have confirmed that they have improved their amp models with updated products, but have they ever improved any fx?

 

Overall I think they are good, not the top class of stomp boxes, so improvements can surely be made.

IMO many models are a bit harsh even with eq and tweaking, and not as smooth and transparent as they truly could be with some updated tweaks from programmers. My best models are the Line 6 drive, Line 6 distortion and tube drive, but they and the others can be improved.

When Line 6 launches updates, it would be nice if they could also improve already available fx.

Wouldn't it be much easier to improve available models rather than develop new? I'm not a programmer but is it really that hard to make adjustments?

I'm sure all Line 6 users agree on this one.

 

I've been a line 6 user for ten years and have always updated to the new models. Many times it seems like the actual fx stay the same and only the hardware is updated. A company economic friendly approach, but not always the best for the musicians that use the product. A big company like Line 6 should be able to do what a small company like Fractal Audio, Axe-fx is doing. They frequently update and improve the design and fx so it evolves and get better. They quickly do what their users request.

Just a thought. Keep up the good work!

  • phil_m Expert Line 6 User
    phil_m
    3,076 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 12, 2010 12:42 PM (in response to magpie)
    Re: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

    Well as far as the ODs being transparent, I'd say that would be a function of the effects that were originally modeled.  Most of the vintage overdrives and distortions that Line 6 modeled are anything but transparent.

     

    I'd also say when you're talking about sonic improvements, it's a subjective thing, so what may be an improvement to one person may be a step backwards to another.  Personally, I'd rather not see them make sonic changes to existing models unless it's to fix obvious bugs.  If you have built presets around certain effects and then those effects are altered to sound different, I'd think that would tend to tick me off.  So, personally, I don't have a problem with them never making an "improvement" on an effect model.  I'd much rather that if they want to change things that they make additional models.

  • Karl_Houseknecht Expert Line 6 User
    Karl_Houseknecht
    3,374 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 12, 2010 12:39 PM (in response to magpie)
    Re: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

    magpie wrote:


    Many times it seems like the actual fx stay the same and only the hardware is updated. A company economic friendly approach, but not always the best for the musicians that use the product. A big company like Line 6 should be able to do what a small company like Fractal Audio, Axe-fx is doing. They frequently update and improve the design and fx so it evolves and get better.

     

    I'm an Axe-Fx owner, and my biggest gripe?  Ready for it?

     

    The constant updates and tweaks to the default parameters and models.

     

    Two upgrades to the firmware since I bought the unit last fall.  And each time I had to re-tweak my gigging patches.  That's a big waste of a gigging guitarist's time (and his bandmates' time).  I bought the unit for how good it sounded initially.  Does it sound better now after those updates?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Like Phil said, one person's idea of "better" might be another person's idea of "worse".

     

    Keep in mind, I love my Axe and I love how it sounds, but not all change is good change.  Many people on that board report that after an upgrade that about half of their patches sound worse and half better, and they have to spend time re-tweaking.  If you're a constant tweaker, then this is your definition of paradise: constant change.

    • phil_m Expert Line 6 User
      phil_m
      3,076 posts since
      Jan 25, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Mar 12, 2010 12:50 PM (in response to Karl_Houseknecht)
      Re: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

      Yeah, I think that's can really be the downfall of having too many options available to you at any given time.  It's easy to get this idea that if you just tweak this or that, or if something is a little bit different, than you will "arrive" at perfection.  The thing is, though, that's generally not conducive to actually progressing as an artist or a player.

       

      I recorded an album with a friend a few years ago using mostly the POD2.0 for the guitar parts.  I used the XT on one or two songs, and I miced my amp on another.  Now when I listen to those songs, I generally don't sit and think, "boy my tone sucked then" or "I should have tweaked the distortion on that song differently".  I may think that I might have done parts differently if I were doing them now, but I'm not filled with regret over my tone.  Actually, I'm rather amazed that things ended up as good as they did for what little we paid to make the album.  But, anyway, I don't know that it's helpful to continually worry about having the perfect distortion, delay, or whatever.  As long as you find something that works for you and fits with the music you're playing, all these other things are really a distraction.

       

      OK, enough of my philosophical rant...

    • magpie Just Startin'
      magpie
      64 posts since
      Jan 25, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Mar 12, 2010 1:09 PM (in response to Karl_Houseknecht)
      Re: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

      Karl I know, I follow the Axe forum and others closely. Fractal improvrove amp models, power amp response fx parameters and more.

      I just think that the basic raw sound, transparancy and graininess from an od could be improved + added tweaking.

      There is no doubt a big company like Line 6 easily could make their fx models 10x times more versatile and tweakable simply if they wanted.

      For example the wha's, add a simple q control and eq.

      For the compressor, add ratio control etc.

      I can't imagine that Line 6 felt they "perfected" it ten years ago with the DM4. Sure, they made it good, but it can easily be improved today with some adjustments.

      I just thought it should be brought up when Line 6 are launching updates.

      Tonetweaking is the guitarist's curse =)

  • fizgal Just Startin'
    fizgal
    2 posts since
    Mar 24, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 24, 2010 5:54 AM (in response to magpie)
    Re: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

    Sorry to bring up this post.

     

    I have used a DM4 for years, eventually got rid of it when I started to use analog dirt pedals. For some reason, when I started to use the analog pedals, the sound in the DM4 started to bug me. I can't describe it exactly, the detail is subtle, but there is something in the original pedals I could never achieve with the DM4.

     

    Yesterday I bought the M9, fantastic unit, but the first thing that started to bug me where the dirt pedals in the M9. Comparing them again to my analog pedals I come to the same conclusion I did a few years ago. The analog pedals have a more organic quality to them, I sometimes think I can hear a wider frequency range, and definatly a smoother top end when compared to the M9.

     

    There are some decent dirt models in the M9, but none of them are fantastic... which is a little sad actually. As the original poster, I had also hoped these models had evolved.

    Maybe there is a future possibility to leave the standard models as they are, but give more options to tweak each model ? A parametric mid would be a nice start. This would leave all existing presets as they are, but give the possibility to fine tune a very dominant and important frequency.

    I know there are EQ's in the M9, but it would be a shame to have to give up a slot just to tweak a drive sound...

     

    Sorry, to spill my opinion like this, just hoping that Line6 has an open mind and are willing to improve this product...

     

    I'm also new here, so forgive me for bumping in, but is there an e-mail or contact form where users can submit feature requests ?

  • magpie Just Startin'
    magpie
    64 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 24, 2010 4:58 PM (in response to magpie)
    Re: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

    It would be good if Line 6 would let us users know if the OD's are improved or the same as the old DM4.

    I thought my question would be easy to answer, no?

     

    I agree that the od/distortions are good and get the job done, but they are not as great as they could be with some simple tweaking. If Line 6 don't want to improve available models, they could develop new ones. I'd much rather have a single very good smooth transparent OD from Line 6 rather than all the filter fx put together. Perhaps add new OD's based on some more modern pedals from brands like Wampler, Barber, Xotic, Fulltone etc...

    I've gone through all od's many times but can't find a nice transparant od/clean boost. Most start to crackle/buzz hard when pushed just a bit over clean. Eq won't take that away, it's how the od breaks up that needs tweaking. The classic distortion model is one of the closest I get to a transparant tone and smooth breakup going from clean to od.

    I really like my M9 unit but the so important od's could be improved.

    If Line 6 would tweak or add new od's it would benefit both Line 6 profit and all users.

    • fizgal Just Startin'
      fizgal
      2 posts since
      Mar 24, 2010
      Currently Being Moderated
      Mar 24, 2010 11:46 PM (in response to magpie)
      Re: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

      Hi magpie

       

      You have described it better than I ever could.

      This is exactly my gripe with the Line6 models (DM4 and M9), when you push the effect a little with pick attack they start to crackle and buzz in an unpleasant way that is not the case with real analog pedals. I especially hear it in the upper range of frequencies. I couldn't put my finger on it, but what you describe is exactly what the problem is.

      The models don't respond smoothly across their drive-range. Indeed, no EQ will ever solve this..

       

      I did find a feature request page on the Line6 site, and have submitted a report. Let's hope Line6 is willing to add a few models.

       

      I don't have the DM4 anymore to compare with the M9, but when I played the M9 drives, it instantly reminded me of the DM4. It is lacking the exact same smoothness...

      • magpie Just Startin'
        magpie
        64 posts since
        Jan 25, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Mar 25, 2010 7:21 AM (in response to fizgal)
        Re: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

        Fizgal, I agree. So most likely the models are exactly the same as the ten year old DM4. I hope L6 listen to the suggestions made. Although Line 6 do get many complaints for reusing and repacking their old technology in new products, I think they could do that with a little twist. Their POD preamps are really good and have great sounding od/dist. Many complain about the POD's outdated IR cab models saying it's the weakest link, and that the IR cabs are surpassed many years ago by even free downloadable ones from the internet. But the POD preamps are great. Perhaps they could create stomp od's from the preamps? That would be very interesting and does not require creating brand new ones. Other pedal companies are very successfull with their "amp in a box" pedals + having more "transparant" stomps.

        • phil_m Expert Line 6 User
          phil_m
          3,076 posts since
          Jan 25, 2007
          Currently Being Moderated
          Mar 25, 2010 7:41 AM (in response to magpie)
          Re: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

          If Line 6 can actually make improvements that are rendering their models more accurate to the originals, than I would be all for it.  If it's just improving based on some subjective standard, than I would have reservations.  I think the thing that people seem to forget is that the majority of distortion models (and the other effects) are meant to model specific vintage effects, and beyond that specific versions of those effects.  So it seems to me that unless you've actually played through those effects that are modeled, it's hard to say whether or not the model is accurate.  As far as the harshness, I'd say that it could be a function of the digital modeling, but I've also played some analog pedals that sounded like bees mating.

           

          I'm not saying they're models are perfect, but I have seen and heard some convincing shootouts of their effects compared to the original models, and for a lot of them you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference.

           

          Personally, the OD and distortions on the M13/M9 have always been a bonus for me more than anything.  I would have bought them even if they weren't there, and they still would have been a bargain.

          • magpie Just Startin'
            magpie
            64 posts since
            Jan 25, 2007
            Currently Being Moderated
            Mar 25, 2010 8:15 AM (in response to phil_m)
            Re: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

            Phil_m, I have also heard youtube shootout clips where the similarities of stomps are great. Especially when cranked. Line 6 also provides their own versions of stomp in the M9, and L6 amps in the POD's. They could do whatever they want with these L6 models and easily make improvements. (Line 6 cleans, insane, L6 drive,, distortion etc...) I think that their ten year old digital technology needs some touching up. That buzzy harsh breaking up can't be hard to fix. I'm actually looking for an analog OD now to go with the M9 and I think it could be avoided with some "unavailable" tweaks.

  • Line6Miller Line 6
    Line6Miller
    11,613 posts since
    Mar 28, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 25, 2010 2:08 PM (in response to magpie)
    RE: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

    Hello,

       

      Thanks for your feedback on the OD effects on M9. I'm not sure if the OD effects were revoiced or improved but from the threads that I have read it seems a general consensus among M9/M13 users that these effects Could be improved.

       

      Please submit a feature request for this as Rick (Renken) always appreciates opinions among M9 and M13 users.

       

       

      http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/?topic_id=3

       

       

      Line6Miller

  • freextyle Just Startin'
    freextyle
    2 posts since
    Dec 10, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 16, 2011 10:53 AM (in response to magpie)
    Re: Improved or same od/distortions in M9/M13 vs original DM4 ??

    hi ,

    i just wanted to share my comparison between my Ibañez Tube screamer TS-9 (keeley mod plus) vs  Pod HD500 tube screamer emulation.

     

    I bought both, thinking that with a TS 9 first in my chain will make a more organic sound.  Both TS9 and POD HD500 arrives to my home  i did a side by side comparison with my speakers KRK vxt4 -  P1 pacifica preamp into my CPU , so is a PRO chain to record for production.

     

    I spent time doing this side by side comparison between both and i cant here a diference , i got shocked !! how good was the Tubescreamer emulation of the PODHD, very diferrent from the Pod XT live i already have. So i think that all the FX are being upgraded in M series and HD since POD XT live , and the first DM4 stomps (don´t know if the new ones are upgraded)

    now I regret to bought my new Ibañez TS9 keeley mod , cause POD hd TS9 emulation is the same !!!!

     

    Very, very different tastes  between POD HD and POD XT live  Tubescreamers

     

    Hope it helps a little. 

     

    Congrats Line6 ,  fantastic work with this stomp TS-9 !!!!

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