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  • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
    Jan 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    90. Feb 3, 2010 12:59 PM (in response to captainbob)
    Re: Lack of support for Linux

    Just ribbing ya Captain...

     

    Linux was something I got into about 10 or 12 years ago...But since then I have reached a point where the ideal OS to me would be the one I could not see or even know it was there...Just turn it on and Get R Dun with the apps, IDEs, music software etc I need to use!!! Nothing is at that point yet...How silly is it that people celebrate OS releases?...I think it is...But then I do know that it is people like you that have an active interest in evolving Linux (or anything else) that might one day make my wish a reality...OS evangelism is something I am not really into but I understand where it comes from and there is a need for it...It's just no one has made the OS I can't see yet...

  • Karl_Houseknecht Expert Line 6 User 3,732 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    92. Feb 3, 2010 2:39 PM (in response to captainbob)
    Re: Lack of support for Linux

    captainbob wrote:


    My interest is not evangelism ... I am interested in telling people who have actually heard of Linux, to stop listening to the so called experts, and give it a try today if you want to.

    If it quacks like a duck...

     

    Just pullin your chain, captain!

  • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
    Jan 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    93. Feb 3, 2010 3:08 PM (in response to Karl_Houseknecht)
    Re: Lack of support for Linux

    Speaking of beer...Just replace Unix with Linux Captain...This is an oldie....Sorry for the re-hash Karl....

     

    If Operating Systems Were Beer

     

    DOS Beer:
    Requires you to use your own can opener, and requires you to read the
    directions carefully before opening the can. Originally only came in an 8-oz.
    can, but now comes in a 16-oz. can. However, the can is divided into 8
    compartments of 2 oz. each, which have to be accessed separately. Soon to be
    discontinued, although a lot of people are going to keep drinking it
    after it's
    no longer available.
        
    Mac Beer:
    At first, came only a 16-oz. can, but now comes in a 32-oz. can. Considered by
    many to be a "light" beer. All the cans look identical. When you take one from
    the fridge, it opens itself. The ingredients list is not on the can. If you
    call to ask about the ingredients, you are told that "you don't need to know."
    A notice on the side reminds you to drag your empties to the trashcan.
        
    Windows 3.1 Beer:
    The world's most popular. Comes in a 16-oz. can that looks a lot like Mac
    Beer's. Requires that you already own a DOS Beer. Claims that it allows you to
    drink several DOS Beers simultaneously, but in reality you can only
    drink a few
    of them, very slowly, especially slowly if you are drinking the Windows
    Beer at
    the same time. Sometimes, for apparently no reason, a can of Windows Beer will
    explode when you open it.
        
    OS/2 Beer:
    Comes in a 32-oz can. Does allow you to drink several DOS Beers
    simultaneously.
    Allows you to drink Windows 3.1 Beer simultaneously too, but somewhat slower.
    Advertises that its cans won't explode when you open them, even if you shake
    them up. You never really see anyone drinking OS/2 Beer, but the manufacturer 
    (International Beer Manufacturing) claims that 9 million six-packs have been
    sold.
        
    Windows 95 Beer:
    You can't buy it yet, but a lot of people have taste-tested it and claim it's
    wonderful. The can looks a lot like Mac Beer's can, but tastes more like
    Windows 3.1 Beer. It comes in 32-oz. cans, but when you look inside, the cans
    only have 16 oz. of beer in them. Most people will probably keep drinking
    Windows 3.1 Beer until their friends try Windows 95 Beer and say they like it.
    The ingredients list, when you look at the small print, has some of the same
    ingredients that come in DOS beer, even though the manufacturer claims that
    this is an entirely new brew.
        
    Windows NT Beer:
    Comes in 32-oz. cans, but you can only buy it by the truckload. This causes
    most people to have to go out and buy bigger refrigerators. The can looks just
    like Windows 3.1 Beer's, but the company promises to change the can to look
    just like Windows 95 Beer's - after Windows 95 beer starts shipping. Touted as
    an "industrial strength" beer, and suggested only for use in bars.
        
    Unix Beer:
    Comes in several different brands, in cans ranging from 8 oz. to 64 oz.
    Drinkers
    of Unix Beer display fierce brand loyalty, even though they claim that all the
    different brands taste almost identical. Sometimes the pop-tops break off when
    you try to open them, so you have to have your own can opener around for those
    occasions, in which case you either need a complete set of instructions, or a
    friend who has been drinking Unix Beer for several years.
        
    AmigaDOS Beer:
    The company has gone out of business, but their recipe has been picked up by
    some weird German company, so now this beer will be an import. This beer never
    really sold very well because the original manufacturer didn't understand
    marketing. Like Unix Beer, AmigaDOS Beer fans are an extremely loyal and loud
    group. It originally came in a 16-oz. can, but now comes in 32-oz. cans too.
    When this can was originally introduced, it appeared flashy and colorful, but
    the design hasn't changed much over the years, so it appears dated now.
    Critics
    of this beer claim that it is only meant for watching TV anyway.
        
    VMS Beer:
    Requires minimal user interaction, except for popping the top and sipping.
    However cans have been known on occasion to explode, or contain extremely un-
    beer-like contents.  Best drunk in high pressure development
    environments. When
    you call the manufacturer for the list of ingredients, you're told that is
    proprietary and referred to an unknown listing in the manuals published by the
    FDA.  Rumors are that this was once listed in the Physicians' Desk
    Reference as
    a tranquilizer, but no one can claim to have actually seen it.

  • pbear5 Just Startin' 472 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    94. Feb 4, 2010 11:29 AM (in response to spaceatl)
    Re: Lack of support for Linux

    man, i had forgotten all about OS/2!

  • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
    Jan 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    95. Feb 4, 2010 1:36 PM (in response to pbear5)
    Re: Lack of support for Linux

    That was actually a very stable OS...Windows NT managed to kill it...Among the reasons that I got a free copy of Windows NT 4.0 when I bought my MS C++ 5.0 IDE...Came in the box...OS/2 was a bit pricey as I remember it...Damn, was that really 15 years ago?

  • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
    Jan 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    97. Feb 5, 2010 8:29 AM (in response to captainbob)
    Re: Lack of support for Linux

    That looks pretty cool...Thanks for the link. I will keep an eye on it until my time comes to change my workstation hardware...I am in an "It ain't broke" situation right now....Seems like it would support my interface & DSP hardware under OSX...These days it takes a PCIe->5 slot PCI extender box for me to upgrade my MB to one with PCIe only since my cards are legacy....So no matter the OS direction, that will be a pain in the arse for me to get the cards situated properly without moving to UAD-2...

     

    If you have not checked out Universal Audio, I suggest you take a look...Sorry for the digression...Thier plugs are the very best I have ever heard...It is mindblowing to me that I have Pultec EQ plugs...They have some really nice analog gear also...Basically, one of the original Putman Sr. companies that you might recongnize is UREI...This is Putman Jr....

     

    uaudio.com

  • DoctorWu Just Startin' 398 posts since
    Jan 27, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    99. Mar 23, 2010 3:12 PM (in response to captainbob)
    Re: Lack of support for Linux

    I kind of hate to drag this thread up again.  But I recently decided to give Ubuntu Studio a try on my HP 8530p laptop. I've played around with various and assorted distributions of LINUX as just sort of a hobby for about the last 8 or 9 years.  I do think Linux is really neat plus stable, especially considering that it's free.  However, after playing around with Ubuntu Studio for a couple of days, I'm of the opinion that something like this will probably never come into mainstream usage by just your average musician, singer/song writer etc.  It's not just because of the lack of driver availability and/or support by the various hardware OEMs; although that is perhaps part of the reason.  But mainly, it's because of the following:

     

    I don't think that the average musician and/or music producer out there has the type of personality that rides well with an OS such as Linux.  Why do I think that?  Well, mainly because I consider myself pretty savy with computers and various computer operating systems.  But I did run into quite a few hurdles while experimenting with Ubuntu Studio.  Nothing that I didn't eventually figure out.  However, if I were just someone that was seriously considering making the switch to Linux (and not just a hobbiest fart around), I would've deemed my experience with Ubuntu Studio as being far too non-productive, as far as actually getting something recording and mixed.  And I did actually put forth considerable effort.  I can't even remember what some of the obstacles were that I encountered, but I do recall a few things; which I will here relate.

     

    For one:  Many of the issues that I ran into involved the need to do a lot of online research before I could get certain things working at all.  That's actually not too big of a deal, because anything has some sort of a learning curve, right?.  But almost all solutions involved opening a command terminal and typing in some really, really long cryptic command; coupled with the fact that Linux is also case sensitive.  If you type just a single character wrong, or neglect to use the shift key where appropriate, the whole thing won't work, and you have to type it in all over again.    Couldn't they at least make it to where these lengthy commands were either all upper-case or all lower case?    And I found myself having to do this kind of thing over and over again during the course of my trying to get things up and running.  And I have a pretty basic setup, actually.  I can't even imagine if I had as much hardware as a lot og guys got.  I've gotten to know quite a few musicians over the years, and none that I personally know are typically the kind of people that would tolerate this kind of frustration for very long.  They just want to set up, record, tweak, mix down, and be done with it. Personally, I've never been someone that cares too much for command line interfaces.  To me, it's kind of like buying a fancy new car, only to find out that you have to get out and start it with a hand crank or something.  I know a lot of old-time UNIX gurus who all seem to love this kind of stuff.  But not me.  I would rather spend my time recording something than typing something.  For one thing, I'm very a lousy typist.

     

    Also, with many of the various programs and audio/MIDI interfaces that I've been messing around with in Ubuntu Studio, it was never very obvious what you were supposed to do to make these nice little toys actually work.  Simply RTFM provided me with most of (but not all) the answers I needed.  But again, most musician types aren't real keen on delving into long, wordy, technical user manuals (including yours truly).  But they get by with using their DAWS because they can most usually kind of figure out what they need to do but just by looking at it and kind of playing around with their things.  Case in point:  My step-son.  He has a pretty nice DAW but he's that kind of person who will NEVER read any kind of an owbers manual.  But he has recorded many very nice sounding songs on his DAW and even did a great job with the mixing.  One might ask, how is that even possible?  Because with most commercial-based Windows and/or Mac software, the software developers spent a lot of time and they do extensive R&D and even use focus groups in order to assure that their software is as user friendly as possible.  Because with commercial software, it's a competitive thing.  Nobody usually likes paying big bucks for something that is confusing and/or has a hidious learning curve (although there's some commercial software out there like that, LOL).  So they design their interfaces in a way in which a person can pretty much figure things out just by looking at it, reading tool-tips, and by just sort of clicking around on things. My step-son told me that's exactly how he learned to use Cakewalk Sonar, LOL!

     

    But with those Linux apps?  No way!!  You're going to have to spend a lot of time reading manuals, typing in long-assed commands, and etc.  Why is that?  Because when someone is developing free software, they're usually just trying to come up with something which works very well and is stable.  They're not going to cow-tow (spelling?) to people that are too lazy to read a manual.  Plus, most of the time even their manuals are extremely cryptic to read.  And that's because these programmers are persons who are very technical, and they a whole lot about what they are doing.  And, they really just don't feel like having to explain everything in pure layman's terms.  I mean come on!  I'm giving this out for free!  Why should I have to also try and explain everything.  Either figure it out yourselves, or just don't use it.  They have no commercial "motivation" at all.

     

    There are some other negative experiences that I encountered.  But I've already made this thread way too long and so I doubt that anyone will even bother reading, LOL!.  But I just wanted to relate some of the things that I experienced personally.  I still think Linux is great!  But I'm just not so sure that it's quite "musician friendly" yet, IMHO.

  • Karl_Houseknecht Expert Line 6 User 3,732 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    100. Mar 23, 2010 5:29 PM (in response to DoctorWu)
    Re: Lack of support for Linux

    On the positive front, my wife's computer contracted it's last Windows virus ever.  I say last because I got so fed up with her Windows machine (and only hers, because mine NEVER gets infected) getting viruses, trojans, etc, even though it was protected on multiple fronts (because she's not quite savvy enough to know what is safe and what isn't) that I wiped out her machine and gave Ubuntu 9.10 a try.

     

    To my surprise, it detected all of her hardware on the first try, which is a damn sight better than it did the last time I tried installing it (somwhere around 7 or 8...Gutsy Gibbon?  The cutesy animal names are too much for me.)  Video card, network, and even sound all worked out of the box.  She was already used to OpenOffice, Firefox, and Thunderbird, which was pretty much all she used in Windows anyway.  So she actually likes it!  For her, this is the perfect operating system.  She really wants a laptop, so I might surprise he on her birthday with a good, inexpensive, $300 laptop and put Ubuntu on it.  Then she can surf the web wirelessly until her heart's content.

  • DoctorWu Just Startin' 398 posts since
    Jan 27, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    102. Mar 24, 2010 10:01 AM (in response to Karl_Houseknecht)
    Re: Lack of support for Linux

    Karl,

     

    You know, that's an excellent idea for me as well because my wife is exactly the same way.  If anything says "Click on me" she clicks on it, LOL!   The desktop PC we have in our home office has a 1 Terabyte hard drive.  So there's plenty of room to make it a dual-boot system.  She won't get any viruses using Linux, that's for sure.

  • DoctorWu Just Startin' 398 posts since
    Jan 27, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    104. Mar 24, 2010 11:04 AM (in response to captainbob)
    Re: Lack of support for Linux

    captianbob,

     

    Actually, I did get everything to work except the Intel wireless card in my HP laptop.    The Jack module seemed to work great because I did try it out with a couple of the software synthesizers and a couple of audio/mixer things of which their names seem to escape me at the moment.  Again, I have way too much time and money invested into my Windows based DAW, so I'm not seriously considering making the switch to Linux at this point.   But IT has been my "day job" and profession for 20 years now and therefore I'm just kind of an incurable computer nerd, LOL!   I love playing around with different Linux distros just for fun.  There's some fantastic stuff out there and it always blows my mind that it's free.

     

    BTW, there's no reason to tip your hat to me for getting Jack working because it was actually one of the things that worked right off the bat.  I think it has to do with the fact that each individual computer model is wildly different and what may work great in Linux with one may not work at all in another.  I really wanted/needed to get my wireless card working on my laptop so I did a lot of online research, mostly on the Ubuntu forums but others as well.  Again, it always amazes me how all these Linux experts that frequent those forums know all this really, really complicated command line stuff.  How in the heck do they remember all those commands.  And it's not like any of it even resembles any plain English (or whatever language) words.  Just a bunch of jibberish to me.  That has been the major stumbling block for me regarding whether or not I should seriously make the switch to Linux.

     

    If everything is working fine with a Linux distro, that's great!   It's a stable OS, it's really cool and innovated, and it's free.  But if you ever start to have problems, and eventually you will, there's almost never a quick simple fix for it.  To fix it always seems to require an extensive knowledge of the Linux command line terminal interface, as I've already mentioned here.  Not only do I not have time to learn all of these hundreds of cryptic commands, I really don't even want to.  As a result,  anytime I've had problems with one of my Linux distros, my only solution was to completely rebuild the OS from scratch.  Not good. 

     

    I rarely, if ever, have to rebuild any of my Windows based PCs.  Of course, I have a very nice advantage of being a seasoned pro per Windows based systems.  I'm not saying that I never have any problems Windows.  It's just that I can always find the problem and fix it fairly quick and without the need to completely re-image my PC.  The issue I'm having with my Wireless driver not working in Ubuntu Karmic (9.10) is a prime example.  First of all, I've never had any problems with this particular wireless card before, and I think it's one of the best ones I've ever used actually (Intel Wireless 5300).  But after reading all this stuff these guys on the Ubuntu forums have posted, it's like their personal opinion is that this is just not a very good wireless card, or it has a bug or something.  Again, I'd never had any problems it before.   But I've printed out page after page of postings/suggestions from those Ubuntu forums.  I've also typed in line after line of lengthy Linux commands and switches (as per their suggestions); but nothing so far has worked.  The wireless card still does not work.  In fact, the problem appears to be even worse, as my laptops doesn't seem to see the wireless card at all at this point.

     

    I certainly hope this doesn't sound like I'm poking fun of Linux, or that I don't think it's very good and etc.  I'm still very impress with a lot of things about it.  But I just don't ever see myself making the switch; at least not until they make it a little more user friendly.  And BTW, they've made leaps and bounds in that area over the last few years.  I can definitely say that!! 

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