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2666 Views 27 Replies Latest reply: Dec 28, 2012 9:21 AM by raderb36 RSS
eraker Just Startin' 4 posts since
Sep 16, 2010
Currently Being Moderated

Nov 16, 2010 3:03 PM

Boominess

Is that a word? (Colbert, please help...)

 

Anyway, I seem to have a problem in that my new POD HD500 sounds kinda boomy with a number of the high gain amps. The boominess is particularly audible if you try to palm mute using the rectifier, and also the engle and uberschalls. I have tried various forms of amplification - line level out into the power section for three different tube amps, and also through the usb into my mac running logic and self powered studio monitors.

 

I also find that some of the speaker settings are vastly unrealistic. For example, the difference between a cabinet based on v30s and the Marshall 4x12 (75w GT) is very radical with the Marshall cab being extremely boomy. This is particularly audible if you use a different amp running into the Marshall cab.

 

In reality, the Marshall cab has some more bottom end than most cabs, but the difference is not nearly as extreme as what is suggested by the POD. (I have a real one and also a Randall with v30s).

 

Has anyone had a similar experience? Solutions?

  • Nick_Mattocks Best of the Best 9,065 posts since
    Mar 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2010 1:02 AM (in response to eraker)
    Re: Boominess

    Hi

     

    Firstly: what have you set the HD500's output to?

    Secondly: are you using FULL or PRE amp models?

     

    I ask because obviously those things are key to how your HD500 will sound.

     

    I have had an HD500 since June and have found that it sounds great and very accurate through pretty much anything I put it through IF I choose the correct options.   Sure i can make it sound 'boomy' if I make incorrect choices for what I'm putting it through.

     

    For instance if I'm going direct to PA, I choose the Studio/Direct output option in the HD500 and I use FULL amp models.   If on the other hand, I'm plugging in to the Power Amp Input on my two Spider Valve amps, I would choose Combo Power Amp In and I would use the PRE amp models.

     

    If I'm going in say via my Marshall JCM2000 TSL100's front input I'd set the Marshall to the Clean channel and everything else to mid-way (12 o'clock) to get as 'flat' a frequency response as possible, and because I'm going through the front input and out through a Marshall 4x12 loaded with Celestion G12T75 speakers, I'd probably probably turn cab modelling off in my POD HD500 presets and I'd use PRE amp models or possibly no amp models at all depending on what I wanted (realistically, I personally would not be going in via the front inputs of a Marshall  - I'd use the FX Return, but that's just the way I'd do it).   I'd set the HD500 output to Stack Front.

     

    Using say a Marshall JCM800 amp (pre or full) model into a Marshall amp which is attached to a genuine Marshall 4x12 with Celestion G12T75s in it and then overlaying a modelled cab loaded with 'virtual' G12T75s is going to sound wrong because you're overlaying a model onto the real thing and therefore exaggerating the effect - which I would find would lead to boominess.

     

    Now - it's interesting to read your comments about the 'unrealistic' sound of the cab modelling.   I find exactly the opposite IF you handle all the output modes and what you're inputting to correctly.  I have a Marshall 4x12 loaded with G12T75 speakers like the model in the HD500 and I have other speaker cabs too.  In the real world using my Marshall TSL100 or JVM205H heads, and with the settings left the same for testing, the Marshall 4x12 DOES sound somewhat quieter than my other cabs, and this is actually mirrored correctly in the HD500.  My other cabs have V30's, G12K100, Eminence and EV speakers in them.

     

    As I said, I find the amp and cab models in the HD500 extremely accurate, but your mileage may vary depending on your expectations - which from my own personal experience regarding my own expectations is not necessarily a reflection of reality.  It's easy to sometimes forget exactly what the real thing actually sounds like in isloation, and that being the case when I hear a model of an amp in isloation I can be fooled into thinking that it doesn't sound quite right in that it might sound a bit too 'boomy' or 'toppy' and it's only when I get to a situation where I actually have the real thing to hand that I actually am forced into modifying my perception of what the model should sound like because there it is right in front of me - real amp pitted against virtual amp, and you know what?  99 times out of 100 my memory is slightly out of whack and the model is a lot closer to the real thing than I think.

     

    The models in the HD500 are in my opinion very realistic and very close indeed to what has been modelled.  In a blind A/B comparison I think most people would be very hard pressed to tell the difference between the real thing and the model - which isn't saying quite the same as the difference between your real amp and the model necessarily, but between the actual amp modelled and the model of that amp.   Remember that with ALL amps any two examples will almost certainly sound a little different because of various factors such as speaker wear and tear, minor manufacturing modificaations, after makerket modifications, component tolerances, component wear and tear and maybe the exact values/tolerances of capacitors or gauge of copper wire used in the circuit (I don't think amp manufacturers were that fussy over stuff like that - they used what was available to keep production lines running).  Line 6 have a range of real amps in their labs that they have sought out and purchased because they believe those amps to be both authentic and because they sound great.  It may be that some of the amps that have been modelled, that minor after market modifications have been made, but that those modifications are considered an improvement - unfortunately or fortunately whichever way you look at it, that's the nature of vintage amplifiers - they may have been repaired or modified over the years.  In all honesty, the lengths these guys at Line 6 go to to get the real authentic sound of whatever they are modelling - even down to the hum you get with a Class A amp, is second to none.

     

    Nick

        • shockwave199 Just Startin' 171 posts since
          Apr 10, 2009
          Currently Being Moderated
          Jan 18, 2011 10:52 PM (in response to eraker)
          Re: Boominess

          "Quick update: Just as I had written this I was able to play it through a really good PA in a band rehersal. I must say that was impressive. It sounded REALLY good. Much better than I expected almost as good as my live rig (Peavey JSX, running a Gmajor in the loop)."

           

          You might be onto something. I don't have an HD yet- only an XTL with a variax. It's as though pods are really meant to be used direct in with PA speakers to get the best sound out of them- or direct into the studio console over quality studio monitors. I do ok going into the front of a fender amp on gigs, but it's not nearly optimal and I have to turn all amp and cab modeling off and flatten out the amp. And the variax much prefers PA speaker amplification too. The variax acoustics sound fan-freakin-tastic through the pod coming out of the PA. Out of my fender....sucks. I'm really considering powered PA speakers for my guitar rig. Not the bands PA- my own speakers. The pod offers so much, I don't think you really need anything more than powered, full range PA speakers to get the best results, whether we're talking an XTL or and HD. I think pods as a whole were meant to be used just that way. Not through amps. And there isn't a chance I'd lay down serious bucks on a DT-50 to get so-so results in pod sound. More and more, it's coming out of the PA that sounds the best.

          • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
            Dec 13, 2007
            Currently Being Moderated
            Jan 19, 2011 10:08 AM (in response to shockwave199)
            Re: Boominess

            Does anyone use real high gain and real high bass and find that palm mutes (mostly on the lowest A, Bb, and B) can cause a kind of feedback sound, almost like you're driving a cheap sub-woofer too hard?  I find this is particularly apparent when the amp volume knob is turned up high.  Master, Mixer, and FX loop boosting don't seem to cause the problem as much.  Or is everyone's boominess just that they're getting too much 120 - 250 HZ?

             

            Also, here's some tips I've found to reduce boominess:

             

            1) turn down the distortion - otherwise palm mutes can be louder than your unmuted regular signal.  they already have much more bass.  so they can easily cause the problem I was having on otherwise good patches.  this is the best approach, because you don't have to dial out any bass - you get more or less the same tone but without problems on palm mutes.

            2) turn down the bass

            3) try a different cab model - the XXL V-30 has tons of bass - more than all the other cabs.  I generally try to use the Uber 4x12 instead.  The midrange response is different, but it definitely has less bass and boom.

            4) Use the "pre" version instead of the "full" version of the amp model - The full models tend to have more bass, but the pre's can sound a little thin without tweaking.  I like to make two patches side by side, one with full and the other pre, then i try to make the pre sound like the full.  you can dial in nearly the exact same tone, but you have more control over the bass.

            4) try a different mic - I generally stick to the SM57 on axis.  I was using off axis, but it kind of muffles the sound.  I find I can dial in the best patches with on axis, but I do have to tweak.  The SM57 definitely is stronger on mids and highs than bass.  Moreover, it can sound muddier than other mics.  That's just the nature of the beast.  you may have to...

            5) use a parametric EQ to cut bass - I find setting the frequency to 20% and cutting can eliminate boom.  try anywhere between 10% and 25%.

            • deejones Just Startin' 24 posts since
              Mar 27, 2007
              Currently Being Moderated
              Jan 19, 2011 11:34 AM (in response to meambobbo)
              Re: Boominess

              "Does anyone use real high gain and real high bass and find that palm mutes (mostly on the lowest A, Bb, and B) can cause a kind of feedback sound, almost like you're driving a cheap sub-woofer too hard?  I find this is particularly apparent when the amp volume knob is turned up high.  Master, Mixer, and FX loop boosting don't seem to cause the problem as much.  Or is everyone's boominess just that they're getting too much 120 - 250 HZ?"

               

              Yes, but I thought the farting sound may have been at a lower frequency, but that was my ear. I was thinking around 40-80ish. I noticed that when I use the pre-amp's and I turn the "amp volume" up to high, I get this. If I don't turn it past like 40-60%, then no issue as far as I can tell. Also, make sure yo are using the proper output setting to match the type of amp you have, and how you are connecting to it. I found this extremely helpful after connecting my POD to several different amps. Just waiting to get it into a PA now.

              • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
                Dec 13, 2007
                Currently Being Moderated
                Jan 19, 2011 3:26 PM (in response to deejones)
                Re: Boominess

                I finally feel like I'm not crazy.  THANK YOU DEEJONES!!!!!

                • jeff5x0 Just Startin' 197 posts since
                  Sep 14, 2008
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Jan 19, 2011 3:31 PM (in response to meambobbo)
                  Re: Boominess

                  So are we saying that when the amp volume of the Pod (not the master) is turned up say past 60% that it DOES affect the sound and more specifically the bass range? Thats interesting. I was getting the low flabby sounds on the recto. I will check into this tonight.

      • Irotlas Just Startin' 47 posts since
        Oct 14, 2009
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jan 17, 2011 7:27 AM (in response to eraker)
        Re: Boominess

        I agree 100%. There is just way too much bass on pretty much everything. There is something really wrong with the cabs and they desperately need some improvements. The amp modeling it self is pretty good, but not the bass. If I play with some cab IR's that are perfect with axe fx, the sound is alot better, but too much bass....POD HD500 is a perfect unit for me otherwise but Line6 must do some updates for the cabs and the amp bass knob. I've done a comparison with real mesa dual recto. pod trough recto (cabs off etc.) The sound is REALLY great and close to real recto, you really cant tell the difference between them, other than the pod has more (too much) bass

        • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
          Dec 13, 2007
          Currently Being Moderated
          Jan 18, 2011 9:26 AM (in response to Irotlas)
          Re: Boominess

          I find the XXL V-30 has tons of bass, but it can be dialed out on the amp model.  All the other 4x12 cabs sound like they don't have enough bass to me!  Oh and I always use the SM57, usually off axis.  That tends to pump a bunch of mids in the tone.

           

          And I do agree that the cabs are too different, in volume, in EQ, and in tone.  I guess that's kind of the point, but I don't want them to sound so different.  I have to spend 5 - 10 minutes every time I switch cabs to compensate for EQ.  Then I don't remember what the old sound sounded like...

           

          http://line6.com/community/thread/54411

           

          Here's some clips I recorded to compare the X3 and HD for metal.  I used the XXL V-30 with SM57 off axis.  I wouldn't say they're too boomy.  Would you?

    • Gessinger10 Just Startin' 27 posts since
      Nov 24, 2010
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 18, 2011 10:28 AM (in response to Nick_Mattocks)
      Re: Boominess

      I'll put my experience and evaluate:
      My amp is a small Marshall GR15 no effects loop, I tried all combinations, and the best I got is to connect the POD HD300 in the input, set the POD Studio and AMP. With these settings, AMP + CAB + MIC, the tone is great....

      • Lution777 Just Startin' 62 posts since
        May 24, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jan 18, 2011 10:45 AM (in response to Gessinger10)
        Re: Boominess

        Gessinger10, I am confused about your setup. You cannot choose Studio and Amp for your output. It's either one or the other. Which one are you using? Or are you saying that it sounds good through either type of output setting?

         

        I'll speak more from my experience working with the HD for gig level sound. This is trying all output options: Into the front of my Bogner Shiva, too much tone coloration. Sounded weak and thin. Into the FX return of my Bogner Shiva, still too much coloration (the amp's fault - the Shiva Power section is not perfectly clean and flat). Into the FX loop of my Peavey Transformer combo, Wayyyyy too much high end and shrill sounding. Into a Tech21 Power Engine 60 combo, not bad, getting there, but not enough volume for gigs. The Power Engine started flubbing out (too much bass) at higher spls.

         

        Finally, into what I'm currently using, an RCF ART 312-A powered FRFR. Sounding the best so far. Still very boomy bass sounds at gig level volume. This is what I'm currently working through.

        • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
          Jan 24, 2007
          Currently Being Moderated
          Jan 18, 2011 10:52 AM (in response to Lution777)
          Re: Boominess

          I think he wrote that he has an HD300...HD300/400 have Dual Mode...I might have it backwards but Left Becomes the LIVE output and Right becomes the Studio Output...The soft output mode setting only affects Live Mode and the Live side of Dual Mode...

          • Gessinger10 Just Startin' 27 posts since
            Nov 24, 2010
            Currently Being Moderated
            Jan 18, 2011 12:55 PM (in response to spaceatl)
            Re: Boominess

            Well then help me understand:
            I define AMP button so on UMBALANCED and  STUDIO mode. I turn on the cable L / MONO and input from Marshall. Great tone.

            • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
              Jan 24, 2007
              Currently Being Moderated
              Jan 18, 2011 1:06 PM (in response to Gessinger10)
              Re: Boominess

              2*6 in the Advanced Manual...Perhaps this will help...The same is true for the 400...The 500 does NOT do this...

               

               

               

               

               

              DUAL Mode (POD HD300):

               

               

               

              This option offers more performance flexibility, routing the LIVE Mode signal to the left BALANCED & UNBALANCED outputs and a great sounding mic’d amp tone to the right BALANCED & UNBALANCED outputs. This allows you to send a mono signal tailored for a guitar amp, while simultaneously routing a mono mic’d cab signal to a mixer or recorder!

               

               

               

              • Gessinger10 Just Startin' 27 posts since
                Nov 24, 2010
                Currently Being Moderated
                Jan 18, 2011 1:20 PM (in response to spaceatl)
                Re: Boominess

                Correct, but the way that I utlize STUDIO will taxi and mic sim to the input of the amp, after all with the recommended settings, LIVE mode, not getting good tone.

                • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
                  Jan 24, 2007
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Jan 18, 2011 1:46 PM (in response to Gessinger10)
                  Re: Boominess

                  Not sure I understand your post...I think you have to use a dummy plug to pull off Dual Mode properly with a balanced out...

                   

                  Output Switch: Dual Mode

                  Left Unbal Out: to the guitar amp

                  Right Unbal Out: dummy plug or run to DAW Input

                   

                  Right Bal Out: DAW Input...

                   

                  If this doesn't help, maybe you should post your own thread as a question so we don't digress this one too much...

                  • Gessinger10 Just Startin' 27 posts since
                    Nov 24, 2010
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Jan 18, 2011 2:05 PM (in response to spaceatl)
                    Re: Boominess

                    I think you do not understand, but that's how I use the POD to connect to the amp. STUDIO MODE, cable to output L and input amp.

                    • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
                      Jan 24, 2007
                      Currently Being Moderated
                      Jan 18, 2011 7:34 PM (in response to Gessinger10)
                      Re: Boominess

                      You are right...Not sure that I understand all of what you are doing...

                       

                      Not sure if that is your only connection as your posts are a bit sparse on content...If you are running into the power amp input of a guitar amp, then I can see why it might sound bad...

                       

                      I would suggest that you put the 300 in LIVE mode and set the soft menu ouput option to COMBO PWR AMP...

  • Lution777 Just Startin' 62 posts since
    May 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 18, 2011 9:57 AM (in response to eraker)
    Re: Boominess

    I would agree that there is massively too much bass across the board for all the amp models that make them very difficult to tame for gig-level volumes using just the amp controls. This makes the tones sound great at lower listening volumes, but when I run my HD500 through my RCF ART-312A FRFR powered monitor to tweak my tones at gig level volumes, I find that I'm turning the bass knob all the way down and there is still too much bass. So I dig into the EQs, which take up one of the 8 effects blocks, and attempt to compensate there. When all is said and done, the tone mojo for the amp is massaged into a fragile shell of it's former self simply to tame the bass.

     

    I also agree that it seems like Line 6 went out of their way to over-exagerate the tonal differences for the cabs and mics. There is no way that the cab and mic tonal characteristic changes experienced through the HD is as it sounds in real life. I speak my thoughts coming from experience with several different sizes, shapes, types of cabs and speaker configurations as well as several different mic setups in my studio.

     

    I'm glad there are lots of flavors available, but the flavors are MUCH too drastically different, for my taste. I'm making it work for now, but it does get a bit frustrating.

    • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
      Dec 13, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 18, 2011 9:57 AM (in response to Lution777)
      Re: Boominess

      I'm listening to some clips some more, and I think I see what you are saying - it's not exactly deep bass or the whole low-end spectrum, more like 200-300 HZ, and it does seem to dominate the tone a bit, especially at higher volumes.

       

      I also agree about the cabs between too drastically different, particularly in volume and EQ.

       

      http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/?topicSelected=3

       

      We should all leave feedback, so this gets addressed.

    • variableresults Just Startin' 78 posts since
      Oct 7, 2010
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 19, 2011 7:02 PM (in response to Lution777)
      Re: Boominess

      Lution777 wrote:

       

      I would agree that there is massively too much bass across the board for all the amp models that make them very difficult to tame for gig-level volumes using just the amp controls. This makes the tones sound great at lower listening volumes, but when I run my HD500 through my RCF ART-312A FRFR powered monitor to tweak my tones at gig level volumes, I find that I'm turning the bass knob all the way down and there is still too much bass. So I dig into the EQs, which take up one of the 8 effects blocks, and attempt to compensate there. When all is said and done, the tone mojo for the amp is massaged into a fragile shell of it's former self simply to tame the bass.

       

      I also agree that it seems like Line 6 went out of their way to over-exagerate the tonal differences for the cabs and mics. There is no way that the cab and mic tonal characteristic changes experienced through the HD is as it sounds in real life. I speak my thoughts coming from experience with several different sizes, shapes, types of cabs and speaker configurations as well as several different mic setups in my studio.

       

      I'm glad there are lots of flavors available, but the flavors are MUCH too drastically different, for my taste. I'm making it work for now, but it does get a bit frustrating.

       

      +1 on the exaggerated cab sims.  Just do a comparison direct between the HD cabs and some of the RedWirez cabs with the same mics.  The RedWirez cabs sound much more neutral in all the frequencies, where the HD cabs have exaggerated mids, low-mids and lows.  You can find some comparison clips I did for TGP here: 

       

      I don't feel like the boominess is in the preamp models at all.  There may be some in the poweramp models depending on what amp it is (I notice that some of the more vintage amps get really farty on low notes, almost like a fuzz).

       

      Here is the comparison I did:  http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=9264091&postcount=31

       

      The reason I used the RedWirez cabs is because they're typically regarded as the best IRs out there right now (and the Greenback cab was free ).  This wasn't meant to be an "ZOMG THEY SLAYZ THE HD" thread, but rather a means to point out how muffled the HD cabs are in my mind.

      • jeff5x0 Just Startin' 197 posts since
        Sep 14, 2008
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jan 19, 2011 7:33 PM (in response to variableresults)
        Re: Boominess

        Thanks for the comparisons. Youre right about the cab sims. But on a completely different note, Dude upload that JTM patch! If its uploaded already, whats it under? Im looking for a sound close to that to mimic Lincoln Brewster. Great tone!

        • variableresults Just Startin' 78 posts since
          Oct 7, 2010
          Currently Being Moderated
          Jan 19, 2011 7:54 PM (in response to jeff5x0)
          Re: Boominess

          jeff5x0 wrote:

           

          Thanks for the comparisons. Youre right about the cab sims. But on a completely different note, Dude upload that JTM patch! If its uploaded already, whats it under? Im looking for a sound close to that to mimic Lincoln Brewster. Great tone!

          I'd love to, but I did that comparison over a month ago and I think the patch is toast.  Keep in mind that you'd be getting the HD tone, not the RedWirez tone, obviously   I'll see if I can recreate it...

  • deejones Just Startin' 24 posts since
    Mar 27, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 18, 2011 7:05 PM (in response to eraker)
    Re: Boominess

    Bomminess? Hmm? I am using the HD500 with a JSX and two 4x12 400w cabs, and I haven't the slightest complaint about boominess. In fact with some of the pre-amps I have had to add a little more bass from time to time to round the sound out a little more, mainly at high volumes. But hey this is all subjective anyway.

    • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
      Dec 13, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 18, 2011 7:18 PM (in response to deejones)
      Re: Boominess

      i should have mentioned that when i go into my cabinet, it sounds fine.  It's more on the cab models in my mind, but I do think it's more subtle than some feel.

  • raderb36 Just Startin' 1 posts since
    Dec 1, 2012
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 28, 2012 9:21 AM (in response to eraker)
    Re: Boominess

    While this an older thread, I wanted to share something I found today.  I had the same issue with boominess playing in Studio/Direct mode through a PA.  I found that by adjusting the Low Cut frequency in the Cab Parameters setting made world of difference.  Good luck.

    POD Editor.jpg

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