Jan 12, 2011 8:57 AM
Stereo amp/cab solution for HD500 ?
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After I have squeezed all the sounds from my M13, I decided to go to the pods HD500.
I took my new HD500 and for now I'm very satisfied.
I use a lot of modulation effects, so I get the best sound using two different amps in stereo.
I thought about buying the DT50 212, but then I saw that it can not operate in stereo mode.
What might be the best solution?
A power amp with two cab, using the models of HD pod?
Two little amps used in flat mode?
If you want the most tonal variety, you could get two tech 21 power engines or atomic reactors. These amps are meant to have full range speakers, I think, so you could use different cab models on each amp in the HD and the tone would be preserved. You could also get a stereo power amp and two guitar cabs, but then you'd probably have to use the "no cab" option on both amps, which makes your rig a little less versatile.
Having used the Atomic before, I can certainly vouch for its quality. However, if you are looking to come out alive with your wallet, any powered PA would do you. For the money, Behringer offers several different units in varying sizes. All self powered.
Thanks for the replies.
I'm lookng the Tech 21 Power Engines and seems to be a good solution.
Now I try to better understand the other solutions, do you have any specific product to recommend me ?
Thanks!
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B212D-WH.aspx
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B208D-WH.aspx
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B210D-WH.aspx
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B215A.aspx
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B315A.aspx
Just a few examples. Colors aren't always what the picture shows.
It seems that the best solution for me is the Tech 21 Power Engines: both for studio and small live...
...and the prices look good.
I'm looking for pair of Tech 21 Power Engines 60 cabinet 1x12 or a single Tech 21 Power Engines 60 cabinet 2x12...
...probably two cabs 1x12 is the best to a good stereo sound.
The Atomic are too expensive (for me)
How many other solutions have you looked at? Not that Tech21 is bad, but it doesn't seem like you've looked at a lot of options.
Referring to the comparison of Tech21, Atomic and Behringer...
...Tech21 seems the best solution ... Atomic is too expensive and Behringer does not seem to be the best for live performances also.
I'm looking for other solutions, particularly among active cabinet.
Stereo effects sound best with wider separation between the speakers. So I'd go with 2 1x12's over 1 2x12. For the price you definitely won't beat the tech 21 - but also note that there are two variants of the power engine - one uses a celestion speaker and one uses a tech 21 speaker. I believe the tech 21 is preferable as it has a more full response, like a general purpose speaker, whereas the celestion sounds more like ...celestion.
Don't take my opinions on this - I don't own one.
The main question is: power amp + cabs, or, active cabinet / monitor ?
Whereas it should be a good solution both for studio or small live/club
For ease of setup I'd go with a pair of actives. Less stuff to worry about.
For now my first choice is a pair of Tech21 Power Engine 60 112 connected to the pod HD500 with balanced XLR cables.
I made my choice: a pair of Tech21 Power Engine 60 112
I have studied several solutions, including DIY, Tech21 is the choice of the optimal solution.
Thanks to meambobbo for his first suggestion!
Did you figure out which variant you want to get (Celestion speaker vs. Tech 21 speaker)? I'm betting the Tech 21 speaker has a flatter response than the Celestion, but I am actually curious to hear the difference. I believe the Celestion is the stock speaker now, whereas the Tech 21 speaker used to be stock. The Celestion seems to have a wider frequency response than most guitar speakers, but it is nowhere close to being flat.
Check out this thread:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=662696
And this one:
http://www.setbb.com/axefx/viewtopic.php?p=25432&sid=df1c6e9711be1c4cd63a459a4aba5ec5&mforum=axefx
And here:
http://line6.com/community/message/126059
Also, check out this graph of frequency responses:
That Beyma isn't stock in any Power Engine to my knowledge. I think the older ones used a Tech 21 2112-A. From what I've read, people using the Power Engine in a manner similar to a monitor (Studio Direct output mode with cab and mic simulation on the Pod) seem to prefer the 2112-A over the Celestion.
Depending on the speaker, I would use them differently. For a Celestion, I'd most likely run the Pod in "Stack Power Amp" output mode, and first try "no cab" then try other cabs. In this mode, the cab acts more like an EQ than a true speaker simulation. For the Tech 21 speaker, which I believe has a much flatter response, I would use "Studio/Direct" output mode, and definitely NOT use "no cab".
In my opinion, getting one with a Celestion kind of defeats the purpose of getting one of these, which is to allow you to let the Pod simulate a wide variety of speakers.
Then again, here's a good review of the Power Engine, specifically geared towards the Pod XT (note he doesn't specify which speaker his has, but part of it says "This review is from: Tech 21 PW-60/212 60W, 2x12 powered cabinet with Celestion speakers (Electronics)"):
And I'd also like to point out that just because the Celestion speaker seems to be the stock speaker now, you can still find new (unused) Power Engines with the Tech 21 speaker:
Yes this is in fact the only question that remains.
I want to use my HD500 POD simulations using amp and cab simulation.
Unfortunately in Europe i'm not able to find a Power Engine 60 with 2112 speaker... and from the USA it's impossible to ship it in Europe.
So for now, the Power Engine 60 with celestion still seems the best solution (I do not want to use PA monitor, i'm looking for active cab)
let's pretend i'm in europe too and not just up at 5:25 AM for no good reason.
i'd say demo one first just to make sure the cab sims don't make it too harsh. You may want to put an EQ in your presets or use the bass/mid/treble controls on the power engine to compensate.
Finally it looks like those Beyma speakers are made in Spain, so you might be able to find them easier and cheaper over there. If you did switch you could sell the Celestion and it probably wouldn't be too expensive on net - still far cheaper than getting an Atomic.
After you have had some time to set the Tech21's up and get used to them, how about a write up letting us know what you did, and how it's working for you. Also, are you planning on mic'ing the cabs, or do they have an xlr out to feed to FOH? I am in the early stages of looking at these, as well as the other cabs you mentioned, too. I would be interested in hearing from you once you mess around with them for a bit.
Also, which speakers did you get with yours? From what I have read recently, Tech21 is using a different Celestion in their cabs now. I have always liked Celestion, but the other articles I have read certainly make sense to go the flatter response speaker for this application.
Jeff
Jeff, you can daisy chain multiple power engines using the XLR out, as well as run to the front of house.
I did a test with a Tech21 Power Engine of a friend and I must say that I still have some doubts.
Talking to my friend, we realized that the Tech21 has a speaker designed for use with guitar, then using the speaker simulation of POD you still have a double filtering.
So if using the Tech21 power engine I need to switch off the cabs simulation of POD.
To use, however, the amp & cab simulation may only remain active monitors from PA.
I think to do another test tomorrow...
I have made a strong test and I finally decided to take a couple of Tech21 Power Engine 60!
Sweet! So you tested on the Celestions then? Any idea how the 70 80 speaker compares to a vintage 30?
I'll probably try to get the same rig sooner or later. I've been thinking about trying to find a Spider Valve 1x12, mostly bc it has a vintage 30 and is fairly cheap and is a tube amp, PLUS it doesn't require any external gear to dial in a sound (so it's quite portable). But if the power engine can put me in the same ball park for that much cheaper, it's hard to pass up. I still have my XT live and X3 live, so it's not like I'm short on pre-amps.
After I ordered the boxes, the dealer called me and told me that they will not be available for two months! ![]()
This seems like the never ending story!
However perhaps, it's better that way.
Doing some more research and testing, I've seen that maybe a better solution is to use a power amplifier + two passive speakers.
For passive speakers I would use custom cab with Fane Crescendo speakers.
For the power amp i'm still looking...
I've only heard good things about VHT/Fryette power amps. I'd have one already if they weren't so expensive. I have a Mesa 2:95, which is similar to a Strategy - 4 rack spaces, more-or-less transparent; there are presence knobs but I keep them on 100%; no voicing options. It's a great power amp, and if you can find one they probably aren't too expensive.
Yes Fryette power amps are very very good!
...but too expensive!
I'm looking for something less expensive...
Hi Folks,
Just found this threat and thought to join in the discussion. I have been using the tech21 power engine 2x12 with a XT live for some time now and have just upgraded to the hd500. My experience with the powerengine has been that it can be quite ‘harsh’ at times. Especially if pushing the volume. Kind of like a mid to high grit.(maybe its just the nature of solid state?) That might just be that I needed to spend more time tweaking the tone for higher volumes.
I have not have a chance to really give the hd500 a good run through the PE60 but I am very happy with initial tests. Now for the first time I have a dual amp(model) setupavailable and only one amp J
So…. Looking to expand but have the same problem,, cant find another 2x12 PE60 (based in Ireland) Do you think using the PE60 1x12 alongside a the PE2x12 would be ok as for a stereo setup?
Gonna play around with switching off cab sims as well and see how it responds….
Apologies,, not too useful but wanted to join the discussion J
Here is a good new video of the Tech 21 Power Engine 60 (1x12 Celestion) being used with HD 500:
He's getting great tones.
I have a PE 60 with the Tech 21 speaker and I've also owned one with the 70/80. Neither do well if you are trying to use the studio/direct mode. I've gotten the best tones by using the "combo pwr amp" mode. This presents a problem, however, with the hd500 since it is incapable of doing dual outputs like the hd400 can. It means that you are going to have to mic the PE60 for a live show if you want to go through the PA. I think I'm going to try a true FRFR solution like the QSC k10 or k12. That way, I'm getting a true replication onstage of whats going through the FOH.
tighttritenight wrote:
I've gotten the best tones by using the "combo pwr amp" mode. This presents a problem, however, with the hd500 since it is incapable of doing dual outputs like the hd400 can.
This doesnt sound right to me. I'm pretty sure my HD500 can do anything a HD400 can do, better.
The main attraction to the PE60 is that it looks like a regular guitar amp. I use a stereo PA with wedges, but it's somehow lacking in the looks department.
Amperzand wrote:
tighttritenight wrote:
I've gotten the best tones by using the "combo pwr amp" mode. This presents a problem, however, with the hd500 since it is incapable of doing dual outputs like the hd400 can.
This doesnt sound right to me. I'm pretty sure my HD500 can do anything a HD400 can do, better.
The main attraction to the PE60 is that it looks like a regular guitar amp. I use a stereo PA with wedges, but it's somehow lacking in the looks department.
Hey tighttritenight, I have to acknowlege you were right on this. I'm very suprised that the HD500 doesn't have this feature that the X3 Live had.
On page 2•5 of the POD HD500 Advanced Guide it says: "Note that this Mode setting affects the signal fed to several POD HD500 outputs: Balanced,
Unbalanced & Phones outputs as well as USB Record Send & L6 LINK audio outputs."
Whereas the POD X3 Live allowed Sudio signal to the XLR and Live signal the 1/4" outs, and yes the POD HD300 & HD400 allow this too, although in a lightly different way and in mono only.
I just don't understand how this slipped by Line 6 especially since the X3L, HD300 & 400 all have this feature. Anyways, I switched to the QSC K10 and its worked much better for me. Don't get me wrong, the PE60 is great at its price point, but I don't think you would ever be completely satisfied with it. My recommendation is to go FRFR if you plan on going direct to the PA, or get a traditional guitar cab and power amp if you want to mic your setup. I think you would be much happier with those 2 options. I'm selling my PE 60 though if you are interested.
I have a theory and Line6 ain't gonna like it very much. PodHD500 is the flavour designed to allow JTV (VDI) connection and also controls the DT-50. So to get the proper output to the front of house PA one would have to buy the DT50 and use the simulated output from the back of that because sending it from the PodHD500 isn't practicle nor a suitable option to send a Pre amp sim which is what you would be using if hooked up to a DT50.
This is a Line6 trait in that they give you everything you need in one solution, not.
On top of all that, you would need to buy 2 DT50s to get the stereo capabilities of the PodHD500 into the front of house PA. I am completely bemused by Line 6 to include the option of Studio Direct output from XLRs and direct from 1/4inch on the HD300 and HD400 and omit this on the HD500, in fact I'm now pretty damned annoyed if this is indeed true. I have been banging my head against the wall looking for solutions to this very thing and made various posts on this forum with such regard. So do I now have to buy a HD300 or 400 and get the M13 back out and run that in the pods loop (do they have a loop?) just so I can get the thing to work like my old X3Live.
markcockerill, I don't get what you are saying about the DT50. Is this for a "live" sound as well as a direct to PA sound?
If I were yall, I would set up my patches with a dual amp setup with identical settings on each amp. Pan one amp hard left and the other hard right. Now, on one of those amps, remove the cabinet simulation (choose no cab). Make sure you are in Studio Direct output mode. Now you have a "live" sound from the left (or right depending on setup) outputs and a direct sound from the right (or left) outputs.
Doing this will cause you to lose any stereo effects - each output is its own mono output.
Many thanks for your reply there meambobbo, it's a good fix that's for sure but not usable for me. You are right in assuming I play live and I am indeed trying to work out what the hell to do in that respect. As soon as I add a pitch shifter to do the Crazy Horses thing I will definitely get processor overload and that is just one example of the limitations. Post stereo effects being the other. I play some fairly big venues on occassions and always have a line to the desk, with my Vetta to X3 there were two. Only on the night would I choose to either centre both pans on the front of house desk or go left and right for that magical stereo using 2 amp sims. My point is that this has what Line 6 has traditionally offered us in the past and almost seems incredible that in the HD500 they have taken this away from us or buy two DT50s to achieve the same thing which is fundamentally ridiculous in my opinion, not withstanding the processor limitation on the HD500.
The quandry is that the HD500 sounds great and is a massive step in the right direction but seems it's only in that respect that it is for my personal needs. For me at least doesn't really work too well.
I have the money sat here to buy a DT-50 head and any other time I would have ordered it months ago, I am still argueing with myself about buying it and then make it work later. Maybe I should just bite the bullet, buy the amp and get used to an all mono system. In all my life, I have never been so undecided about buying gear. Line 6 is great stuff but they still refuse to make something that works for every single one of us all the time, they did once and it's called a Vetta. If they put valves into one of them and gave us HD modelling then I would not hesitate to spend another 2 grand on buying one.
It was for all the above reasons that I think Line6 are incredibly clever at leveraging our money from us over and over again by not making a total system that just works for all of us, of course that is my opinion. Of course I am a Line 6 fan but I strongly question some of the tactics they seem to employ.
X-Man,
Just to throw it out there, if you are looking for maybe even a custom solution to your quandry, I'd be happy to help. I have built in the past for a couple people a stereo 212 cab that has a space at the top for any rack effect or poweramp in your case. They have been built to accomodate 4 single space rack mounts or 2 double. Obviously this could be made to fit just about anything. Depending on budget you could go with a number of stereo power amps. I personally like Carvin TS100 tube, however I have used in the past an inexpensive Alesis RA100. That worked great! A non tube amp usually is better for playing at home because you don't have to push the amp to get the tone. Something around 100w non-tube would still be plenty for a small club too.
Here is a link to my site to see some of what I have done and have in the works. www.lydian-audio.com
Email me if you are interested or just want to ask some questions.
bsheen
bsheen, those are beautiful, very nice work! I could only dream of making such a nice finish and look.
I built two stereo guitar cabs a few years ago, for something to do, and in preparation for this stereo cab dilemna I knew would eventually come.
One is 2-12 and the other a 2-10. Both are sealed, and both have the left and right speakers sealed / isolated from each other (didn't want them sucking on each other). They sound great, especially when using both, heavy though, I went overboard with bracing, lol.
Here's a pic of the 2-10, i call it the yellow tiger, the 2-12 is black glossy.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd93/blasturd/speakers/2-10-front3.jpg
Lovely gear guys but I can't see any of them lasting two gigs in the back of our gig van
The finish would get dinged up a little, like anything else, but I think the other equipment in the van would take the beating, lol, that 2-10 weighs as much as a factory 4-12. My 2-12 weighs close to 2 of them. With 3/4 inch 7-ply birch plywood, 2x2" framing throughout, all glued and screwed. Probably 30 pounds alone in glue and screws. ![]()
Blasturd, nice work on the cab!
You might be correct about gigging with the Studio 112. Which is why it is marketed towards home/studio use or used as a "house" system. I am in the design stages of the Tour 212 which will be suitable for heavy travel.
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