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2487 Views 15 Replies Latest reply: Feb 10, 2011 4:53 AM by edstar1960 RSS
edstar1960 Iknowathingortwo
edstar1960
712 posts since
May 25, 2010
Currently Being Moderated

Aug 9, 2010 2:52 AM

X3 Live - way too much treble output

Is it just me?  Or does everyone else think that the X3 Live produces way too much treble output?

 

I have to tweak every patch to drastically reduce the treble output and also have to have treble turned way down (almost off) on my combo amp.

 

Would be interested in hearing everyone elses views/experiences - thanks.

  • Crusty_Old_Rocker Expert Line 6 User
    Crusty_Old_Rocker
    3,096 posts since
    Jan 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 9, 2010 2:59 AM (in response to edstar1960)
    Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

    Have you adjusted the tone correction settings on the live outputs to match your combo amp?

     

    That process is designed to use a global EQ to compensate the tone to suit a combo amp.

     

    The CORRECT settings are important when selecting your output device.

     

    I hope this is helpful.

     

    Cheers,

     

    Crusty

    • edstar1960 Iknowathingortwo
      edstar1960
      712 posts since
      May 25, 2010
      Currently Being Moderated
      Aug 9, 2010 3:29 AM (in response to Crusty_Old_Rocker)
      Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

      Thanks very much for the response Crusty.

       

      Yes - I have set the COMBO FRONT, HIGHS Parameter to it's maximum setting of "-100" and I still need to have my treble on the combo amp at about 2 out of 10.

       

      When using it direct into a PA or mixing desk with reference amp/monitors with flat EQ settings on the PA or mixer, then the output is far more usable but to my ears the output still seems too "thin" and "trebly" and could do with some "warming up" and some "depth".  Having heard so many good online demo's of the product I just imagined that the factory presets straight into a PA with flat eq would sound just as good so I have been disappointed that they don't, and frustrated that it seems to take far more than just a simple tweak of one or two parameters to get great sounds out of my own gear - in fact I am still not there yet so still perservering at that and hopeful that I will get there someday especially with all the help available on these extremely useful forums! 

       

      Thanks again!

      • Crusty_Old_Rocker Expert Line 6 User
        Crusty_Old_Rocker
        3,096 posts since
        Jan 24, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Aug 9, 2010 3:41 AM (in response to edstar1960)
        Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

        It really depends a lot on the tone stack of your combo too.

         

        Cheers,

         

        Crusty

        • edstar1960 Iknowathingortwo
          edstar1960
          712 posts since
          May 25, 2010
          Currently Being Moderated
          Aug 9, 2010 9:48 AM (in response to Crusty_Old_Rocker)
          Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

          Thanks Crusty.

           

          Another forum user in a different discussion thread (about speaker simulation not being switched off when using live outs) suggested simply using the RETURN jack of the effect loop to bypass my amps tone controls.  So I have tried that - and it certainly makes things way better.  It does bypass the amp's tone controls, so now I have a FLAT response guitar amp and I can just tweak the tone from the X3 Live - now it actually doesn't sound too bad even using the COMBO PWRAMP setting although to my ears there is still too much treble considering everything is set to FLAT - but if I use the COMBO FRONT setting, I can tweak the overall EQ to attenuate either bass or treble or midrange as I want and I can roll off that harsh treble.

           

          I am getting there ..... slowly but surely!

          • pchapple Just Startin'
            pchapple
            126 posts since
            Apr 20, 2010
            Currently Being Moderated
            Sep 10, 2010 8:16 AM (in response to edstar1960)
            Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

            Hi edstart,

             

            I had quite a struggle initially with tone on the X3 through a combo amp (Marshall AVT50).  I have to say it's still a work in progress!!

             

            However, what I found was that because I had been messing around a lot with the unit trying to get it to sound good, I had almost 'lost my way' in what I'd changed.  The best thing I did  was reset all the output settings, etc. back to default and start again with a few weeks experience under my belt.

             

            My best results were

             

            1) get a good sound through monitors, or headphones

            2) check that guitar input pad switch is OFF

            3) check that the output switch is set to AMP

            4) connect to combo from 1/4" socket

            5) select OUTPUT as combo front - leave as default settings for now

            6) adjust combo amp tone controls

            7) lastly mess with the OUTPUT settings HIGH / LOW and focus and possibly EQ in the effect.

             

            I always roll the top frequencies off in the EQ anyway to stop FIZZ

             

            Hope this helps a little?

            • edstar1960 Iknowathingortwo
              edstar1960
              712 posts since
              May 25, 2010
              Currently Being Moderated
              Sep 10, 2010 10:52 AM (in response to pchapple)
              Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

              Thanks very much for the advice pchapple - very useful.

               

              I am still working on the sound of the X3 through my combo.  If I can get it right then it is the cheapest and most conveient option for me - if not then I will have to sell the combo and buy myself a full range powered speaker but I am not yet convined that is best for me.But I seem to be making progress.

               

              I am now trying the COMBO FRONT mode and connecting the X3 to the input jack of my combo.  This does mean that my combo preamp comes into play but I figured that would actually give me more control in a live situation if I needed to tweak the overall tone dependent on venue. It also gives me better/finer control of the overall amp volume (when using the effects return jack the overall volume was controlled by the MASTER vol of the X3 and it was a tiny amount of movement from comfortable at home listening level to way too loud gig level).  I have set my combo controls all about midway and I have the X3 Combo Front HIGHS setting to -100 which is as far as I can go to defeat the treble and it just about sounds OK - maybe on the verge of being a little bright but I will need that to cut through over the rest of the band.  I have also set the LOWS to -5 as I figured I was probably over compensating for bass at low listening levels. Focus is at 530 which seems to make the sound suitable bright.  I tried lower but realised that it was starting to sound muddy - may be OK for home practice level but would not cut through at band gig level.

               

              I have a gig tomorrow so I will see how it goes!   Fingers crossed that I have cracked it - or at the very least got very close to the sound I want and need for the live band.

               

              Thanks again for your input and advice.

              • pchapple Just Startin'
                pchapple
                126 posts since
                Apr 20, 2010
                Currently Being Moderated
                Sep 13, 2010 12:56 AM (in response to edstar1960)
                Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

                Glad to be of help - hope it all went well!!

                • edstar1960 Iknowathingortwo
                  edstar1960
                  712 posts since
                  May 25, 2010
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Sep 13, 2010 5:21 AM (in response to pchapple)
                  Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

                  Unfortunately it did not go well.  I really thought I had cracked the sounds when playing at home - I was cranking my combo up and it sounded good and I thought it would easily cut through at the live gig - I even ensured I was making my patches with more high-mid gain than normal so I avoided over compensating with bass and making everything sound woolly at volume.  But on the day, at an outside gig, I found that it was hard to hear myself, and that the sounds were not as full and rich as I had thought. So I was disappointed.

                   

                  But then disaster struck!!  The X3 Live decided to start cutting out - at first just intermittently during a song - it was like someone was muting me for a split second and then un-muting.  At first I thought I was imagining it - but then it struck during a guitar solo - suddenly the odd note was just missing as the sound cut out - and then it culminated in cutting out completely and me having no sound.  The display was still on and all settings seemed fine but I was getting no sound.  So in desperation, I powered the X3 off and on and that seemed to fix it - well at least for several minutes and then it started again, cutting out intermittenly and then cutting out completely.   I was using my Variax 700 connected via the VDI cable to the X3 so I was not sure if it was the cable, the guitar or the X3 but I could not continue like that so at that point I just had to give up - fortunately I had brough a spare guitar (Parker P38) and my old faithful Boss GT5 - so I dug them out and swapped everything over and I was up and running.  So I managed to salvage the last half hour of the set.

                   

                  I think I had read some entries on the forums where the X3 had cut out during live shows - but now it has happened to me!  And it was only the 4th time I had used it live - and I have to say it was a disaster for me!

                   

                  I am going to contact the retailer today and see whether I can get a replacement OR get my one repaired - it obviously is not right.  I am so disappointed - I have spent months tweaking this thing and giving it the benefit of the doubt and now it has gone and let me down at the most inopportune moment at a live gig in front of a large audience.

                  • pchapple Just Startin'
                    pchapple
                    126 posts since
                    Apr 20, 2010
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Sep 13, 2010 4:49 AM (in response to edstar1960)
                    Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

                    That sucks - sorry to hear it man

                     

                    Sounds like the unit is duff.  Might also explain the treble problem I guess?  Hope the retailer sorts you out with no problems - Line6 seem to be pretty good at sorting out any returns.

                     

                    I hope this isn't the end of the X3L road for you ... ...

                    • edstar1960 Iknowathingortwo
                      edstar1960
                      712 posts since
                      May 25, 2010
                      Currently Being Moderated
                      Sep 14, 2010 11:46 AM (in response to pchapple)
                      Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

                      Retailer is collecting unit tomorrow and getting it shipped off to Line6 for testing and repair/replacement as necessary.

                       

                      They reckon at least two weeks - so we will see whether or not they fix all the problems for me - and maybe when I get it back, I will be able to get those great results everyone else can!  I will keep you posted.

                      • edstar1960 Iknowathingortwo
                        edstar1960
                        712 posts since
                        May 25, 2010
                        Currently Being Moderated
                        Oct 1, 2010 4:05 AM (in response to edstar1960)
                        Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

                        Unit back from repair.  They took one look at my long list of issues and decided just to replace the board.  Lin6 turned it round in 1 day!  Took best part of two weeks elapsed just because it had to go via retailer out and back.

                         

                        So far so good.  The unit with the new board does sound different.  Just tried through my 1x12 combo so far but it sounds so much better.  Much more definition and more punchy.  Lots to test out before I can be certain all is well but initial reaction is positive and it does not seem thin and weedy and way too much treble like before.

                         

                        Only slight issue was I had to calibrate my volume pedal when I got it back as it was not muting sound when at heel - that was not an issue before - fortunately following the calibration procedure fixed that - I had visions of having to send it back again - but seems OK now that it has been calibrated.

                         

                        Once I have given it a thorough work out via all my amps and home recording set up, then I will report back.  But so far so good!  Fingers crossed! 

                        • edstar1960 Iknowathingortwo
                          edstar1960
                          712 posts since
                          May 25, 2010
                          Currently Being Moderated
                          Feb 2, 2011 6:53 AM (in response to edstar1960)
                          Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

                          Sorry - I forgot all about reporting back in this thread.  A lot has happened since I got unit back from repair.

                           

                          I thought I was getting somewhere with the on stage sound through my combo amp but after a few more gigs had to admit I still wasn't getting a great sound.

                          I then decided to go the FRFR route and bought a powered PA speaker thinking that then I could use the STUDIO DIRECT sounds as intended and get the best out of the acoustic models.  I then spent hundreds of hours tweaking and more tweaking and thought I had some pretty decent sounds set up but when I used the PA speaker and the tweaked sounds at a gig last weekend I discovered that I was no further forward.  My patches didn't cut through - I had to boost my powered PA speaker volume a lot just to be heard and then my sounds just seemed to thin and lacking any depth and punch.  I figured that this was down to Fletcher Munson effect because I had set the patches up at comfortable home volume rather than uncomfortable gig volume.

                           

                          So back to the drawing board and trying to tweak the sounds to get them right for a band mix.  I have been auditioning the sounds at low level and at volume approaching gig level and once again I am hitting the way yoo much treble problem.   It seems that at low comfortable listening levels I can achieve what I think sound like good sounds - great distortion - however when I turn the powerd speaker volume up and listen to them at much louder volumes they become harsh and trebly - so I made sure to tweak the TREBLE and PRESENCE controls down on the amp models and then if necessary also tweak the HIGH frequencies down with the EQ - result is that at low volume I think I am getting good distortion and good sounds but at high volume the distortion is barely audible and the sound becomes very clean.  Power chords sound like clean notes with a bit of colour in the background - turn the volume down and hey presto the distortion is much more prominent.

                           

                          Needless to say this has me very very confused.  

                           

                          Has anyone else ever experienced this type of issue?

                           

                          I think I will save my user patches and then reset the X3L to factory defaults, and I think I will reflash it to make sure I have latest firmware.  Then I will reload it and see if it has fixed any of these issues.    I sure hope so....... I am getting close to giving up and selling it (if anyone will buy it since I will not be able to give it a glowing reference!).

                           

                          I suppose there is always the chance that the powered PA speaker has mal-functioned - although it is brand new - but I will check it by playing an MP3 through it and see if it is correctly producing whole frequency range.

                          • shockwave199 Just Startin'
                            shockwave199
                            171 posts since
                            Apr 10, 2009
                            Currently Being Moderated
                            Feb 7, 2011 12:40 AM (in response to edstar1960)
                            Re: X3 Live - way too much treble output

                            "result is that at low volume I think I am getting good distortion and good sounds but at high volume the distortion is barely audible and the sound becomes very clean.  Power chords sound like clean notes with a bit of colour in the background - turn the volume down and hey presto the distortion is much more prominent."

                             

                            You have to balance your gain staging between your guitar volume and the speaker volume. If you have your speaker very loud and your guitar lower, you're hitting the gain setting of a given amp model LESS hard with the guitar volume, thereby making your distortion less and clean sounding. You want the speaker to be loud enough, but you want your guitar to hit the amps gain hard [loud] too so you get the distortion out of the gain setting on the amp. If you need your volumes where they currently are set regardless, increase the gain setting on the amp model and you get more full distortion and less crunchy clean. I believe the gain setting can be assignable to the foot pedal so you can actually adjust the amount of gain in real time- which is really adjusting the amount of distortion you're getting. Or, you could add a distortion stomp to your patch and get extra distortion like that. And don't forget that adding a comp to a patch can boost the levels very significatntly as well. The reason why you're probably getting better results at lower volumes at home is that you have the speaker lower and you're smacking the amp models gain with the GUITAR being louder, giving you all the creamy distortion. You want that gain staging to remain the same even at much louder volumes.

                             

                            Remember- it's a volume balancing act between your guitar volume, the gain setting of the amp model, the amps models master volume, and the volume of the speaker [or combo amp]. Experiment between them to get the distortion you need just right, at loud volumes

                             

                            I hope maybe that will help you some.

                             

                            Also, don't be afraid to experiment with every output setting on the pod. The best one isn't always the logical one. I use poweramp/combo into the front of my amp, what's considered the wrong setting for that, but it's by far the best sounding for my taste. Good luck.

                             

                            Dan

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