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5194 Views 33 Replies Latest reply: Mar 11, 2011 5:33 AM by Deny777 RSS
HarryN Just Startin' 116 posts since
Sep 4, 2009
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Mar 2, 2011 1:12 PM

A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

In this Gear Page thread I suggest folks running the POD HD500 as a pedalboard before an amp can reduce hiss and get a better signal to noise ratio by making sure the mixer pan controls are both set to centre.

 

I've been fiddling around with HD Edit and headphones this evening and I came up with some other things I thought worth sharing away from that thread, because they apply whether running amp models or just FX.

 

It seems a lot of the hiss you may be hearing is actually coming from inactive inputs adding noise into the signal chain. Most default empty patches seem to be set as follows:

 

Input 1: Guit+Aux+Varx Ch1

Input 2: Same

 

And this seems to introduce hiss and unwanted noise. Now try the following (assuming you've one guitar plugged into the regular 1/4" input and are not using a Variax):

 

Input 1: Guitar

Input 2: Mic

 

then:

 

Input 1: Guitar

Input 2: Aux

 

and finally:

 

Input 1: Guitar

Input 2: Variax

 

If you're using a patch with some gain in it you'll certainly notice hiss, decreasing as you try each example above. With the final one Guitar/Variax being the quietest.

 

Now from that setting try:

 

Input 1: Guitar

Input 2: Guitar

 

Notice how much louder your signal suddenly gets? (You'll notice these examples more with headphones on). Perhaps this is one of the reasons some folks have been having issues with clean sounds not being as clean as they hoped. Setting Guitar/Guitar seems to put your signal through stronger. For low noise and low hiss it seems that you're best setting the HD inputs to 1: Guitar / 2: Variax (or an equivalent if you're using a Variax - the general principle being to use a second input that doesn't have anything actually running into it).

 

Now going back to my suggestion in the previous thread, I believe I was wrong when I said centring the mixer pan controls isn't relevant when using the amp models. I believe that the signals don't seem so much quieter when panned compared to FX only, but I believe it's the setting of two guitar signals as inputs that compensates for that so the earlier principle of centring controls still stands.

 

So what's the practical upshot of all this waffle? I've just gone through all my patches on HD Edit and centred the mixer pan controls (double clicking them does this quickly). Obviously you won't want to necessarily do this on patches where you've placed FX/Amps in the left and right channels, but try it on the ones you haven't  I've also changed every patch so that the inputs are set to:

 

Input 1: Guitar

Input 2: Variax

 

I chose Variax as this offered less hiss than an unused Aux or Mic setting and I don't have a Variax. Line 6 really needs to add the option to switch inputs off completely rather than allowing them to add noise into the signal chain.

 

Anyway the result for me of changing all the patches to (1) Guitar/Variax input and (2) centred mixer pan controls is that all the patches are much less noisy and feature much less hiss. This seems to be a very good solution to some noise issues for me - and seems to result in a more pure signal chain from which to begin building patches. It seems foolish that Line6 has the empty patches defaulting to settings that introduce noise into the system.

 

I hope my experimentation helps some of you.

 

PS: Those worried about losing stereo separation by centring the mixer pan controls needn't worry. They are only for setting the stereo position of FX within those left/right channels. Any stereo effect after the mixer works in stereo as normal whatever the mixers settings are.

  • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
    Jan 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 2, 2011 1:33 PM (in response to HarryN)
    Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

    Great post HarryN!

  • Karl_Houseknecht Expert Line 6 User 3,732 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 2, 2011 2:09 PM (in response to HarryN)
    Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

    HarryN wrote:

    Input 1: Guitar

    Input 2: Aux

     

    Interesting.  This is the way I've always used it.

  • jholmgren Just Startin' 33 posts since
    Dec 29, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 2, 2011 6:18 PM (in response to HarryN)
    Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

    Holy Crap! All my patches have been set to Input 1: Guit+Aux+Varx Ch1 -Input 2: Same. I then changed it to Input 1: Guitar - Input 2: Variax (per your advice). I never would've thought those settings would make any difference at all.

     

    What a difference it made in my Park75 patch! The only way I can describe it is that for me my HD500 just went from being a VERY good sounding modeler to a VERY good sounding amp.

      • Karl_Houseknecht Expert Line 6 User 3,732 posts since
        Jan 25, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Mar 3, 2011 5:58 AM (in response to HarryN)
        Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

        I agree that the input settings should be something other than the current default for the majority of users, which is to say:  guitar players.  I just assumed from the start that using the same setup that was recommended for the X3 Live was the way to go, i.e. - Input1 = Guitar, Input 2 = Aux.  I'm going to give Input 2 = Varaiax a try to see if that offers anything better.  I don't have hiss at the moment so I'm not sure if it will solve anything.

  • wolbai Just Startin' 177 posts since
    Mar 30, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 3, 2011 7:09 AM (in response to HarryN)
    Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

    Hi,

     

    this is a very curious one! I have tried your proposal (Single Coil guitar - not with humbucker guitar). But I got different and really irritating results. I am not a technican. I just followed my ears. And that's what they told me:

     

     

    1. With the PARK-75 (one of my amps) I can confirm your proposal. The hiss is less. So I stored the input 1: guitar + input2: variax.

     

    2. With the BF Deluxe I didn't realize a reduction in hiss, but a SIGNIFICANT reduction in the overall input level (!?). So my overall tone is reduced in the volume output and seems to have less fullness. I therefore experimented with the input settings and realized that the variation: input 1: guitar + input 2: guitar gives me NO increase in hiss but a fuller tone. So I saved it this way.

     

    3. With Gain to Higain amps (JCM800, Treadplate, ENGL) I couldn't realize significant chances in hiss. Especially if you run a noise gate in the patch (but that is somehow understandable to me). Again I realized the behavour like in 2). With the input 1: guitar + input 2: variax the overall input level seems to be reduced. I compared the same patches in A/B. The new one (input 1: guitar + input2: variax) results in a lower level of distortion. And this was not acceptable to me. So at the end I saved: input 1: guitar + input 2: guitar as the best overall tone effect.

     

     

    As I said: am not a technican and ears are different. This is a really curious behaviour. I think the discussion on that is not at the end - at least to me. I think LINE6 should come up with some official statements.

      • wolbai Just Startin' 177 posts since
        Mar 30, 2010
        Currently Being Moderated
        Mar 3, 2011 7:33 AM (in response to HarryN)
        Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

        All my patches are panned at 0% in the mixer-section. I did that right after I bought the POD HD500.

         

        I think you have made a very valuable contribution. But I just can not realize the same behaviur with all the amps I use. So there a more parameters in the game than currently discussed. As I said: with the switch of different inpu-settings the overall input level of my guitar output is changing. And this has not only an effect in hiss but in the overall tone.

          • Karl_Houseknecht Expert Line 6 User 3,732 posts since
            Jan 25, 2007
            Currently Being Moderated
            Mar 3, 2011 7:53 AM (in response to HarryN)
            Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

            HarryN wrote:


            a future firmware update may look at these things but we'll just be told "various fixes and tweaks" rather than get a proper changelog.

             

            To be fair, Harry, if there are any changes that affect the end user directly or address known, important issues, they'll be spelled out explicitly in the release notes.  The "various" comment that got everyone riled up was not related to any changes that had any impact to the end user, but were necessary code maintenance tasks.

          • wolbai Just Startin' 177 posts since
            Mar 30, 2010
            Currently Being Moderated
            Mar 3, 2011 8:07 AM (in response to HarryN)
            Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

            The Guitar-In switch on my POD HD500 is set to normal. Apart of the PU-type of the guitar, there may be additonal components like the outputsystem (headphones, FR/FR-mnitor, tube amp, etc.) which will influence the overall effect in using different input-settings. To complete my results: I use a DT50/212 with the HD500.

             

            But nevertheless: it is an important information that different input-settings have different effects to the overall guitar tone (not only for the hiss to me). And this seems to vary by the amp model you are using.

             

            As you: I also don't know the intention by LINE6 on that. This is - since you raised up that thing - a grey zone to me now. And therefore I would like to understand that a bit more.

  • tighttritenight Just Startin' 97 posts since
    Oct 13, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 4, 2011 7:15 PM (in response to HarryN)
    Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

    Thanks for the tip.  It really is a lot quieter

  • Bluestone Iknowathingortwo 1,194 posts since
    Feb 11, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 4, 2011 7:52 PM (in response to HarryN)
    Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

    Great insight...thanks..


    I haven't had really an issue with hiss...but I'm very interested in the results anyway...going to try this tonight...


    Thanks!


    OM

  • Texxxxx Just Startin' 368 posts since
    Aug 13, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 4, 2011 8:10 PM (in response to HarryN)
    Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

    I haven't had noticable hiss, but I was intrigued by these 'input' options.

     

    They really seem to work more like output options, to me.

     

    In a stereo setup, like I have, if you change the 'Input 2' to 'aux', for instance, you lose that entire side of your stereo output.  I mean, I'm just running one cable from my guitar to  'guitar in', and using two 1/4" L&R out to stereo amp and cab.  Input 2 has to be one of the options that has 'guitar' in it, or no sound in that channel.  That is why it seems like these 'Input' options act like output options.

     

    The weird thing to me, is that you can't get back to 'same' again as an option for Input 2.  Once you turn that dial, you cannot bring 'same' back up again...at least not on my unit.

     

    I don't notice a volume difference between guitar/guitar or anything that has guitar in it, like guitar-aux-variax/guitar-aux-variax.

     

    Strange that we get different results, or perhaps our perceptions are just different...it's a mystery to me...

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    • wolbai Just Startin' 177 posts since
      Mar 30, 2010
      Currently Being Moderated
      Mar 5, 2011 1:28 AM (in response to Texxxxx)
      Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

      Same behaviour in my rig: "same" does not get back again, once the input setting is edit (weird).

       

      I do notice a tonal difference between the settings: A (input: 1= guitar + input2= variax) and B (input: 1= guitar + input2= guitar).

       

      - With a clean amp like the BF Deluxe the volume level is higher to me with setting B.

      - With High gain amps lke Treadplate the amount of distortion is higher to me with setting B.

       

      It is a weird behaviour to me. And as I am not e technician I only can judge by my ears. May be the different results are based on different rigs (HD500 with DT50/212 Combo linked with L6 LINK).

       

      In summary: it seems to me that different input settings affects the guitar input signal level. And this leads to tonal colorations based on the guitar type, the amp model, the FXs in the patch, the output system you are using and may be possible further components I am not aware on.

       

      A LINE6 statement would be helpful. If needed, I would do a A/B-recording on request.

      • Texxxxx Just Startin' 368 posts since
        Aug 13, 2006
        Currently Being Moderated
        Mar 5, 2011 6:39 AM (in response to wolbai)
        Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

        wolbai wrote:

         

        Same behaviour in my rig: "same" does not get back again, once the input setting is edit (weird).

         

        I do notice a tonal difference between the settings: A (input: 1= guitar + input2= variax) and B (input: 1= guitar + input2= guitar).

         

        - With a clean amp like the BF Deluxe the volume level is higher to me with setting B.

        - With High gain amps lke Treadplate the amount of distortion is higher to me with setting B.

         

        It is a weird behaviour to me. And as I am not e technician I only can judge by my ears. May be the different results are based on different rigs (HD500 with DT50/212 Combo linked with L6 LINK).

         

        In summary: it seems to me that different input settings affects the guitar input signal level. And this leads to tonal colorations based on the guitar type, the amp model, the FXs in the patch, the output system you are using and may be possible further components I am not aware on.

         

        A LINE6 statement would be helpful. If needed, I would do a A/B-recording on request.

        I agree.  With my setup...HD500>Mesa 50/50 stereo amp>DT50 4x12 modded to stereo, I lose one complete stereo channel (2 speakers) if I use Input1=guitar/Input2=variax (or 'aux').  So, we are similar there...it is a lot quieter, for sure...lol.

         

        With most people running in mono, I would guess when they remove the guitar on Input 2 to change it from the default...guitar-aux-variax/same...to guitar/variax (aux), they notice the volume loss, not knowing that they lost an entire channel in the process.  I believe the unit was designed to have 'guitar', or some variation that has 'guitar' in it like the default, in both Inputs, or you don't get the complete, full, input signal for your guitar.   I say this because you lose an entire side in stereo if you don't have an option with guitar in it for both Inputs.

         

        I do understand that running 'mono out' puts the stereo signals together, but that signal isn't as strong if some form of 'guitar' is not in Input 2.  I believe it is missing some guitar signal when Input 2 is changed to only 'aux' or 'variax'.

            • wolbai Just Startin' 177 posts since
              Mar 30, 2010
              Currently Being Moderated
              Mar 5, 2011 11:22 AM (in response to HarryN)
              Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

              Hi HarryN,

               

              thank you for posting the section of the HD5000 manual. This gives the answers to me. For stereo AND mono use of the POD HD you will loose one channel if you do not have the "guitar" in the second channel input. In stereo that means 1 channel is not working. In mono (thats my rig) the overall volume is at 50% as it could be with the already descriped effects to the overall tone.

               

              Thank you for that! On the other side your suggestion to use guitar/variax for input 1 + 2 to reduce hiss will lead to a 1 channel loss in stereo or in mono to 50% output volume level. At least that is my understanding.

               

              Your conclusion to put everthing after the mixer I really don't understand. Do you mean: e.g. placing a distortion pedal after the mixer (means after the amp)?

              If so, this will lead to unregualry and - to me  - unwanted usage of effects.

               

              cheers, wolbai.

                • wolbai Just Startin' 177 posts since
                  Mar 30, 2010
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Mar 5, 2011 12:12 PM (in response to HarryN)
                  Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

                  Hi HarryN,

                   

                  thank you for your deeper explanations! Really helpful. As I have several patches - I am working with a Template - which are using path A + B AFTER the amp and BEFORE the mixer, these are the reasons for my negative behaviour of your original post suggestion. For example I place a 20 ms delay on channel A directly after the amp and before the mixer. I can not see an alternative to that FX without coloring my original tone in that patch.

                   

                  So, for me I have to stay with my conclusion to put "guitar" in the second input channel. Others might decide different. The hiss effect weights very much lighter than the tonal penalities in my specific case.

                   

                  cheers, wolbai.

                    • wolbai Just Startin' 177 posts since
                      Mar 30, 2010
                      Currently Being Moderated
                      Mar 5, 2011 1:00 PM (in response to HarryN)
                      Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

                      Hmmm,

                       

                      I have tried to find a logical answer to things my ears told me, based on your original post (guitar + variax for input 1 + 2). Your suggestion will lead in my patches to:

                       

                      - a loss of volume in BF Deluxe patches (in that case I mainly use single paths, no path A + B)

                      - reduced distortion in high patches (in that case I use the amp in pre position --> path A + B after amp and before mixer)

                       

                      This logical attempt seems to fail. What remains is the judgement of my ears. May be this is a question of perception too.

                      But at the end, it falls back to my personal conclusion: for my specific needs, I will use "guitar" in the second input path. And that is the standard setting of the POD HD (500). The negative effects as already told - reduced volume and less distortion - weights heavier than possible hiss effects to me (the original attention to that thread)

                       

                      Thats my subjective opinion. And at that point, I feel that I can not give any more valuable contribution  to that thread. So I am out.

                       

                      cheers, wolbai.

                • Texxxxx Just Startin' 368 posts since
                  Aug 13, 2006
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Mar 7, 2011 3:14 PM (in response to HarryN)
                  Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

                  HarryN wrote:

                   

                  Where you will lose one side of your stereo signal is if you just put that amp block in the a or b stereo paths before the mixer. Input 1 goes down the top line (left by default) and input 2 goes down the bottom line (right by default). If your patch makes use of the a and b paths then yes, switching a guitar input off will mean you get nothing down that particular route. I tried this for myself. With input one on guitar only the upper channel is fed, with that set to variax and input 2 set to guitar it was the lower channel that was fed. So whenenver you have a patch using these parralel paths - switching an input off will kill one of these side channels.

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                  You are correct HarryN.

                   

                  I was using a dual amp patch when I was losing a channel.  Didn't think to try it on a single.  I've been out of town for a few days and am just getting caught up.

                   

                  Sorry for the confusion I created.

            • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
              Dec 13, 2007
              Currently Being Moderated
              Mar 5, 2011 11:26 AM (in response to HarryN)
              Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

              yup!  it sure makes a difference setting up a clean patch with only one guitar input.  i didn't realize the input settings are per patch as well - now i don't have to redo all my patches, just the clean ones.

               

              i'm still getting a very mild distortion at 0% drive on the blackface, so I'm still running the -12db in front the amp, so I have a lot of headroom with the drive knob.

               

              But now it's in a better range for sure.  Good find.  Surprised no one noticed this earlier!!!!

        • wolbai Just Startin' 177 posts since
          Mar 30, 2010
          Currently Being Moderated
          Mar 5, 2011 10:39 AM (in response to Texxxxx)
          Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

          I agrree with you. As long as there are no other official statements I keep the "guitar" in the second input-channel. This weights much havier to me than all possible positive hiss effect by setting "Guita/variax" for input 1 + 2.

           

          cheers wolbai.

  • Deny777 Just Startin' 67 posts since
    Sep 1, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 11, 2011 5:33 AM (in response to HarryN)
    Re: A modest proposal for solving hiss on the PODHD

    So that's why I've always thought the amp models and stompboxes in my HD500 had too much gain to begin with... It sums the friggin inputs. I'm changing *all* my patches to Guitar/Variax as soon as I get home. If the mixer pan controls are only to compensate for the volume loss I'm thinking I'm probably not going to mess with them, I can always raise the volume in my amp - in line mode there's plenty of output level for my setup. Besides I intend to pan dual amps hard left and right in the near future when I finish building my new stereo amp so that's probably another good reason to leave the mixer block alone.

     

    I don't think I have a single patch with dual amps without at least a noise gate before the A and B signal paths, I understand that the only situation where I sould choose Guitar/Guitar in the inputs is when they're fed directly to the A and B signal paths, correct?

     

    Can't wait to get home and review my patches, thanks for the heads up!

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