Mar 17, 2010 11:28 PM
Diminished barre chords?
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Hey,
I usually play most of my rhythm with barre chords. Unfortunately, I have not found or discovered a true diminished barre chord! If the rest of you have it in your arsenal or chops, could you share your insights? I would love to transition between keys with some diminished barre chord form, but, alas, it has been more than elusive! An exasperated to the nth degree guitarist in Iowa seeks your help!
Thanks,
Lwanga Basudde
Hi ! What is your definition of "true" ? Anyway, if you talk about dim7 chords (1 b3 b5 bb7) you can try it like this: 1st finger the whole 1st fret(barre),second finger on A string 2nd fret,3nd finger on D string 3rd fret,4th finger on B string 3rd fret.Any note can be the root.I remind you this is just a shape as you asked.Hope it helps!
Thanks! I was aware of that chord voicing.By true, I meant plain, simple, and regular "diminished" chords. I realize that on a guitar, plain, simple, and regular is not the same as on a piano, but that's why the post! There are diminished chords out there; just not "barre" kinds that fit the description. Usually, you have to sacrifice, and forget about the barre option, yet, that limits the speed and smoothness of transitions that barre chords offer. I admit it, I am lazy at times, and that's why I love barre chords. Since the best teachers are other guitarists, I felt I'd ask the question to this forum. I was just having trouble with the diminished chord voicing I have been searching for, that's all. If all fails, I do have a keyboard/synthesizer in my studio, but, as God is my witness, I am a guitarist first! ![]()
You're confused...
First, ask yourself... what is a chord?
Next, ask yourself, what is a dimished chord?
If you can't answer that, then you should review it at this point.
A dimished chord consists of 1 b3 b5. Any chord can be turned into a dimished chord. ie a major chord can be turned into a dimished chord by lowering the third and the fifth of the major chord by a half step.
Now, I'll let you in on a little secret:
Barre chords are more difficult to form and more labour intensive and create left hand fatigue (ie the famous burning pain in your index finger running up your forearm) rather quickly. Anytime you can get away by not using a barre chord, do it.
You are mistaken in believing that no "true" dimished barre chord can be achieved on the guitar. There are ONLY 3 particular SHAPES for a dimished chord on the guitar. Only 3. Each shape depends on what string the root of the dimished chord begins on.
This shape would be the easiest to form a barre chord on and shift through different inversions:
E 3
B 2
G 3
D 2
A x
E x
Now, the usual LH placement starting highest to lowest would be: 4 2 3 1
But try this flavour instead: Form a barre using your index finger starting on the 4th string, NOT the 6th string. Then simply add your 2nd finger and your 3rd finger above to form the dimished chord starting on the 4th string.
One other thing: since you said you were a pianist, the LH fingers I gave you are on guitar, NOT piano. This is how fingering works for the guitar (if you didn't knwo already): your index is 1, your middle is 2, your ring is 3, your pinky is 4.
When you make a barre chord, a LOT of people make the mistake of using their index finger across ALL the strings, even when they don't need to be. This is a huge mistake in the economy of motion.
Hope that helps you out a bit
I must admit, kshri, that diminished barre chords are, indeed, confusing! Your explanation was quite edifying, thank you!!! However: your contention that barre chords should be avoided because they are, "labour intensive and cause left hand fatigue," leads me to believe that you are not a connoisseur of guitar, despite your knowledge of "theory"!!! I realize that since any note of a diminished chord can be the root, that this whole discussion is somewhat esoteric, or moot. Moreover, I was envisioning full, six string, barre chords when I asked the question. The dim7 chords mentioned by ANDREASGTR are the only feasible alternative that I know of, considering the theory. But to assert that barre chords should not be a part of a guitarist's arsenal or chops must mean you lack a love for the instrument, to say the least!!! Nevertheless, I was just trying to appeal for a lively discussion of guitar theory as it concerns diminished chords, and your reply did add that to the thread, in an edifying mode. But beyond root, b3, b5 discussions, you must be "confused" about the intrinsic value of barre chords to any guitarist; so much so that I would be shocked to ask, "do you teach?" All I was trying to find out was what others' experiences were with this variable of guitar...and, since you gave me yours, THANK YOU!!!
I'm a classical guitarist.
I did my undergraduate degree in classical guitar performance.
So I have a few things to teach here and there ![]()
Barre chords almost never needed to be used, you can get away all the time without using them.
I'm sorry, but you can't deny that using a barre chord takes more energy than not using one. MANNNnnnnyyyy people give up guitar for this reason alone, because it takes too much effort to have all the strings sound without getting caught underneath the flesh of your finger when you are first starting the instrument.
My theory knowledge is pretty standard language, I'm a performer first and foremost.
Well, classical guitarist or not, you are entitled to your opinion! It just seems irresponsible to disregard barre chords. If they are, "labour intensive and create left hand fatigue," then it's probably because of lousy technique, which is a result of deficient teaching/learning. Why dismiss barre chords just because of a prejudice? That seems odd when most guitarists know their bona fide value and respect them. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on their merit, but performance without them, now that's contrary to education!
Barre chords are one of the first steps towards playing guitar, just like when you learn chords on a piano.
I have no prejudice about barre chords, don't be ridiculous. Barre chords are simply a means to an end.
But you don't see their shortcomings, and that's why you're an amateur.
With all respect gentlemen,there is a difference between a diminished chord(1 b3 b5)and a dim7 (1 b3 b5 bb7).The diminished seventh is the one that has 3 shapes or actually the same shape in 3 positions because this chord has no inversion(meaning any note can be the root).Because the chord has 4 notes, it takes 3 positions to cover the 12 notes of an octave.So far,so good.
It's up to me as a player or composer to use the low E and A strings,and that's when I'll probably use the barre shape,I suggested.Different shapes are for different voicings and noone can forbid me to try new positions.A barre chord doesn't actually make you an amateur or professional if the sound you make is actually what are you going for.Try anything you can find and that goes for scales and more.Be inspired!!!
kshri: There is something to be said for playing and listening to music both horizontally and vertically. Melody and harmony each are a "means to an end" that all of us as musicians should be able to master. To dismiss chords as only tools to "simplify and analyze" music, again, seems somewhat negligent, especially for someone with a guitar degree! Just the same, if all you want to do is arpeggiate endlessly without even some chords for seasoning, that's your choice! There is more to classical, rock, blues, jazz, and other forms of guitar music than to limit oneself like that. That's just my sentiment, and I'm not an expert...
"Amateur"? Is that supposed to be a pejorative? You digress from the issue, diminished barre chords. Remember?
I know this is an old post, but I think these are the chords you're looking for:
ROOTED ON E-STRING:
Gdim, with half-dim 7
String: E A D G B E
Fret: 3 4 5 3 6 3
Gdim, with fully-dim 7
String: E A D G B E
Fret: 3 4 5 3 5 3
ROOTED ON A-STRING:
Cdim, with no 7
String: E A D G B E
Fret: 2 3 4 X 4 2
(BTW, kshri, I'm a bass player and it took me all of two minutes to figure these chords out. You should quit. Go work at Guitar Center where your pretentious know-nothing know-it-all attitude will be appreciated by your peers. Leave performance to the pros.)
A diminished chord can be named after any note in the chord. Look closely at the notes of the chord and you will see that the notes when you play the chord on the 4th fret are the same as when you play the chord on the 1st fret (i.e. they are the same chord) so all you need are the 3 chord shapes shown on this post to be able to play all the diminished chords.
side the whole chord shape up one fret it looks like this and will be called E dim, Bb dim, C# dim or G dim.
If you slide the shape up one more fret it will be F dim, B dim, D dim, Ab dim.
If you slide the shape up one more fret it will be F dim, B dim, D dim, Ab dim.
And finally, sliding it up one more fret it will be Eb dim, A dim, C dim, F# dim.
OM
These guys are making my carpel tunnels hurt...![]()
Yeah... you don't need a barre chord. They are easier than barre chords - so why do you want one?
To make it into a barre chord you would need to alter the open tuning. Go figure. You might get some nice sounds. Never tried it though.
You could tune your guitar to an open dim 7. That could be interesting I suppose.
No go and listen to Rain Song by Led Zep
That'll take your mind off it.
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