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1538 Views 8 Replies Latest reply: Oct 17, 2011 2:27 AM by greghall RSS
greghall Just Startin'
greghall
160 posts since
Feb 2, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Oct 12, 2011 8:07 AM

DT25 Direct Out with HD500

I'm considering getting a DT25 to use with my HD500. I'm planning to use the DT25 on stage with the Direct Out from the amp going to a PA desk. I have a few questions on how this would work in practice. From what I understand, the direct out uses cabinet modelling rather than the power amp section and I presume in principal it works the same as the DT50.

 

With the pre-amp model set in the HD500 to get the best sound from the amp, where does the cabinet modelling for the direct out come from, the DT25 or the HD500? If it is the DT25, then is the cabinet model fixed or is it still confiurable from the HD500? Does this save any DSP power in the HD500?

 

If I use the reverb on the amp, is the reverb also added to the direct out signal, or do I need to use a reverb on the HD500 and turn the reverb on the amp off? Ideally I'd like to use the amp reverb to save DSP power, as I like the spring reverb sound, but this does seem to use a lot of DSP.

 

The hall I generally play in does have much natural reverb, so I do need to add some to the direct out signal.

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

 

Regards

Greg

Tags: hd500, dt25
  • wolbai Just Startin'
    wolbai
    177 posts since
    Mar 30, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 12, 2011 9:43 AM (in response to greghall)
    Re: DT25 Direct Out with HD500

    A lot of good questions - and some room for specualations!

     

    On some questions you ask there are no - as far as I know - official statements from Line6.

     

    I have a DT50/212 with a POD HD500.

     

    Starting with the easiest question - no speculations on that:

     

    you can use the reverb on your DTXX. It will be transmitted to the Direct out. I use that in the way you are planning. You save one 1FX slot in your POD HD and DSP.

     

    The Direct out uses cabinet modeling, not the power amp section to output the sound to the P.A. Mixer.

    That is for me the reason why the the sound which comes out of the Direct Out is very much the same to me as the DT50/212 output. Therefore I do not mic the amp, because I am fine with the quality of that cab modeling.

    My understanding is that several forum users would agree on that.

     

    Now - how does this work internally? What cab modelling is used and where does it come from (POD HD or DTXX)?

     

    Here I think - at least for me - the speculations starts:

     

    My understanding is that the modelling comes from the DTXX and not from the POD HD so in a stand alone version the DTXX still has it's cab modeling for the Direct out.

     

    What cab modeling is used?

     

    I think it models a specific Line6 speaker cab: for a DTXX combo it is the specific cab modeling which emulates the cab. In a head I assume it is the Line6 4 x 12 speaker cab. So every time you use a Line6 speaker cab the sound is quite similar between PA output and amp/cab output. Using the Head with a different cab (e.g. a Marshal 4 x 12 half stack) I assume this could cause recognizable sound differences between the PA-Mixer output and the amp output on stage.

     

    Again - the last question is my best guess, because I am not aware of any official Line6 statements on that.

     

    I guess you will soon get other tips and - may be more official statements on that.

     

    Hope that helps.

     

    wolbai

  • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User
    spaceatl
    4,456 posts since
    Jan 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 12, 2011 10:53 AM (in response to greghall)
    Re: DT25 Direct Out with HD500

    The DT25 takes a feature from the SVMK2...In terms of it has another mode that the DT50 does not have...

     

    Like the DT50, when the DT25 is in FULL power mode, the XLR out is pulled off the output transformer and some cab and mic goodness is applied...

     

    In LOW power mode (like SVMK2), the XLR is fully modelled and actually works when the amp is in Standby also...

     

    The only case that you would hear the DT25 reverb on the XLR out when on the link with an HD POD is when the AMP model is bypassed and you are on Channel B...

     

    One thing that saves you some DSP with the DT50 or DT25 in FULL power mode is using PRE models...They are quite a bit smaller than thier full mode counterparts...

    • wolbai Just Startin'
      wolbai
      177 posts since
      Mar 30, 2010
      Currently Being Moderated
      Oct 12, 2011 11:22 AM (in response to spaceatl)
      Re: DT25 Direct Out with HD500

      spaceatl,

       

      I am confused now ...

       

      My understanding of the OP is that greghall wants to use the Direct Out Link from the DT25 to link to the PA-Mixer.

       

      So why are you talking about the XLR Output? Do mean the DirectOut/XLR-cabeling from the POD HD to the PA-Mixer?

       

      My first post assumed that the Direct Out Link from a DT25 to the PA-Mixer is similar to a DT50 and the reverb on the DT50 works the same way as the reverb on a DT25.

       

      wolbai.

      • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User
        spaceatl
        4,456 posts since
        Jan 24, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Oct 12, 2011 2:19 PM (in response to wolbai)
        Re: DT25 Direct Out with HD500

        Oh yea...I think you are right on that...the DT50/25 reverb is always available...Totally forgot...I have been using a channel switch and BOSS pedals lately...These amps are great for changing things around...

        • greghall Just Startin'
          greghall
          160 posts since
          Feb 2, 2007
          Currently Being Moderated
          Oct 13, 2011 1:41 AM (in response to spaceatl)
          Re: DT25 Direct Out with HD500

          wolbai / spaceatl,

           

          Thanks for your answers. It is the Direct Out from the DT25 I was refering too, and I'm really pleased that the Reverb from the amp gets added to the direct out signal.

           

          I hadn't thought about the differences on the Direct Out  between Full and Low power mode, although I don't expect to be using Low power mode on stage.

           

          wolbai, your thoughts on the cabinet modelling being a model of the DT25 cabinet itself makes sense to me, that way the direct out will always sound like the amp, but I thought that part of creating an authentic representation of the modelled amp in the HD500 was using the specific cabinet / mic model. Does this mean that going through the DT25 will sound less authentic compared to the real amp? I'm not suggesting that won't sound really good in it's own right, I'm just trying to understand how this actually works in practice.

           

          spaceatl, just to clarify, are you saying that the Direct Out in Full power mode uses some of the signal from the power tubes and then applies some speaker / mic emulation?

           

          Thanks for your help

          Greg    

          • hollis1003 Iknowathingortwo
            hollis1003
            342 posts since
            Feb 6, 2007
            Currently Being Moderated
            Oct 13, 2011 5:49 AM (in response to greghall)
            Re: DT25 Direct Out with HD500

            One thing to remember is that if you are using an HD500 and you are using the Cab models the HD colors those when it's in the "Power amp/Stack" or Combo output mode.  So that output mode is made to make the speakers of the DT50 sound more like what's being modelled in the POD.  The speaker simulation would do the same thing.

             

            I can say that for me I don't use the Cab models in the POD, the V30s in my 4x12 sound better without it.  I used the direct out on the DT50 last week into a PA and it sounded awesome.  It's probably the best one I've ever used on a guitar amp.

             

            The direct out on the DT50 is tapped off of the transformer so that includes the tubes then goes to the speaker sim/mic sim on the DT-50.

            • wolbai Just Startin'
              wolbai
              177 posts since
              Mar 30, 2010
              Currently Being Moderated
              Oct 13, 2011 1:38 PM (in response to hollis1003)
              Re: DT25 Direct Out with HD500

              Hi,

               

              great Thread to me - very much in the pool position of the topics!

               

              1. Original voicings of the DTXX

               

              First of all: Line6 has NEVER made any official statements whether the cab/mic modeling should be on over off to achieve the original 4 Voicings of the DTXX by using the pre amp models (mandatory for me to get real tube amp driven creamy, warmy guitar sound).

               

              So everbody in this forum has to make it's own decision by ears and/or ideas from other forum members. I do not want to judge that anymore...

               

              For me - please do read carefully my statements above - the most similar way to get the original voicings of the DTXX is to use the hopefullly well known pre amp model WITHOUT cab/sim modelling on a DT50/212 combo. Because this is what I am playing. I just can asume that using other Line6 equipment behaves the same way sound wise. This was NOT a decision made at once - it took me months to of testing and reading your guys input on that forum.

               

              2. Using cab/mic sims with other amps

               

              First of all: I am only using more or less the amps which are related to the 4 voicings of the DTXX. So I do not have detailled experience on using these other amps.

               

              What I still can say is:

               

              - in principle, it is clever to start with the standard mic/cab sim.

              - But it depends on your speaker system.

              - If you have for example a head and you are using a 2 x 12 Speaker box,

                and you are using e.g. the ENGL Fireball with the standard cab/mic sims
                your output could be more authentic by using cab/mic sims than without,
                because you add with the sims more punch and low end to your speaker ouput.

               

              What I am trying to say is: when ever you use an amp and the appropriate cab which is not comparable to your own one's, you HAVE to make tests where your ears have to guide you: sometimes cab/sims of is better - sometimes not.

               

              Regards,

              wolbai

              • greghall Just Startin'
                greghall
                160 posts since
                Feb 2, 2007
                Currently Being Moderated
                Oct 17, 2011 2:27 AM (in response to wolbai)
                Re: DT25 Direct Out with HD500

                I got a DT25 at the weekend and had some time to play around with it - this amp is superb! I did have to try 3 different ones before I found one that worked properly, which is a bit of a concern, but the shop was brilliant and fortunately they had a few in stock to try. To me this really takes the HD500 sounds to a whole new level!

                 

                Back to topic, I did try switching the cabinet on/off, using just the pre-amp and to my ears there is a slight difference, but it's marginal. So the cabinet modelling must be added to the power amp section in some way. It would be nice to know how this actually works under the covers, but your right, at the end of the day, our ears are the best judge.

                 

                Regards,

                Greg

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