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1037 Views 41 Replies Latest reply: Jul 9, 2012 7:24 AM by TheRealZap RSS
AlejandroD Just Startin' 1 posts since
Aug 25, 2010
Currently Being Moderated

Dec 14, 2011 12:15 AM

LINE 6 should products should be built by AMERICAN HANDS

I feel that this amazing company that builds amazing relaistic emulation tones should be buidling their products by American hands! This is a company loved by many American guitar players! I am very disapointed that the amazing DT amp models where NOT made in America. We need more jobs and i feel many people would step up to build these amplifiers ( who have the knowledge and skill) for this American made company! Line 6, You need to build the DT model line of amps in the US. I rather pay a couple more bucks for this amazing amp model which ties to the POD HD that is made my hard working American.

  • Rowbi Expert Line 6 User 7,745 posts since
    Nov 25, 2006

    the difference would be more than a couple of bucks...

     

    JTV59 korean made is $1499

    JTV59 USA made is $4899

     

    Whilst I agree it must be frustrating to have an economy with many out of work (just like it is here in the UK), I'd have to say that if that pricing difference was also reflected in all L6 products then I wouldn't be able to afford most of them.  e.g. a DT50 2x12 (which is also $1499) being pushed up to $4899.

     

    I'm certain Line 6's sales would fall through the floor if that happened, and then you'd have even more unemployed, as L6 would go out of business.

     

    It's nice to think everything can be made in your own country, I like to buy British (as I'm over the pond... yes I'm a limey).... But most of all, I like to be able to afford to buy what I want... Which means some things must come from overseas... 

     

    keep the faith my man

     

    Rowbi

  • Karl_Houseknecht Expert Line 6 User 3,732 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007

    Much as I'd like that, being an American and all, two things:

     

    1.  Line6 Is an American company.  Americans worked on and designed the models and the amp.

    2.  Exactly how much do you want your amp to cost?  American labor ain't cheap.

  • silverhead Expert Line 6 User 9,592 posts since
    Apr 1, 2009

    I'll get a little philosophical for a moment.............

     

    I think of off-shore labour as a non-violent means of achieving more equitable global distribution of wealth. I'd rather have the much more populous countries in Asia begin to catch up through a gradual and peaceful transfer of economic wealth, rather than eventual global warfare. The simple truth is that the mass communications of today allow the developing countries to see and experience inequitable wealth distribution in ways they never have before. They see the lifestyles that we enjoy in North America and Western Europe - and they want it too. And it's going to be rebalanced over time, one way or another.

     

    We in Canada say that we don't like to see a lot of jobs going overseas too - but we're not willing to pay the price of Made in Canada products. The labour costs are just too high to remain competitive here. So the jobs go elsewhere, and I don't think that's a bad thing in the global economic context.

  • digiprod Just Startin' 616 posts since
    Jun 9, 2007

    I think your point should be made in Washington DC and in local governments. Almost nothing is made in the US these days. Any company that tries find themselves in regulation hell and finds they can not compete with their competitors that build overseas where the labor costs are lower and there is no regulation.

     

    Be happy Line 6 is an American company that does hire people!

  • LolofromParis Just Startin' 10 posts since
    Jan 14, 2007

    Who cares ? Quality matters.

     

    My japanese crafted Fender is as good as a US one.

  • BigChas52 Expert Line 6 User 2,315 posts since
    Mar 12, 2007

    The US finds itself in the unfortunate position of having labor that has, to a great extent, priced itself out of most manufacturing line jobs for consumer grade goods.  I work for a huge manufacturer of consumer grade (as well as business grade) IT products.  The majority of our consumer grade products are made overseas as well.  While I am extremely unhappy about this, The realities of corporate competitive business in the West dictate this to be the new norm.

     

    There are several factors that have contributed to this, including (in no particular order):

     

    Unionized labor (which today has much less of an impact than the next three);

    Access to low priced global workforces in underdeveloped countries,

    Increasing pressure from corporate shareholders to increase profits,

    Competitive pressure to keep prices low, which forces company executives to search for low cost labor.

     

    In addition to consumer goods manufacturing, we have also seen this rampant in the service support sector, where live customer support has been sent offshore to countries like, Mexice, Costa Rico, and India.

     

    It has been proven time and again that buyers will gravitate to lower priced goods over apparantly similar quality goods that are manufactured domestically.  Line 6 would sell a lot less of their stuff if they made it all domestically, and had to charge 50% to 75% more just to cover the increased cost of labor.  Would YOU want to pay that kind of difference?

     

    There IS a price associated with this though, and that price seems to be a general lowering of quality standards, and lax, or non-existant QA processes.  Shipping a certain amount of defective product, and exchanging it for, hopefully, one that works properly, seems to be an acceptable price to pay today.  The consumer pays for it through a gamble with quality, and the manufacturer pays for it through higher exchange rates and customer dissatisfaction.

     

    Just a side note, globalization of labor has nothing do do with Marxist ideals of "sharing the wealth."  It is more in line with Capitalist principles of money chasing the best prices for resources.  Some of these countries, price their labor unrealistically low by paying what amounts to slave wages, and manipulating their currency to keep themselves unfairly competitive.

     

    I would love to see Line 6, as well as the company I work for, do more of their manufacturing domestically, but I just don't see that happening.  The genie is absolutely out of the bottle.

     

    My $.02 USD

    • Karl_Houseknecht Expert Line 6 User 3,732 posts since
      Jan 25, 2007

      A friend of mine that works for a company that makes some of it's stuff overseas said that, in China, what you pay for manufacturing is proportional to the level of QC you get.  He said that some of the best factories over there will not only match USA quality, but some can even surpass it.  And they still come out at or below USA cost even when factoring in shipping, import tax, etc.  It's all in who you pick.

       

      He also said that there aren't many factories over there that make guitar amps.  In fact, there are far less factories than there are brands.  You know what that means, right?  It means that the same factories are rolling out multiple brands.  Some of the ones that are touted for "higher quality" because of their brand name are rolling off the same line as the "cheaper" ones.

    • moberi Just Startin' 12 posts since
      Oct 4, 2007

      You forgot to mention highly skewed free trade agreements in your list of "factors".

      • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
        Jan 24, 2007

        Perhaps, it could be as simple as lowering the corporate tax rates and castrating the EPA...EPA is likely the biggest cost standing in the way of manufacturing in USA...

         

        Basically, once an EPA agent says to some company, "ah yes, you are in compliance and all is good"....That EPA agent doesn't have a job anymore...The power is lopsided there IMO...And it just costs too much to do business here...

         

        Did the US really spend $10M to develop a Pakistani version Sesamie Street? Really?

        • digiprod Just Startin' 616 posts since
          Jun 9, 2007

          Ditto again! I could not agree more.

        • moberi Just Startin' 12 posts since
          Oct 4, 2007

          While most everything in this thread has validity, I also think a lot of the problem is simply greed and opportunity. I'm not speaking specifically about Line 6, but corporate America in general. A lot of these jobs could be done domestically and for decent wages without radical effect on prices. How could that work you ask? It works if a company is satisfied posting profits of 10 billion instead of 15 billion. These are arbitrary numbers to make the point that there are many companies that would do just fine (better than most of us) building here. The reason they go to China is no big mystery. It's to make MORE money and as long as corporations run the US, it's not going to change. They lobby for laws that make them the most money.

           

          Bogus free trade agreements allow the foreign markets free reign on the US. They pay little if any taxes, are not governed by US regulations, and pay their workers crap. It's not a level playing field.

           

          All that said, most consumers buy as cheap as they can. Wouldn't you expect corporations to do the same?

          • silverhead Expert Line 6 User 9,592 posts since
            Apr 1, 2009

            There's just one small problem with that. The bylaws of most corporations stipulate that the primary mandate of the corporation is to maximize profits for its shareholders. Any Executives and Directors of the corporation who knowingly make decisions contrary to that goal are usually immediately terminsated by the shareholders, and potentially personally liable for associated lost profits.

             

            It's not greedy executives - it's the heart of capitalism.

            • moberi Just Startin' 12 posts since
              Oct 4, 2007

              I agree- My point exactly. The heart of capitalism IS greed!

              • silverhead Expert Line 6 User 9,592 posts since
                Apr 1, 2009

                +1

                 

                And don't forget fear - that's the other main motivator of investors in capital markets. And the corporations are obliged to always act in the best interests of the greedy and fearful.

              • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
                Jan 24, 2007

                US Corporate Tax

                hmmm....35% tax rate isn't competative...If your business makes $100,000.01-$334,999.99 then your tax rate is 39%...It's no wonder that there really aren't any mom & pop shops anymore...That is the highest rate in the table...

                 

                China has a standard rate of 25%...20% for small to medium enterprises and 15% for high-technology or state sponsored...

                 

                The profit margin of the fortune 50 company that I work for is not as thick as you imply...In fact, we have one of the lowest paid CEOs in the world for company that does 10B in revenue...

                 

                I think your opinion is not well informed...Greed is nothing more than a motivating side effect of a free market economy...It will always be there, but that does not mean the generalization can be made that ALL companies are greedy...That's a silly emotional argument made out of frustration...

                 

                I agree a lot is broken, but corporate greed is not the root cause of it...Now had you said, "Congressional Greed" in form of Fannie and Freddie...There is a lot I would agree with on that point...

              • phil_m Expert Line 6 User 4,243 posts since
                Jan 25, 2007

                Actually, the heart of capitalism is competition. That's why your example above isn't really realistic. Yes, while a company may want to create manufacturing jobs in the US, they will find that their competitors are perfectly willing to outsource stuff if they can, and get the jump on them. Smart businesses don't simply aquire cash for the sake of hoarding it - they invest back in the business in the way of R&D and planning for the future.

                • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User 11,829 posts since
                  Dec 22, 2006

                  Phil nailed it....

                  competition drives it....

                  if your competitor is paying 30% less taxes/wages than you... something has to give...

                  it would make no sense for that to be profit... because that's why people invest....

                  no profit=no investors=no company

                   

                  its called a hyper competitive market and any cost cutting or other improvement of 1% over your competitors makes it that much harder for them to compete... if they try the wrong ways... quality goes down etc... and their customers look elsewhere in the market to fill their needs... which gives the bigger more efficient oiperation access to a larger market share...controlling marketshare can allow you to set prices that fewer and fewer others can compete with... (walmart for example)

                  anyway... that's my MBA speaking....

                  but calling everything "greed"... nonsense... you can't control this "greed" without controlling the market itself... and the manufacturing market specifically is not under USA control... or any other singular government or entity for that matter.

  • bluecollarirons Just Startin' 7 posts since
    Apr 9, 2012

    I THINK LINE 6 SHOULD HAVE BOTH AMERICAN MADE FOR THOSE OF US WHO WANT AND CAN AFFORD QUALITY. AND THEN CHINESE MADE FOR THOSE WHO WANT GARBAGE THATS GONNA BREAK IN A FEW MONTHS. I WENT THROUGH 3 HD147 HEADS IN 2 MONTHS. THEY SOUNDED AMAZING BUT ANYTHING MADE IN CHINA IS GARBAGE. PERIOD. ITS NOT MADE TO LAST. JUST LIKE FENDER AND GIBSON DO BOTH I THINK LINE 6 SHOULD AS WELL. PEOPLE SPEND 3 GRAND ON AMPS EVERY DAY. THERES MESA, ORANGE, MATCHLESS ETC. ARE THESE COMPANIES GOING OUT OF BUSINESS?? NO. SO TO SAY LINE 6 WOULD GO OUTA BUSINESS IF THEY MADE USA QUIALITY AMPS IS UBSURD. ITS JUST THAT THE PEOPLE WHO OWN THE COMPANY ARE GREEDY AND ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS MAKING MONEY. NOPT PUTTING OUT A GOOD PRODUCT.

    • silverhead Expert Line 6 User 9,592 posts since
      Apr 1, 2009

      Line 6 is doing what you ask with their JTV guitars. Personally, I own the Korean JTV-59. It is definitely not 'garbage that's going to break in a few months'.

       

      http://line6.com/guitars#jamestylervariax

      http://line6.com/guitars#jamestylervariaxuscustomshop

    • phil_m Expert Line 6 User 4,243 posts since
      Jan 25, 2007

      THERES MESA, ORANGE, MATCHLESS ETC. ARE THESE COMPANIES GOING OUT OF BUSINESS??

       

      Actually, Orange has a bunch of amps that are made in China now. Mesa and Matchless are kind of completely different beasts. They make products that are simply out of reach for many guitarists.

       

      I don't think there's inherently anything inferior with Chinese factories versus American ones. It really just comes down to how tightly a company can oversee quality assurance and the supply chain. Look at a company like Apple. Their products are generally top-notch in terms of quality of construction, and they're pretty much all made in China. Line 6 isn't nearly as big as Apple, though, so keeping tight reins on their manufacturing is going to be more challenging. I think overall they do a good job. There's always room for improvement, though.

    • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
      Jan 24, 2007

      My opinion is that your opinion is GARBAGE!

      • Duker63 Just Startin' 52 posts since
        Jun 15, 2012

        Whoa

        Let's see

        -EPA is destroying business in the USA

        -Unions are destroying business in the USA

        -regulation is killing business in the USA

         

        Ill address all 3

         

        Do you like clean drinking water and a backyard that wont cause you cancer?

         

        Unions are not destroying business in the USA greed is as a CNC machinist I can tell you that the bottom dollar is what drives business. I worked at a machine shop that bought castings from CHina. You know what China does?

        It sells us stuff at below cost to them with the simple strategy of driving domestic production here out of business, and as far as companys locating there. China makes it very attractive. It is the cheapest way for them to steal technology. With the added benefit that since you cannot own land there it is only a matter of time before they nationalize all your property over there. Leaving you with nothing and them with all the tools of production you invested in

         

        What do you think of todays economy? Well you can thank both the non enforcement of current regulations under the last administration and the rolling back of regulations for that

         

        I bought the HD500 becuase I could afford it. If they made it here. it would probably cost 20 bucks more. Labor is not the biggest factor in most goods. material costs are.

        • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User 11,829 posts since
          Dec 22, 2006

          The EPA is foolishly over grasping....

          sure the environment is cool and all... but it's for our USE not our preservation... we need to use it responsibly not deny all use... they really should be disbanded as an agency and those laws enforced through regular law enforcement etc...

           

          Unions are the devil.... i've been in them and know how truly worthless they are.... they add layers of complexity to everyday operating issues... take money from workers to pursue their own agendas (regardless of whether or not those workers agree)... everything that made unions good in the beginning... is basically law now, and applies to nearly every employer/employee situation... things that don't apply to everyone outside of unions... are likely prime examples of union redtape or over-reaching....

           

          regulations... common sense should be regulation enough... perhaps sometimes it isn't.... but adding vinegar to the water because of a few bad apples... does not enhance the flavor of the remaining apples.

           

          today's economy... well you simply can't spend your way out of a hole... and raising taxes... (giving more money to the government) who has proven time and again that they have no money management skills is far from a solution....

          when they can prove they can use what they get now with intelligence.. then maybe we could up the taxes....

          in some manner that doesn't provide 47% of americans with a free ride... while those some americans scream garbage about "fair share"...

          a percent is a percent... how is 0% a fair share for some... and 35% not a fair share for others....

          there's your greed (governement).

    • Karl_Houseknecht Expert Line 6 User 3,732 posts since
      Jan 25, 2007

      bluecollarirons wrote:

       

      PEOPLE SPEND 3 GRAND ON AMPS EVERY DAY. THERES MESA, ORANGE, MATCHLESS ETC.

       

      I think you just made everyone else's point that's arguing against USA manufacturing.  Mesa amps are hand-built in the USA, and yes, they do cost more.  A lot more than most Chinese made amps.

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