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648 Views 18 Replies Latest reply: Jan 21, 2012 9:55 AM by scifi76 RSS
scifi76 Just Startin'
scifi76
12 posts since
Dec 29, 2011
Currently Being Moderated

Jan 15, 2012 10:03 AM

Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

Hi all,

 

I just bought a new POD HD 500 about 2 weeks ago which I decided to buy to use for home recording through my PC and also practicing / small gigs through a mixer and PA. After plenty of tweaking and messing about with the POD I have been unable to get satisfactory tones out of the POD, especially when going through the PA. I have seen plenty of posts on this forum about similar issues and possible solutions that I have tried without success. I have been left somewhat confused so hope someone out there can help me:

 

It's hard to described the problem, but I would say I am getting a very harsh sounding distortion especially on mid to high gain patches. Also I can't seem to get the sound to cut through the mix when playing live with drums, bass and other guitarists. It just seems to wash away into high end gritty fuzz that makes me wanna puke!

 

Part of me suspects (and hopes) I just have something wrong with the setup, or that it's my ears or something.

 

Please listen to the 2 attached recordings and let me know if you hear anything abnormal.

 

Clean: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57379654/Clean.wav

This is a recording of an open E chord using a new preset with no amp. My pickups have been lowered. This sounds "wrong" to me compared to going clean through an amp. This is especially apparent when going through my studio monitors or headphones at higher voumes. I have PAD enabled on the guitar in.

 

SonOfPlexi: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57379654/SonOfPlexi.wav

This is an open E chord using the SonOfPlexi built in patch. To me it sounds really bad. I was hoping to compare it with others to see if this is normal.

 

I appreciate any help anyone can offer with this!

  • silverhead Expert Line 6 User
    silverhead
    9,592 posts since
    Apr 1, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 15, 2012 10:12 AM (in response to scifi76)
    Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

    For going direct to a mixer/PA, or connected to your PC for recording, you should make sure your HD500 Output is set to STUDIO / DIRECT. See the Output Options in the Setup menus. Hold down the View button to access Setup.

     

    Were these recordings made with Output Mode set to Studio / Direct?

    • scifi76 Just Startin'
      scifi76
      12 posts since
      Dec 29, 2011
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 15, 2012 10:40 AM (in response to silverhead)
      Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

      Hi. Firstly thanks for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it.

       

      Yes indeed these recordings were done using STUDIO/DIRECT. Also worth bearing in mind these were recorded directly from the POD using the USB interface, and not going through a mixer and PA.

       

      Whilst the mixer/pa setup is where the bad sound is most noticeable, I'm assuming this is because of the higher volumes. I get just as bad a sound through my headphones (monitors, but maybe not the best quality). The best sound I can get is through my studio monitors, but I have noticed these break up / fizz / crackle when turned up.

  • scotchtape800 Just Startin'
    scotchtape800
    46 posts since
    Mar 3, 2011
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 15, 2012 11:16 AM (in response to scifi76)
    Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

    Yeah make sure you do what silverhead said.

    Sounds like you recorded those with neck pickup of a humbucker LP style guitar?

     

    You may already know all this stuff but:

     

    - Do you have a good quality cable?  It sounds like the highs are washed out in the clean clip.

    If so look for a nice low impedance cable, lava cable is good but expensive.

     

    - I don't know what the quality of the recordings are (bit rate, interface, etc) but they don't sound very good!

    Not sure what your setup is so I can't comment on whether or not it's the HD500.

     

    - I may not be the best judge of that tone since I mainly use the AC30, but I think if you tweaked the EQ on the amp and maybe post or pre EQ would help too.  It sounds like there's a bit too much mids in there, not sure what type of sound you're going for. 

     

    - ANOTHER IMPORTANT NOTE / TRICK

    In the editor, look at INPUT 1 SOURCE and INPUT 2 SOURCE

    By default, for some reason unbeknowst to me, it defaults to doubling your guitar signal.

    This really messes up the sound.  To fix this select GUITAR for 1 and AUX or something else for 2.  Variax is fine too.  Anything that is not an audio input you are using.

    I can't emphasize this enough!

    Hopefully this will fix most of the issues... remember to turn the pad off again once you do this.

    I have a feeling this is what's causing the clipping and tone sucked sound (over compression due to signal doubling)

     

    - Assuming you've had tweaking experience before with modelers, it's quite annoying.  Try thinking in stages, like I want my general amp to sound like XYZ, but then use a post EQ to shape it more... I usually boost mids pre EQ or on the amp, but cut it on post EQ.  That way you get the nice mid range sound character, but cut back on the muddiness.

     

    - Here is my test file, clean, stock patch, edited patch for like a min

    Guitar is a strat lonestar, humbucker bridge.

    Personally, I don't play anything related to this sound but just as a comparison for you:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/227773/HD%20500%20Test.mp3

    • scifi76 Just Startin'
      scifi76
      12 posts since
      Dec 29, 2011
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 15, 2012 12:01 PM (in response to scotchtape800)
      Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

      In answer to scotchtape800:

       

       

      Sounds like you recorded those with neck pickup of a humbucker LP style guitar?

      Actually it's the bridge pickup of a PRS SE Custom 24, with stock humbuckers. Interesting that you thought it was the neck pickup

       

      - Do you have a good quality cable?  It sounds like the highs are washed out in the clean clip.

      If so look for a nice low impedance cable, lava cable is good but expensive.

      I would say i'm using a fairly decent cable. Not entire sure of the make but it has always done me well until now. I've tried with different cables and get the same results

       

      - I don't know what the quality of the recordings are (bit rate, interface, etc) but they don't sound very good!

      Not sure what your setup is so I can't comment on whether or not it's the HD500.

      Recording was done using ableton live, using the POD via USB as the sound interface. Bit rate is 44khz

       

      - I may not be the best judge of that tone since I mainly use the AC30, but I think if you tweaked the EQ on the amp and maybe post or pre EQ would help too.  It sounds like there's a bit too much mids in there, not sure what type of sound you're going for.

      The clean sample was 100% clean. No amp model, no effect, no nothing. Just my guitar straght into a new preset. The point of this was to try to identify if there was input clipping coming from the guitar

       

      - ANOTHER IMPORTANT NOTE / TRICK

      In the editor, look at INPUT 1 SOURCE and INPUT 2 SOURCE

      By default, for some reason unbeknowst to me, it defaults to doubling your guitar signal.

      This really messes up the sound.  To fix this select GUITAR for 1 and AUX or something else for 2.  Variax is fine too.  Anything that is not an audio input you are using.

      I can't emphasize this enough!

      Hopefully this will fix most of the issues... remember to turn the pad off again once you do this.

      I have a feeling this is what's causing the clipping and tone sucked sound (over compression due to signal doubling)

       

      Yeah I have read a lot about this on these forums. Admittedly, the recordings were taken using the default setting, however I have tried the suggested setting previously with no improvement. I can re-record the samples if required.

       

      Thanks for the suggestions but they don't seem to help me. Could you possibly post the patch you used for the sample wav you provided? This would allow me to compare my sound (although it won't be exactly the same) with yours.

  • linz Just Startin'
    linz
    27 posts since
    Feb 12, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 15, 2012 11:04 AM (in response to scifi76)
    Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

    I've had my HD500 for a few weeks now and I've considered ditching it on a few occassions!!  However, I realise I've just been going about things the wrong way.  I'd definitely recommend persevering with it 'cause I'm starting to get some really nice tones.

     

    First off, as I'm sure most people realise, the presets suck.  It's the same for every modeler I've tried (even worse on Roland/Boss gear).  I think, along with the great advice others have given you, the main thing is not to overdo any one paramater.  For example, I'm not able to get a good driven tone from any of the amps I choose by upping the gain.  I've learned that I always need to use an overdrive/distorition to get the sound I want.  This means I'm not using extreme gain on either the stomp model or the amp.  That really seems to make a difference to me.  I guess, if I thinkn about it, I've not had many amps I can just plug straight into and get the sound I want - I usually add a boost or OD in front.  It seems to be the same for the HD series - after all, they are modeling an entire chain so it makes sense to expect everything to interact in the same way as the real world.

     

    The input modes definitely make a difference, as does the impedance setting (for me anyway).  Some of the amp models just don't sound that great to me, but then again, I probably wouldn't be a fan of the real thing either.  I think maybe there's a huge selection to cover everyone out there's taste rather than expecting one musician to use all that's available (if that makes sense!).  I'll probably settle on one or two amp models and use EQ/OD the same as I would in real life.

     

    You mentioned in the clean clip that you're not using an amp.  Does that mean you're hooking straight up to the HD, disabling the amp then recording the output via USB?  That's like recording direct into a desk - you won't get any speaker simulation so it's not going to sound like a clean amp.  Maybe I picked you up wrong though.

     

    Anyway, good luck!

    • scifi76 Just Startin'
      scifi76
      12 posts since
      Dec 29, 2011
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 15, 2012 12:08 PM (in response to linz)
      Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

      Linz - you're right, I meant I wasn't using any amp / speaker simulation, but the purpose was to see if anyone can identify whether input clipping is occuring.

       

      I was just trying to eliminate any amp models, effects or extra gain that might be causing the problems.

       

      I was hoping someone might be able to tell me whether my recordngs sound normal or not, considering it was an empty patch (no amp or effects)

      • scotchtape800 Just Startin'
        scotchtape800
        46 posts since
        Mar 3, 2011
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jan 15, 2012 8:03 PM (in response to scifi76)
        Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

        The sample file I had was:

        Clean / Default Patch SonofPlexi / Edited some stuff in that patch.

         

        That patch has some weird stuff on by default.  I can't send it to you because I didn't save what I changed.

        The only thing I changed in the second clip was the input section.

         

        I thought it was the neck but then I listened to it again and figured it was the bridge but forgot to change my reply

         

         

         

        Not sure what else to say, if you can't get a good clean tone, obviously nothing will really sound good

        Honestly though, just start from scratch and see if you can't get a good tone with the input section figured out right.

         

         

        I wasn't too impressed with the HD500 when I first got it, but I really like it now!  Esp after 1.4, which I just updated to a few days ago.  Or maybe I'm comparing it to Guitar Rig 5 which has a terrible AC30 model in it

         

        Maybe try someone elses to see if your Pod is screwed up???

      • jimsreynolds Power User
        jimsreynolds
        2,227 posts since
        Jun 27, 43450
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jan 16, 2012 1:07 AM (in response to scifi76)
        Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

        scifi76 wrote:

         

        Linz - you're right, I meant I wasn't using any amp / speaker simulation, but the purpose was to see if anyone can identify whether input clipping is occuring.

        Another forum user, Meambobbo, came up with a good check for that.   Just kick on the tuner and play hard.  If you hear clipping/noise then you are overloading the input.  The fixes available are Input (change to guitar/variax), the pad switch and reducing pickup heights (which I think you have already done). Make sure that the Tuner is not bypassed/silent I can't say it is the definitive test but it seems pretty sensible to me.

         

        Certain effects also seem to have low headroom and can easily get clipped off if the input signal is too high.   If your input is not clipping, you could try using an effect like a studio EQ early in the chain and use the gain parameter to reduce the gain (cleanly) before it hits the rest of the chain.  You may need to compensate later down the line.

         

        Also, if your Volume knob is high (channel volume not master) then there is an increased risk of 'post' amp effects clipping.  Try setting the volume at around 50% for now and make up the shortfall with the master and upstream recorder/amp.  See how that leaves your tone.

         

        Cant listen to your samples right now as dont have good enough playback capability but I will try to later.

        • scifi76 Just Startin'
          scifi76
          12 posts since
          Dec 29, 2011
          Currently Being Moderated
          Jan 16, 2012 12:09 PM (in response to jimsreynolds)
          Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

          Another forum user, Meambobbo, came up with a good check for that.   Just kick on the tuner and play hard.  If you hear clipping/noise then you are overloading the input.  The fixes available are Input (change to guitar/variax), the pad switch and reducing pickup heights (which I think you have already done). Make sure that the Tuner is not bypassed/silent I can't say it is the definitive test but it seems pretty sensible to me.

           

           

          Hmm interesting. I've just tried this test, which is elegent in it's simplicity. With the POD master volume set to 100% and my studio monitors set to about 50% I start to get pops and crackles which are very evident. At lower volumes there is still a fuzz / compressed / flat kind of sound which is less prominent but still sounds wrong to me.

           

          So am I correct in that this means the clipping is occuring before the POD touches the signal, and therefore the POD is working correctly? TBH I hope this is the case, as I really like the functionality the POD offers and I don't want to send it back.

           

          Having said that I'm not quite sure what to do next. My pickups are already as low as they will go. Has anyone got any experience with stock PRS SE pickups? I've never got into the realms of installing custom pickups, but maybe I should look at this as an option?

           

          Any advice greatly appreciated.

           

          P.S. Thanks to everyone involved for the wonderful support so far. Community support really adds a world of difference to products like this

  • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo
    meambobbo
    1,702 posts since
    Dec 13, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 17, 2012 9:31 PM (in response to scifi76)
    Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

    My turn to chime in.  The clean patch is clean.  that's good.  no input clipping.

     

    the plexi patch sounds like you're getting that splatty power amp distortion.  i'm not familiar with the stock patch, but I'd guess it's the Park 75 model, although I wouldn't be surprised if it was the J800.  If it's the Park, it sounds like you've got the amp drive and Master Volume cranked.

     

    Here's the kicker.  The power amp sections on these amps will get nasty if they're driven hard and you give them too much presence (frequencies around 2 kHZ).  For the Park, if I have the Master Volume set up high, I turn down presence a lot, maybe even completely.  If this cleans up the tone, but you still want more presence, use an EQ effect after the amp block to dial it in.

     

    I'm also not a huge fan of the default Bias settings (50%).  I like to turn them down a bit.  This makes the power amp sections distort a bit more (and initially nastier), but you can turn down Master Volume and get a similar level of distortion.  Then although you get as much distortion, it seems cleaner - less like you're trying to kill the amp.  Also play with the bias X control.  I like to turn it down to "lock in" the bias setting I choose, but you might find the tone cleaner doing the opposite - I like to turn it up on the Blackface dbl to clean up the "crossover distortion", which sounds similarly splatty, like you're trying to kill the amp.

     

    As far as the Master knob goes, turning it up too high can distort external gear, but this has to do with the overall Pod output level, not that individual setting.  In general turning this up is the cleanest way to get volume out the unit.  Amp/Channel Volume will amplify the signal at the amp block's location in the chain, which can cause problems for sensitive effects behind it (particularly the parametric EQ).  Same for the mixer.  Overall, if you put too much gain on one or a combination of blocks in your chain, you can exceed the Pod's resolution and get digital clipping.  The Master knob doesn't have this issue.  My issue with it is that with it maxed out, it clips my combo amp's "power amp in" input.  So I gotta back off until the signal is clean.

     

    I like amp volume set to 40%, mixer set to 0-3 db, and Master knob at 90%.  I'd try reducing the Master Volume to between 60 and 80%, to see if this cleans up the tone a little.  Try reducing presence to clean it up more.  If you lose too much distortion, try adding it in with the Drive parameter for pre-amp distortion.  Also reduce Bias.  The Marshall type amp models are a balancing act.

     

    Finally keep in mind that if you are getting a good bit of power amp distortion, the EQ controls will affect the distortion tone moreso than they'll change the EQ.  You really have to use EQ effects after the amp to fine-tune the end result.

  • Line6david Line 6 Support
    Line6david
    5,196 posts since
    Jan 27, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 19, 2012 11:49 AM (in response to scifi76)
    Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

    Hi,

     

    +1 to meanbobbo, after reviewing the soundclips with a nice set of sennheiser headphones I would conclude that I can find no fault with the model. Mabey I'm missing something, and please correct me if I'm wrong but having owned a JCM800 2X12 Combo for a number of years I would conclude that this sounds like a Marshall to me. Aggressive Mids, Shelved highs and a "Spongy", pushed breakup. I'm not trying to toe the company line here but I can't for the life of me find fault with the sound clip. What specifically are you trying to do? Also, again, please correct me if I'm missing something obvious.

     

    Thanks,

    David

    Line 6 Customer Support

    • scifi76 Just Startin'
      scifi76
      12 posts since
      Dec 29, 2011
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 21, 2012 2:35 AM (in response to Line6david)
      Re: Does this sound right to you? (Another clipping / fizz post) - Help please!

      I guess I'm not really sure. To me the plexi recording just sounds very harsh and messy and not really what I had expected at all. And the pure clean tone has something about it that just feels wrong to me when playing. It's hard to describe

       

      As I said my last post, I have found that it is possible to get good sounds out of my POD, so I'm pretty sure there's no fault with it, but maybe just that there is a really fine balance to get what I would consider a useable tone and a LOT of tweaking needed. This is to be expected with modelling equipment but I guess I'm just surprised at just how much this is true. Also I know the equipment i'm plugging into makes a big difference, which makes it really hard to pre-program a good tone without having to completely re-work it on stage (again I know this is normal to some extent).

       

      Overall I'm happy with the POD, but maybe just a little bit frustrated. I've had it for just over 3 weeks and I've only just managed to find a tone that sounds good at volume (although I actually forgot to save it!). I'm also aware that this could just be me being picky.

       

      My biggest concern is that the bypassed clean tone sounds wrong and crackles at high volume. Again it's very possible that this is not the fault of the POD and I need to do more tests to figure out what's going on.

       

      Maybe I need to download some good tones from CustomTone and see what "tricks" people are using to get great sounds out of the POD. Any recommendations?

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