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372 Views 20 Replies Latest reply: Jan 21, 2012 2:43 PM by digiprod RSS
ronaldkauffman Just Startin'
ronaldkauffman
18 posts since
Oct 27, 2009
Currently Being Moderated

Jan 14, 2012 5:23 AM

DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

I was wandering when using the POD HD500 with a DT50 via L6 Link do the pre amp tubes (the 12AX7 Tubes) get used with the POD HD500 preamp models or are the preamp tubes bypassed and the POD HD500 replace the preamp section

 

I know that with the Spider Valave MKII the preamp tubes are used as well as an all tube power amp section.  The modeling is in where the Tone Stacks are in the amp.  I just wandered if that is what is happening with the POD HD500 and the DT50 via L6 link.  Does the POD HD500 insert itself into the Tone Stacks of the DT50 allowing you to get that great tube saturation fom the preamp tubes but the flexability from the modeling, or does the POD HD500 replace the entire preamp section and not use the 12AX7 preamp tubes at all?

 

Please let me know.

 

Thank you everyone for your time and attention to this matter.

  • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User
    TheRealZap
    11,829 posts since
    Dec 22, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 14, 2012 5:55 AM (in response to ronaldkauffman)
    Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

    common mis-understood area.. the DT50 has no preamp tubes...

    the preamps are always modeled....

    the "pre-amp" tubes server other functions...

    • ronaldkauffman Just Startin'
      ronaldkauffman
      18 posts since
      Oct 27, 2009
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 14, 2012 11:18 AM (in response to TheRealZap)
      Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

      What other functions do the "pre-amp" tubes in the DT50 serve?

    • Iknowathingortwo
      MerlinFL
      1,667 posts since
      Jul 17, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 14, 2012 3:54 PM (in response to TheRealZap)
      Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

      TheRealZap wrote:

       

      common mis-understood area.. the DT50 has no preamp tubes...

      the preamps are always modeled....

      the "pre-amp" tubes server other functions...

      Really??  I've opened the back of my DT50 1x12 and it sure looks like there are preamp tubes in there next to the power tubes.  If those are not preamp tubes and the amp has no preamp tubes, then...

       

      1. What am I seeing that look like preamp tubes?
      2. How would the amp function without any POD HD in front of it to model the preamp section if none physically exists inside the amp?
      3. What are the "other functions" those tubes you mentioned?

       

      If I'm going to give advice or answers, this I need to get cleared up so I do not give incorrect info in the future.

       

      Thanks and take care,

      Neal

      • ronaldkauffman Just Startin'
        ronaldkauffman
        18 posts since
        Oct 27, 2009
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jan 14, 2012 5:15 PM (in response to MerlinFL)
        Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

        I have to say that a tube amp needs preamp tubes to generate the harmonic distortion of the preamp section(i.e.  the genisis of the tone).  Even the Spider Valve amps use tubes to make the preamp function.  The Tone stacks of that amp are modeled sounds but the tubes need to be there for it to run. 

         

        I have seen other dedicated power amps use 12AX7 preamp tubes for the precence control but the DT series of amps does not have  a precence knob anywhere on it.  Also reverb,  but I know that the DT amps use digital reverb and that does not need any tubes to power it.

         

        Again, what are the other functions of ths amp that a pair of 12AX7's would power?

        • Nick_Mattocks Best of the Best
          Nick_Mattocks
          9,065 posts since
          Mar 26, 2007
          Currently Being Moderated
          Jan 15, 2012 2:10 AM (in response to ronaldkauffman)
          Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

          There is naturally some confusion about the function of the 12AX7 tubes in the DT50 which has two and the DT25 which has one.  In the traditional sense these are not pre-amp tubes as Zap indicated.  They do not affect the gain and tone at all as would be the case in a traditional valve preamp section.

           

          The 12AX7 tubes live in the power amp stage of the DT-25 and DT-50 as they do in the Spider Valve series.

           

          The pre-amp section in the traditional sense for the DT-xx and Spider Valve series is solid state.

           

          I have both a DT-25 head/cab and a DT-50 212 and for the DT-50 the function of the 12AX7's there is that one acts as a clean 'buffer' or boost which I suppose could be argued is a preamp function of sorts to drive the second 12AX7 is used as a phase inverter to feed the EL34s.  This is the same for the Spider Valve, except it uses 5881 power tubes.

           

          As for the DT-25, I assume (because I haven't looked into it in any depth yet) that the single 12AX7 is used as the PI and that buffering is solid state and this may go some way to explaining why the DT-25 can provide a silent DI signal in low power mode with Standby OFF and the DT-50 cannot do this, but I am speculating here a little.

           

          As you'll find if you check in the DT25/DT50 support forum, this question has been asked and answered quite a few times, but tradititional pre-amp functionality for all the amps mentioned is tied in with DSP modelling and is definitely solid state.

           

          When you use a POD HD family unit with L6 Link and a DT-xx series amplifier, the POD takes on the function of preamp and modeller.  The general recommendation when using both a POD HD and DT-xx is to use PRE amp models, but you can of course use the full amp models if you wish and if they match what you are trying to achieve better.  It all comes down to trusting your ears

           

          Nick

          • ronaldkauffman Just Startin'
            ronaldkauffman
            18 posts since
            Oct 27, 2009
            Currently Being Moderated
            Jan 15, 2012 3:58 AM (in response to Nick_Mattocks)
            Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

            Nick,

             

            Thank you for the clarification.  So are you saying that the 12AX7 tubes in the DT50/DT25 will function the same way with a POD HD500?

             

            Meaning that the function they serve in the DT50 by itself without a POD HD500 using L6 link  will be the same with the POD HD500 using L6 link where, as you said, one of the 12AX7 tubes acts as a clean 'buffer' or boost which is used to drive the second 12AX7 being used as a phase inverter to feed the EL34s?

            • Nick_Mattocks Best of the Best
              Nick_Mattocks
              9,065 posts since
              Mar 26, 2007
              Currently Being Moderated
              Jan 15, 2012 4:25 AM (in response to ronaldkauffman)
              Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

              The 12AX7's are part of the power amp section in all current DT-xx amps, so if you are using a DT-xx with a POD HD connected by L6 Link and with Standby ON, the 12AX7s will be in use the same as they are when you use a DT-xx stand-alone.  In other words: if the amp is fully switched on the 12AX7s are always used irrespective of what you are using as a front end (i.e. POD or built in preamp/modeller)

               

              Nick

      • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User
        TheRealZap
        11,829 posts since
        Dec 22, 2006
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jan 15, 2012 7:31 AM (in response to MerlinFL)
        Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

        the basics on the 2 "pre-amp" tubes:

        One boosts the overall level of the modeled pre-amp output to drive the power amp tubes and the other is used as an inverter.

        neither of which is directly used as an analog pre-amp.

      • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User
        TheRealZap
        11,829 posts since
        Dec 22, 2006
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jan 15, 2012 7:44 AM (in response to MerlinFL)
        Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

        MerlinFL wrote:

         

         

        1. What am I seeing that look like preamp tubes?

        from other post:

        the basics on the 2 "pre-amp" tubes:

        One boosts the overall level of the modeled pre-amp output to drive the power amp tubes and the other is used as an inverter.

        neither of which is directly used as an analog pre-amp.

        MerlinFL wrote:

        How would the amp function without any POD HD in front of it to model the preamp section if none physically exists inside the amp?

        the DT50/DT25 contain pre-amp models in their firmware.

         

        MerlinFL wrote:

        What are the "other functions" those tubes you mentioned?

        from other post:

        the basics on the 2 "pre-amp" tubes:

        One boosts the overall level of the modeled pre-amp output to drive the power amp tubes and the other is used as an inverter.

        neither of which is directly used as an analog pre-amp.

        • Iknowathingortwo
          MerlinFL
          1,667 posts since
          Jul 17, 2007
          Currently Being Moderated
          Jan 18, 2012 6:41 PM (in response to TheRealZap)
          Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

          Thanks for clearing that up for me guys and especially Zap for taking apart my query and answering each part one by one.

           

          Still seems weird to me, but if that is how it's done, then the amp is a hybrid in a more unconventional way, right??

           

          Take care,

          Neal

          • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User
            TheRealZap
            11,829 posts since
            Dec 22, 2006
            Currently Being Moderated
            Jan 20, 2012 6:08 AM (in response to MerlinFL)
            Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

            yes it's a hybrid of sorts.. the power amp itself is still 100% analog, it's just fed a hybrid pre-amp signal.

            • Iknowathingortwo
              MerlinFL
              1,667 posts since
              Jul 17, 2007
              Currently Being Moderated
              Jan 20, 2012 12:20 PM (in response to TheRealZap)
              Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

              Was there any ads or other written promotions about the DT50 when they first came out as being "All Tube"? 

               

              I'm just curious if I'm remembering what was said correctly or not.  I'm still going to use the gear I have, but just figured I'd ask since there have been other "not-quite correct" info about other L6 gear when it was just coming out, etc.

               

              Take care,

              Neal

               

              PS - does anyone like this new look to the website?  I think there is too much "black" and wasted space.  As long as it works, that is the main thing.  It's just the esthetics & I'm wondering if anyone else feels the same?

              • digiprod Just Startin'
                digiprod
                616 posts since
                Jun 9, 2007
                Currently Being Moderated
                Jan 20, 2012 2:24 PM (in response to MerlinFL)
                Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

                Neal,

                 

                Some confusion may have come from the early Anderton videos seen on YouTube on the DT series and the Dream Rig. Lee claims in these videos that the DT25 for instance is ALL ANALOG and ALL Tube ignoring the models completely. In the Dream Rig video they claim the LVM - Low Volume Mode that the power tubes are still engaged to "warm up" the sound which is incorrect. I am pretty sure in the LVM the Power Section is mostly modeled as the DT series amps do not have an attenuator.

                 

                I am quite sure they were just mistaken as the videos are actually quite good and informative. I had to add a Weber Mini Mass 50 to my DT25 in order to keep it in my house. As you know the DT amps are quite loud.

                 

                Not crazy for the website, but hated the old site also. I am a bit of a website nerd as I have built and maintained many sites so I am probably a bit critical.

                • Iknowathingortwo
                  MerlinFL
                  1,667 posts since
                  Jul 17, 2007
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Jan 20, 2012 11:13 PM (in response to digiprod)
                  Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

                  @ digiprod - thanks for the further info on my mistaken impression on how the DT50 amps works.  I also had no idea the DT25s work differently than their bigger versions.  Seems strange to me to conceive & construct a completely different physical and functional design just because the amp is "simply half the power".  Which I guess is probably not exactly accurate either.  My own opinion of the Master volume pulled out is not something I like nor will I ever use except for simply testing patches.  I might be in the minority on this topic, but it's just my opinon.

                   

                  I hadn't seen any of the usually well done and accurate videos from Andertons in the UK regarding the DT line of products as I was fortunate enough to be experiencing my own DT50 2x12 which was way too heavy to carry with a poorly designed handle and insanely loud.  Then to a pair of DT50 1x12 which are a bit lighter and honestly do sound much better individually and especially in tandem.  All this time I thought the front and back were a typical all tube construction like a Marshall for example with just the Line 6 "techno-magic" to make the topologies, triode/pentode, Class A Class A/B physically change, etc.  BUT - it's always great to learn what IS the correct situation.  It doesn't change my fondness for the "Dream Rig" combination, but I feel it's only a true dream rig with the older gear added in that makes up for all the pieces missing in the newer gear.  Looking forward to all the new functionality of the new POD HD update to 2.0 where the guitar can be a controller like Roland gives the option of with the GK-3 pickup into their latest GR-55.

                   

                  Anyway - perhaps you might "suggest" some ideas to the IT department on how better to lay out this website?  Just a thought.

                   

                  Oh, and what do you think about Line 6 spending all the time, resources, and production costs to get into the PA business??  Do you think they are produced at World Music in Korea or somewhere else?  I only know that World Music does PRS and Line 6 guitars.  I'm certain that they must do many other things, but no idea if they do powered PA gear?  I don't understand why the company would delve into this arena when it's so well tied up with many tried and true brand names.  Also, why not spend those resources into the bass side (for example of just one idea) of the company which is stagnant at this point in time.  I started a forum asking just that very question if you wish to post your thoughts there.

                   

                  Thanks again and take care,

                  Neal

                  • digiprod Just Startin'
                    digiprod
                    616 posts since
                    Jun 9, 2007
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Jan 21, 2012 10:01 AM (in response to MerlinFL)
                    Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

                    Neal,

                     

                    I am not sure the DT50 and DT25 is that much different as far as the amp architecture goes. They use differen power tubes but the switching and analog/ digital sections are probably quite close. I have never had a DT50 up close and bought the DT25 online as no one had one to demo nearby here in NJ. I believe the DT25 which i like a lot is mostly analog.

                     

                    The Anderton video on the Dream Rig is here:

                     

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9E2eXXwW28&feature=youtube_gdata_player

                     

                    This video Is pretty good and helped me decide to give the DT25 a try. Was not happy with the sounds I was getting from the HD500 and JTV-59 into my studio speakers or using the various connection technics with my other smaller tube amps (Modified Fender Blues Jr, Modified Fender Super Champ XD, Blackstar). This is why I actually returned my first HD500 after 40 days.

                     

                    I bought the second HD500 to give it another try. I made the jump because I got a demo hardly ever used one for $400. Well the new firmware 1.4 had improved it, but the amp issue remained. So I was looking into getting something like the Tech21 Power Engine as they only cost about $340 or so.

                     

                    The DT25 is a really nice amp, but away too loud for home use. The Mater volume of course helps and the LVM is a nice feature, but absolutely changes the tone. It uses modeling for the power tubes. I ended up putting a Weber Mini Mass 50 attenuator on the DT25. This helps tame the beast for home use. I would not say it is now bedroom volume, but it is now usable in my house.

                     

                    Home studio playing is always a challenge as you want to be able to push the tubes to get the desired effects and sometimes need a clean tone from an amp with some headroom, but at a volume that does not melt the walls. I never have liked any pure digital amp, never sound great to my ears. I demo the other Line 6 amps and was not crazy about any of them, but I do like the DT25, just wished that Line 6 put out a DT10 with lower wattage and volume. Just about every amp company makes a low wattage amp these days. I am looking forward to the 2.0 update.

                     

                    Check out Bogner's Mephisto new amp he introduced at NAMM this week:

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghg4jQDsFqI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

                     

                    This amp is a pure analog tube amp that can sound like a Vox, Fender, etc.

                     

                    Line 6 must have done som market research and saw an opportunity for a PA product. The hardware I am quite sure is being contracted out to somewhere in China (like most companies). South Korea is less known for this type of would although they do some.

                  • stumpsout Just Startin'
                    stumpsout
                    895 posts since
                    Jan 28, 2007
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Jan 21, 2012 12:18 PM (in response to MerlinFL)
                    Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

                    I suspect the Line 6 PA gear has a connection somehow to Bose. The inputs look the same, and even the name L3 is quite close to the L1 and L2 Bose models. Just my guess.

                    • Iknowathingortwo
                      MerlinFL
                      1,667 posts since
                      Jul 17, 2007
                      Currently Being Moderated
                      Jan 21, 2012 1:32 PM (in response to stumpsout)
                      Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

                      stumpsout wrote:

                       

                      I suspect the Line 6 PA gear has a connection somehow to Bose. The inputs look the same, and even the name L3 is quite close to the L1 and L2 Bose models. Just my guess.

                       

                      My thought too but very diffferent in what the Bose system is supposed to do verses what the L6 system is supposed to do.  Especially the console/recorder touch screen unit.  THAT is pretty cool and if it works as well as described would be one heck of a stand-out in the PA market.

                       

                      @digiprod - you're from NJ??  So am I from birth through 2001 when I moved here to Ocala, FL.  What part of NJ are you in?  And NO I'm not going to ask you what exit you live off of.  LOL

                       

                      As far as home recording, do  like I did when I was still a Marshall amp person, build a sound proof box that fits over the top of the amp or cabinet.  It works and in the typical home recordings you are not using room acoustics, this method gets the proper results with the right microphone in the right place inside the box.  Just a suggestion.

                       

                      Take care,

                      Neal

                      • stumpsout Just Startin'
                        stumpsout
                        895 posts since
                        Jan 28, 2007
                        Currently Being Moderated
                        Jan 21, 2012 1:46 PM (in response to MerlinFL)
                        Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

                        Some people may not notice or care that much, but I definitely notice the difference in sound of the EL34's versus the EL84's.

                        If you haven't tried the DT25 first, I would suggest it if you can. I tried the DT50 first and have found that i do prefer its' sound. Not that the DT25 is bad, but there is a difference to my ears.

                         

                        I like the new website, it's seeming better than the old one..could be better of course.

                        • digiprod Just Startin'
                          digiprod
                          616 posts since
                          Jun 9, 2007
                          Currently Being Moderated
                          Jan 21, 2012 2:43 PM (in response to stumpsout)
                          Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

                          I agree there is a difference in the tubes. The size box and other differences between the DT25 and DT50 I am sure affect the tone a bit. From me the DT25 is too loud so the cost, weight, and power of the DT50 was not even a consideration.

                      • digiprod Just Startin'
                        digiprod
                        616 posts since
                        Jun 9, 2007
                        Currently Being Moderated
                        Jan 21, 2012 2:40 PM (in response to MerlinFL)
                        Re: DT50 Preamp section with L6 link

                        Neal,

                        I knew you were from NJ as I have seen some of your other posts that mentioned it. I live in Bergen County, EXIT 18 or so, LOL, but I was born in staten island.

                         

                        The attenuator allows for me to survive another day in my house with my other half ;)

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