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342 Views 12 Replies Latest reply: Jul 30, 2012 8:04 AM by RipperShred RSS
RipperShred Just Startin'
RipperShred
82 posts since
Jul 26, 2009
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Jul 13, 2012 2:01 PM

Midi Controller message defaults to "On" for effect, regardless if the that controller is set to "On" or "Off" Pod HD Pro

Is it just me, or is it this unit? Preset changes are no problem on my Midimate, however if I have a footswitch assigned as a controller to toggle an effect on or off in a given patch/preset, the effect switches to "On" regardless.

 

I.E.: For instance I have a preset where I have the harmonizer set to off and a switch assigned to toggle it on and off on that preset, however when selecting that preset it automatically switches to on. I tried setting that switch to on hoping it would have the opposite effect, but when selecting that patch it's still set to on. So no matter the state of the controller message the effect assigned to it defaults to the "On" possition.

 

The work around is a seperate patch for with and with out, but that defeats the purpose of being able to toggle in and out. The switch will toggle on and off the effect when I press it, but that's only good if I stay on that single patch and switch it off with some fore-thought, but when you have at least 2/3 patches per song i'm tap dancing like it's an old fashion pedal-board (no offense to the pedalboard lovers, but I switched to rack/midi precisely because I don't want to do the tap dance).

 

Is it just the Rocktron Midimate, or is every midicontroller suffering from this - Is line6 purposely muddling midi functionality to herd us toward the FBVs, or is it just a hiccup they're going to fix?

Tags: midi, pedal, hd, switch, pod_hd_pro
  • jimsreynolds Power User
    jimsreynolds
    2,227 posts since
    Jun 27, 43450
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    Jul 13, 2012 4:23 PM (in response to RipperShred)
    Re: Midi Controller message defaults to "On" for effect, regardless if the that controller is set to "On" or "Off" Pod HD Pro

    There is an issue with the MIDI implementation on the pro that you may be running into.

     

    It seems that the de facto standard for MIDI switching is that a CC with a value of 0-63 then the effect is switched off whereas a value of 64-127 means that the effect is switched on.  However the implementation on the POD is that, whichever message you send, the pod flips the switch over to its opposite state (i.e. off becomes on or vice versa).

     

    If your Midimate is sending the initial midi CC along with the patch change then yes, I would expect for the effect to be flipped on when you select the patch.  The workaround would appear to be to save the patch with the effect turned on and then the initial Midi patch change/cc would result in the patch being loaded with the effect turned off.


    Does that make sense?

    • RipperShred Just Startin'
      RipperShred
      82 posts since
      Jul 26, 2009
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      Jul 13, 2012 6:56 PM (in response to jimsreynolds)
      Re: Midi Controller message defaults to "On" for effect, regardless if the that controller is set to "On" or "Off" Pod HD Pro

      Not only does it make sense, but that's what I'm trying to say; Whether the CC is set to ON of OFF, the effect is turned ON. Even when I save the patch on the POD HD PRO to set the effect off, it gets turned back on when I select the patch. I can select the patch over and over again, and the effect(s) don't toggle on and off, whatever is off is switched to on and stays on, and whatever was on stays on. What's worse is it doesn't seem to matter if I have the CC set to ON of OFF it still switches the effects on. It's messed up!

      • jimsreynolds Power User
        jimsreynolds
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        Jul 14, 2012 1:17 AM (in response to RipperShred)
        Re: Midi Controller message defaults to "On" for effect, regardless if the that controller is set to "On" or "Off" Pod HD Pro

        Hmm ... that is a little different from what people have reported before, if I understand it.  To be clear for me:  are you saying that even after you have selected the preset on the Midimate, that the footswitch that you assigned to toggle the harmoniser on/off does not do anything?

         

        Going through the general setup as a sanity check ...

         

        For this example: lets say that you have a patch saved as patch 1A on the first setlist and it contains your harmoniser.  The setup would be:

         

        1)  Assign the Harmoniser to a 'footswitch' on the Pod (let's say F5).   You always have to toggle effects on/off via a footswitch:  you do not have direct access to any effect.  You do this on the 'controllers' screen in HD Edit or via button-pressing on the Pod itself.

         

        2)  Setup the Midimate Patch to send out a send any value to CC #55 (i.e. to footswitch F5)  when you hit a specific pedal within theMidimate patch. Can't say how this is specifically done but the manual is here --> http://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/5070-MIDI-Mate%20Rocktron%20manual.pdf 

         

        I take it you have seen the full MIDI implementation in the HD Pro advanced manual (appendix C).

        • RipperShred Just Startin'
          RipperShred
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          Jul 14, 2012 7:51 AM (in response to jimsreynolds)
          Re: Midi Controller message defaults to "On" for effect, regardless if the that controller is set to "On" or "Off" Pod HD Pro

          It's not that it will do nothing, because once the patch is selected, I can toggle the effect(s) on and off via the assigned midi CC once the preset is loaded on the HD Pro. It's that the HD Pro thinks EVERYTHING should be ON when it recieves a preset command, regardless of whether the included CCs are set to ON of OFF in that preset. It's the darndest thing. I don't have that problem on the Rocktron prophesy, vooduvalve, or my Digitech GSP1101, but the Pod HD Pro is interpreting it as described.

          • jimsreynolds Power User
            jimsreynolds
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            Jul 14, 2012 1:16 PM (in response to RipperShred)
            Re: Midi Controller message defaults to "On" for effect, regardless if the that controller is set to "On" or "Off" Pod HD Pro

            Page 14 of the PDF Manual for the Midimate says :

             

            "The status of the parameter that is being turned on/off by the MlDI

            Mate™ is stored by the MlDI Mate™ also, thereby sending the correct MIDI

            control change command (on or off) when the program is changed. For every

            button assigned to a control number, a control change will be sent every time

            the preset is changed. For example, if buttons 5, 6, 7 and 8 are set to control

            numbers 11, 12, 13 and 14 respectively, every time a program change is

            made four MIDI control change commands (control changes 11,12,13,14)

            would be sent on the corresponding MIDI channels."

             

            This assumes you are in 'Controller Access Mode' which I guess you are.  If so, this means that the Midi CC toggles get sent to the HD Pro and given the behaviour I described earlier means that the effects will get toggled on

             

            I would expect that the fix is to save the HD patch with the effects turned on.  In that way, the effects would be turned off when it receives the patch select message and accompanying CCs.  Will that work?

            • RipperShred Just Startin'
              RipperShred
              82 posts since
              Jul 26, 2009
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              Jul 14, 2012 9:29 PM (in response to jimsreynolds)
              Re: Midi Controller message defaults to "On" for effect, regardless if the that controller is set to "On" or "Off" Pod HD Pro

              Ya, I already tried saving the patch with the effects saved as "on" and "off", and regardless they end up being either staying on, or switching on.  and I doubled checked to make sure I don't have any of the button's set to the same CC number i.e. switch 5 with a value of 51 and 6 with a value of 51 (tripping it twice) etc.

               

               

              It's deffinitely the weirdest MIDI behavior I've seen.

              • jimsreynolds Power User
                jimsreynolds
                2,227 posts since
                Jun 27, 43450
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                Jul 15, 2012 1:06 AM (in response to RipperShred)
                Re: Midi Controller message defaults to "On" for effect, regardless if the that controller is set to "On" or "Off" Pod HD Pro

                It is a weirdy alright.  However, the board is not littered with outraged Pod Pro owners saying that they cannot get their Midi to work right so I am guessing that the problem is specific to the Pro and the Midimate combination.  I was trying to find something in the Midimate manual that allows you to supress those additional CC controller messages being sent along with the Patch change message but I could not see anything, other than to change to one of the other control modes.

                 

                If you really want to see what is being sent to the POD you could try MidiOX.  This is a Midi 'smiffer' and should allow you to see the specific Midi messages being sent to the POD by the Midimate.   You need a Midi Interface connected to your PC as you cannot sniff via USB on the POD HD500  http://midiox.com/

                • RipperShred Just Startin'
                  RipperShred
                  82 posts since
                  Jul 26, 2009
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Jul 15, 2012 6:35 PM (in response to jimsreynolds)
                  Re: Midi Controller message defaults to "On" for effect, regardless if the that controller is set to "On" or "Off" Pod HD Pro

                  I have it figured out; it has to do with the hidden midi assignment menu that you reach by holding down the move button. Apparently every assignable footswitch has 4 parameters, the first being the midi channel, the second the corresponding value of a given footswitch (51 for FS4, for instance)  and the last being midi value of either 00 or 127, and having that final value correctly set for a particular footswitch dictates the behaviors I've described above. Without going into that menu and manually assigning the midi-channel and making sure that final value is 00, it seems to default to the 127 and assumes whatever CC message is being recieved means "ON". Weird and a serious pain in the arse.
                  It makes programing per patch a bit more complicated than I'd like, but the extra time is deffinitely worth not going out and spending a few hundred on a new midi controller. And hey, should any other midimate owners run into this problem, well, there you go!

  • Nesheim Just Startin'
    Nesheim
    8 posts since
    Aug 10, 2009
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    Jul 29, 2012 10:01 AM (in response to RipperShred)
    Re: Midi Controller message defaults to "On" for effect, regardless if the that controller is set to "On" or "Off" Pod HD Pro

    I'm having the same problem with my CAE Rs-10, and I find no way to fix it. Line6 needs to address this fast.

    They can't expect the makers of footcontrollers to adapt. The have to adapt to standard beavoir cc less than 64 off and more on. I just bought two DT-25 heads with cabs and an Pod Hd Pro, sounds amazing but this problems make it hard to use.

    • RipperShred Just Startin'
      RipperShred
      82 posts since
      Jul 26, 2009
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jul 30, 2012 8:04 AM (in response to Nesheim)
      Re: Midi Controller message defaults to "On" for effect, regardless if the that controller is set to "On" or "Off" Pod HD Pro

      Well, what I described in my last post fixed the problem... for the most part. Additionally, once you set midi value for the controller to either 00 or 127 (it should be that value for all controllers. I have found if I set the value different for even just one controller, it goes back to everything being "on" again) you have to save the patch backwords; whatever effect you want to default to on must be saved as off in the patch, and vice versa. Then when you select the patch via your midi controller, whatever CCs you've got to on will trigger to on, and whatever's off will trigger to off.

       

      Even reading what I just wrote it's still confusing as heck. Hopefully this helps you somehow.

       

      It is a royal pain in the arse, completely counter-intuitive, but it's a fix until line 6 fix their midi implementation.

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