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  • spikey Just Startin' 378 posts since
    Feb 1, 2007

    RipperShred wrote:

     

    I own an HD Pro, and while i get the whole Skwisgar-ian "this ams the mosts expensivists so it's gots to be the mosts awesomists unit" angle, I saw it in a different light; I saw it as "line6 saying thank you for not pawning your 300/400s"

     

     

    That's the only bad business I can see happening; not communicating better with the established user base.

     

    Its nice to see that Line 6 is taking care of everyone. That part I appreciate as well as the next guy. And in order to keep the multitudes from pawning their units and/or giving Line 6 another black eye for not taking care of their customers in a time-ly matter and losing others from buying the cheaper Pods, they put their grocery bags back on their table and gave the 3/400 owners their long overdue update. I "get" all of that too. What I dont get is how can these units be programmed and designed so different, in that it takes "weeks" if not months, to create totally different sets of software updates for them? 2 seperate products i agree with Paul seems to be the case here, yet how can that be??? And WHY in the world would that be? For instance- and in no particular order here and using the KISS technic..., 

     

    They used the same basic written code format (give or take) for each unit didnt they? The units "look" alike in many ways, and were made by the same hardware folks i assume, and didnt the dev's live, eat, and slept in the same building?. They did talk to each other one would assume ?... They used for the most part the same hardware (buttons knobs and jacks) on the outside of the boxes. I use the same arguments about going back to the moon... I mean if we already went once like we are lead to believe, why will it take 10 + years of preparing and designing to go back??? Did these same Line 6 engineers do this too? 

  • RipperShred Just Startin' 82 posts since
    Jul 26, 2009

    I think they designed them differently because they were affraid some crafty guitarist/hacker would crack a 300/400 and get a 500 for half the cost. Frankly, I think they shot themselves in the foot there, because it's my experience that most guitarists aren't that tech-savy. It's like DRM (anti piracy software) built-in to the unit.  But if I had to think of a reason that would be it; if a 300 was basically a 500 with fewer buttons and some software-locked features, then they would be worried that someone would crack it and unlock the software-locks, and the majority of the public would just buy the cheaper 300 and learn to live with a few less footswitches since that would be the only difference.

     

    Upside is if they made different hardware with also different software they have virtually eliminated the possibility of people "pirating" a 500 level processor out of a 300. Downside is they have to program for at least 3 different platforms. I'm guessing the cost and time they need to develop for all these seperate units is offset by hard-to-crack units; people buy what they need/can afford, as opposed to the cheapest and crack it.

     

    This is of course just a theory of mine, but if they have an alterior one to what I've proposed here, I'd like to hear it because I can't see another reason for making so much more work for themselves and agitaiton for their customers.

  • DeanDinosaur Iknowathingortwo 443 posts since
    Jul 30, 2009

    I initially thought it was the same processor/hardware etc but the 300/400 still don't have input impedence afer the latest update!  I thinking cracking will be an issue once POD FARM HD is released. AT some point they will release models packs and cracking would be relevant to those but ouside of personal computers and MACS,craking  doesn't seem to be an issue! Iphones and androids have thousands of paid apps and I don't think the users will trust or use cracked apps on their phones, so I doubt that guitar players would ever trust using a crack if it should ever exist on their RP500 or 300/400 to crack a model pack.

  • jimsreynolds Power User 2,227 posts since
    Jun 27, 43450

    Nah, it won't be the same architecture internally across the models.  Otherwise, why the staggering of firmware release dates? 

     

    They would have built the original firmware for v2.0 (HD500+ version) and then there would have been a meeting (Title:  "what do we give the 400 users") that went along the lines of ...

     

    "Do they get the Plexi ....?"

        

         "Hmmm ..... yeah, ok"

     

    "... Cab Deps ..."

     

         "eeeeh .....  Nah."

     

    etc.  Then a hash table in the firmware would have flags that enabled/disabled the features and that would have been that.  Simples. 

     

    Different hardware.

  • phil_m Expert Line 6 User 4,243 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007

    I don't think Line 6 is that concerned about anyone cracking a POD like that. I think they released three floor based models to simply give people options at different price points, and to have direct competition to the lower-priced options from Vox and Boss. In the retail world, there is often overlap between a company's product offerings.  Why are there currently three or four different versions of Bud Light on the market with on slight differences in taste (if any) and cost. It's so Budweiser can fill large portions of the shelves in supermarkets and convenience stores with their products. They don't care what version the customer buys as long as they're buying one of their products.

     

    The music world isn't quite the same, but there is some similarity. It's why Fender and Gibson have so much overlap between their guitar offerings.

  • RipperShred Just Startin' 82 posts since
    Jul 26, 2009

    Then why does it take weeks/months to get updates out? Why are they so staggeringly staggered? Obviously it's not for the enjoyment of the community, because the majority go apesh*t over the waiting. They've got to have a different hardware/software setup for the different teirs, because if they don't, well, then they're just a bunch of d*cks for making people wait unnecessarily. Are you calling Line 6 a bunch of d*cks Phil? lol

  • Mr_Arkadin Expert Line 6 User 2,379 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007

    phil_m wasn't saying that they aren't different hardware/software, no need to get your knickers in a twist. Crikey, overreaction much?

  • phil_m Expert Line 6 User 4,243 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007

    I'm not sure how you got that I was saying anything negative about Line 6 from that...

     

    The system architecture of the 300 and 400 is pretty different than the rest of the HD line, and I believe that the development of the firmware for these units is done a bit differently from the others. It's not simply a matter of developing a model and plugging it into the firmware. As far as I know, each platform requires some unique coding. I don't think the reason for this has anything to do with Line 6 being worried about people "cracking" the devices though.

  • MDrum08 Just Startin' 3 posts since
    Aug 2, 2008

    My experience with and perspective on the HD400 and HD500 mirrors yours, Jim. Well said!

  • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
    Dec 13, 2007

    I would assume that is correct - while the basic signal processing algorithms need to produce identical output, they must be differentiated to do so for different architectures, in how they manage reading/writing to cache and other memory, and be able to do so in real-time given different DSP resources.

     

    These differentiations may seem simple, but these are complex programs, and a seemingly-inoccuous change must be tested thoroughly to ensure no unexpected and possibly detrimental bugs are present, such as causing the device to reboot, or delete all patches, etc.

  • RipperShred Just Startin' 82 posts since
    Jul 26, 2009

    You guys have been on this forum too long; you've lost the subtle ability to discern sarcasm and humour - note the LOL at the end of my d*cks comment. Grow a big hairy pair... of laughing muscles why doncha, you bunch of sour pusses.

  • RipperShred Just Startin' 82 posts since
    Jul 26, 2009

    Back to the hardware differences; if they weren't worried about pirates, then such differing firmware software/hardware? Why not just put a 500 in a 300 encloser and software lock what they don't want people to use? I doubt if you gutted a 300 and a 500 they would extrememly different in manufacturing costs due to composition; I'm sure I'll be corrected quickly if I'm wrong, but I presume they're not made in the US of A, so manufacturing cost differentials probably aren't that significant. I'm tellin' ya; they didn't want anyone muckin' about in their floorboards, so they made it virtually impossible to crack the units for significantly more functionality.

     

    They don't trust the userbase not to pirate/crack their hardware if they had one unified architecture. Plain and simple, anything software based can and will be cracked, so they went hardware/software variants. You want unilateral firmware releases, then fix the depravity of the human soul, and Line 6 won't have to build in anti-pirate measures into their hardware.

  • Mr_Arkadin Expert Line 6 User 2,379 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007

    First of all you are way off base thinking Line 6 are bothered about hacking of hardware as their first consideration when creating a product.

     

    Second you have a lot to learn about humour if you think what you said is in any way witty or subtle.

  • DeanDinosaur Iknowathingortwo 443 posts since
    Jul 30, 2009

    SInce everyone is guessing here, my guess is the consdieration about piracy played Zero roll in the design of 300/400/500. The most consideration was given to making available to the masses (the biggest target market possible), a cost effective solution to adopt the new HD modeling. Knob count, spdif connection, input impedence capability etc. were the primary factors in the decision to make the HD300 the entry level unit. At the price of the HD300, it must have been decided that to keep the price down you must have different hardware enough to cause the staggering updates situation. Of course they can't satisfy everyone, but the majority of those who buy the HD300 are very appreciative of having access to this advancement in modeling at this basement price.

     

    It's not just a matter of marketing, it's also about sound and feel. There's simply no competition at the price range of any of the HD series models. the only problemetic competition is from the HD models amongst themselves. I intially bought the HD300 knowing very well that to get this kind of modeling and feel, I would have to buy ELeven or AXE at more than double or triple the price!! I've tried and researched almost evertything outthere and couldn't find anything remotely close at the price. Furthermore, at this price range, simply there are zero updates from all other companies. Many line 6 users are aware of this and are very appreciative.  few users complain and that's expected because it's impossible to satisfy everyone.  Also at these prices, cracking is the furthest thing from anyone's mind. Even at $100 model packs, I highly doubt that a sane person would consider running a crack even if it existed and risk damaging the hardware! Cracking is completely irrelevant to this subject in my opinion, because people have already bought the hardware/sofware package what's there to crack. When we get to AMP Farm HD , that can be a consideration, still at the prices that line 6 sell their software, i doubt that a serious guitarist/hobyis would even bother with cracks to use in their HDs even if it somehow did exist! Who's cracking their multifx?I haven't heard of cracks being a problem for Digitech prodcuts, Line 6 products, VOX, Eleven and when you use these hardware units with your PC or MAC they already provide the most sofisticated dongle there is that would mitigate 99% of cracks concern!

  • RipperShred Just Startin' 82 posts since
    Jul 26, 2009

    I'd rather think they were worried about protecting their product line than think they're idiots who have no forethought as to the additional time/manpower/money it would take to support multiple differing architectures. They've been in the game a long time, so these things don't happen by accident. the R&D don't come up with different hardware/software by slipping on the toilet and hitting their head on the porcelain.

     

    As for an education in humour, well, my comment obviously went over better than I'd thought; Witty wasn't a word I'd have used, but I'll take it, And subtle? most deffinitely, because I've no less than 3, count'em, THREE  line 6 "experts" waggin' their digital fingers of disapproval/misunderstanding.

     

    I'm not looking for a fight, just puttin' in my two cents. Geesh, again, try to remember this is a product forum - not the real world - so lighten up, put on some pants for a change, and get out of your parents' basement and get some sunshine and much needed real-world perspective. Don't act like I called your mom ugly, or I knocked your icecream out of your hand.

     

    It's JUST A FORUM. DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY. WIPE AWAY THE TEARS, TAKE THE DIAPER OFF, AND JOIN CROWN-UP LAND AGAIN.

     

    The last thing I need is to go to war with with internet warriors over their spilt-milk/hurt feelings.

     

    Well, mission accomplished, you've managed to aggrivate me enough into a rant. Sweet Jebus, what the H*ll is wrong with people today? .... Some people's chidlren, I tells ya.

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