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802 Views 27 Replies Latest reply: Nov 1, 2012 5:47 AM by hurghanico RSS
hansvaneven Just Startin'
hansvaneven
372 posts since
Jan 31, 2007
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Oct 22, 2012 12:29 PM

Input sources question

Hi guys,

 

I've been going from - Input 1 = guitar (+ input 2 = variax) and Input 1 = guitar (+ input 2 = guitar or same) and wonder what's really best, sure with the second setting you have less noise, but also fewer gain on amps, it seems that I seem to prefer to have both inputs with the same guitar setting, how about you ?

 

thanks,

 

Hans

  • DeanDinosaur Iknowathingortwo
    DeanDinosaur
    443 posts since
    Jul 30, 2009
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    Oct 22, 2012 2:32 PM (in response to hansvaneven)
    Re: Input sources question

    For most of my High gain patches I use Input 1 guitar and 2 Variax,  it seems clearer. But for clean and inbetween sound I notice that using guitar or same for both input 1 and 2 I get a fuller sound. I think it's a matter of taste but it can be logically explained though. When you choose input one and two to be guitar, your adding some very low level hiss and that can have a soothing effect even in some mastered recordings. In general I don't have a rule, I will try both or most options but I've settled on the above rule of thumb because it seems that I always end up with variax for 2 in high gain and same for clean and in between. One of my pathces has Mic for input two and it works best for that patch. I don't like going through all the option in every patch but it surprises me that most options have a slight variation in the sound even AUX+GUitar+variax. It must be a different algorithm for each input setting but even Aux+Guitar+variax can give very good results for certain patches..

  • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo
    meambobbo
    1,702 posts since
    Dec 13, 2007
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    Oct 22, 2012 2:50 PM (in response to hansvaneven)
    Re: Input sources question

    i think it's about time for some serious analysis on this to finally put it to bed...

     

    hurghanico has spent significant time on it.  i tested like 3-4 of my patches and seemed to universally prefer input 1 guitar input 2 variax, so i use that for almost all of my patches.  but what makes the difference?  hard to tell.

     

    the one patch that had a very obvious difference had a Screamer in it.  Early on I noticed that even at 0% Drive, the Screamer still produced clipping, given my pickups.  I was using Input 2: Same at the time.  So the big difference in sound is perhaps just that I'm getting more distortion from the Screamer with Input 2: Same.  A slightly distorted signal into a distorted amp model is definitely going to give you a different tone than a clean signal into a distorted amp, even if you try to compensate on the amp model drive.

     

    I also tested a patch where there was nothing in front of the path split; however, and found I prefered Input 2 Variax.  Maybe I missed something.  I thought that the doubling process (Input 2 Guitar/Same) added a very small amount of latency, causing a slight out of phase effect on certain frequencies.  But someone did a test where they recorded the signals separately and reversed the phase on one and got perfect cancellation...

     

    So i'm going to test inverting phase on some white noise and see what happens.  Also going to test the patch that changed my opinion on the whole thing, using a volume effect to attenuate the level before the Screamer so it's the same level with Input 2 Same and see if the tone ends up the same.

    • hansvaneven Just Startin'
      hansvaneven
      372 posts since
      Jan 31, 2007
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      Oct 23, 2012 12:56 AM (in response to meambobbo)
      Re: Input sources question

      Thanks guys, interesting, personally I found the high gain amps to not have enough sustain using just one "input 1 guitar" and "input 2 variax",maybe it's just me, but switching those to "input 1 guitar" and "input 2 same" gave me the missing sustain, another solution is to put a small compressor pedal in front of an amp to give that little extra sustain and drive of an amp and a little closer to that compressed tube feel. It's all a little but confusing in HD500 imho, and some word from L6 on this would be great.

       

      @ hurghanico @ Thanks for the link and information, but I hope you don't take me for an idiot, as I didn't understand all the info, so if you're talking about a mono block, you mean a pedal like a tube screamer in front of an amp right ? While putting this pedal in the splitted signal is true stereo ? The problem I see with the HD, is that you easily run out of DSP doing two separate signals for each amp, working with two different amps at once.

       

      thanks,

       

      Hans

      • hurghanico Just Startin'
        hurghanico
        399 posts since
        Jan 28, 2007
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        Oct 24, 2012 3:11 AM (in response to hansvaneven)
        Re: Input sources question

        hansvaneven ha scritto:

         

        ....personally I found the high gain amps to not have enough sustain using just one "input 1 guitar" and "input 2 variax",maybe it's just me, but switching those to "input 1 guitar" and "input 2 same" gave me the missing sustain....

        the lack of sustain in the factory presets may be due to the noise gate threshold setting, originally calibrated having both input sources active.. it must be lessened if you change to 1 only active input source..

        ...so if you're talking about a mono block, you mean a pedal like a tube screamer in front of an amp right ? While putting this pedal in the splitted signal is true stereo ?..

        by "mono block" I mean a mono fx or an amp.. every fx or amp retain its charateristics (mono or stereo) regardless of its position

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

         

        anyway at the end it's a matter of personal taste about which input settings works the best way..

         

        I deleted my previous post because I'm not more convinced of what I had written there..

         

        the reasoning leads me on one side, the listening sometimes leads me on the opposite side..

        and I elaborate theories which attempt to reconcile mind with hearing

         

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        my (hopefully final) theory in short is:

         

        (based on a objective fact that I clearly perceive with my ears, and of which I am absolutely sure)

         

        the objective fact:

        putting everything (amp and fx) in path A gives the same results that would be achieved by putting everything in pre-position with input1source = input2source..

         

        my reasoning:

        now, knowing (from the manual) that putting everything in path A the only signal that we can get is from input1source, and taken for granted the equality described above (the objective fact), what is more logical to think?..

         

        ...that when we put everything in pre-position, of input1source arrives only L (half signal) and of input2source arrives only R (half signal), so if the 2  input sources belong to the same instrument, we get the entire original signal .. which, in this case, in fact, results to be the same as that obtained above in path A..

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

         

        so at the end of the (sorry, a bit long) story, my personal answer to this thread topic is:

        the HD500 sometimes works better with halved signals, and other times with full signals..

         

        ..a choice that you have only in pre-position (playing with the input source settings), because in "path A only" configurations you can get only full signals from input1source, being input2source setting absolutely irrelevant in this case..

        • hansvaneven Just Startin'
          hansvaneven
          372 posts since
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          Oct 25, 2012 12:30 AM (in response to hurghanico)
          Re: Input sources question

          Thanks for the details hurghanico I think it's all a matter of ears, but strange that there isn't much official infon on this from L6 ...

           

          best,

           

          Hans

          • hurghanico Just Startin'
            hurghanico
            399 posts since
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            Oct 25, 2012 5:15 AM (in response to hansvaneven)
            Re: Input sources question

            You're welcome!

            hansvaneven ha scritto:

             

            ....strange that there isn't much official infon on this from L6 ...

            in my opinion the manuals of previous modelers (POD 2.0, XT) were made better and were particularly more detailed ..


            today, we have a more "detailed" modeling acompanied by a more vague and confusing information ..


            the factors have been reversed


            certainly the advantage of having a better sound is priceless, even at the cost of poor information

          • CairnsFella Just Startin'
            CairnsFella
            205 posts since
            Sep 16, 2012
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            Oct 26, 2012 6:04 PM (in response to hansvaneven)
            Re: Input sources question

            hansvaneven wrote:

             

            " but strange that there isn't much official infon on this from L6 ..."

             

             

            I second this opinion. Seems downright strange that there is no specific instruction provided. From my - admittedly limited - experience, the differences vary from patch to patch. However, given that in some cases the effect is significant, one would surely feel that Line 6 knows there to be a right and a wrong way. I know there is subjectivity to how one perceives the quality of sound and desired results, but the fact that the actual sound produced through the modeling and fx process differs due to input selection must suggest that one of the variations is not the sound explicitly intended by the designers (regardless whether of wether or not the user prefers one setting to the other).

             

            I for one cannot see how the product could have been bench tested if there were no instructions as to how the unit should be set. If there were no such direction then two testers may be hearing two different sounds when testing the same patch rendering any feedback pretty much useless.

             

            Note: I should point out that as I use the HD, and having, in the main, settled for the guitar / aux approach, I get used to these options, and the occasional need to try out the alternative. So I am ultimately happy with the results. But it doesnt mean I think this situation is excusable.

            • phil_m Expert Line 6 User
              phil_m
              4,243 posts since
              Jan 25, 2007
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              Oct 26, 2012 6:32 PM (in response to CairnsFella)
              Re: Input sources question

              I think people are overstating the severity of this "problem". For one thing that output of guitar pickups varies greatly, and that probably has way more effect on how the effects and amp models will react than whether or not someone uses the "Same" setting or something else for Input 2.

               

              It's also not as if the manual says nothing about this. The Advanced Guide mentions it in a few different places:

               

               

              From 2.4

               

              Input 1 and Input 2 Source (Knobs 1 & 2) - Select the physical input(s) that you want to be the “source” fed into the signal path. Note that you can choose different Sources to independently feed each signal path, or choose Same to feed a common Source into both paths.

              From 3.6

               

              Model Types and Mono/Stereo Signal Routing

              It is important to note that some Models (all EQs, Wahs & Volume, and some Modulations, Filters, Pitches and Delays, as well as the FX Loop) preserve a stereo output within the signal chain, while others (all Dynamics, Distortions, all Amps & Preamps, and other various Models) are mono FX and do not. The POD HD500 Inputs 1 & 2 are fed into the signal chain as stereo (see “Page 3, Setup: Input Options” on page 2•4). Therefore, wherever a mono FX or Amp Model is inserted, the Left & Right channels of this stereo signal is “mono-ized” and heard as a two-channel mono signal at the Model’s output. To follow are a few examples:

               

              From 3.7

               

              The above rules also apply within each of the parallel Paths A and B, since these are each stereo signal paths as well. The Mixer Block offers Pan controls to independently adjust the stereo balance of each of these Paths before they are fed into the first “Post” FX (or Amp Block, if the Amp is placed here), immediately following the Mixer.

               

              As far as testing a product like this, what I would say is that beta testing has less to do with testing the sonic qualities of the models and more to do with the functionality of the product. Beta testers will all be using diffrent types of guitars anyway, so there's not going to be one sonic baseline. Since Line 6 is mostly creating effects that are modeled after vintage stompboxes, the fidelity of the model is really something that should be pretty established before the unit ever undergoes beta testing.

              • CairnsFella Just Startin'
                CairnsFella
                205 posts since
                Sep 16, 2012
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                Oct 26, 2012 10:55 PM (in response to phil_m)
                Re: Input sources question

                Phil,

                 

                A couple of responses to your response to my response if I may.

                 

                First, with regards 'overstating the severity'. I am pretty sure that I pointed out that ultimately I am happy with the results I get. In that context, the 'severity' I allude to is one of line 6 providing enough clarity in this regard. I appreciatte your points, but I stand by mine (partly down to my further responses below).

                 

                In your first example you quote the manual which does indeed say that you "can choose different Sources". Now it may be my senility, generall stupity, or just becuase I may never get it, but for my money it still does not clearly advise (or even give guidance toward) where, for example, "guitar / same" should be used as opposed to an alternate setting such as "guitar / aux" beyond the paths taken. From what I understand - which perhaps is not a great deal, it is not this 'routing' that causes the concerns, but the the effect on the signal strength, and the knock on effect of this. This latter point does not seem to be covered to my knowledge.

                 

                I will make a not entirely begrudging concession here. Logically, one would assume "same" is used where the input is the same. BUT, my finding - as appears to have been the case with many others - is that this does not sound best for many patches, including default presets.

                 

                I would not suggest any particularly scientific conclusions from these simple facts. However I would contest that either "same" doesnt actually work in the intended manner, OR there needs to be explanation further to that provided and quoted by yourself.

                 

                Additionally, I fully accept that the guitar (and indeed the output hardware) will effect the tone significantly. As a result you will note that I do not hold Line 6 in any way responsible for these variations, and only comment on the variation that may occur within the product they have created.

                 

                Finally. I probably worded my comments regarding testers very lazily, and not a little inaccurately (having been involved in software test cycles some years ago, I should know better). That said my experiences were worlds apart from this type of product. Without, therefore knowing the correct terminolgy or personel, I merely meant to suggest my feeling that there must be people involved in testing the actual sound of the unit. I guess it is possible that this is just down to one team, and as such they probably all know what settings they are using. That said I'd be suprised if the sound itself were not tested by further groups and individuals for feedback before sign-off, and it is that scenario I had intended to reference.

                 

                I would add again, however, that despite the length of my post, I am really not saying this is a big insurmountable problem. In fact, as much as the benifits outweigh the problems inwhat is unquestionably, on balance, a fantastic peice of kit, there are problems in my opinion, and others bigger than this.

                • phil_m Expert Line 6 User
                  phil_m
                  4,243 posts since
                  Jan 25, 2007
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Oct 27, 2012 8:04 AM (in response to CairnsFella)
                  Re: Input sources question

                  I probably should have worded my statement a little different. I am not blaming anyone for discussing these settings in depth or asking Line 6 for more information. When I said "I think people are overstating the severity of this "problem"", I probably should have said something like, most users will probably be OK with the information that Line 6 has given them. Depending on the pickups used, the differences in these input settings can be relatively unnoticeable to pretty drastic.

                   

                  I think it's inherently difficult to write a manual for a product that has as many options and settings as the HD500. You don't want to scare people away from the product by telling them too much, but at the same time, many users are technically savvy, and this extra info would be appreciated. In a sense, that is what the forums provide. They at least give an outlet to delve in a bit deeper into these things. Speaking for myself, I appreciate all the time and effort users like you put into their posts because it ends up helping a lot of others. I think Line 6 would say something similar.

                  • CairnsFella Just Startin'
                    CairnsFella
                    205 posts since
                    Sep 16, 2012
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                    Oct 27, 2012 9:10 PM (in response to phil_m)
                    Re: Input sources question

                    Phil,

                     

                    Appreciate that you have taken time to clarify the context of your comments.

                     

                    I think we will be agreeing to disagree in the end though. I mean I agree a manual for such a beast may well be difficult, but is that really an excuse for leaving out an issue so fundamental.

                     

                    I am also eternally grateful for the information I can find on these forums, but 'tips and tricks' should really be where the line is drawn for anticipated user input. Contributors should not be relied upon to clarify basic (well.... basic for an HD anyway) operational requirements. And ultimately, there is still - to my knowledge - no unanimous consensus on this topic. So yes, the input has been great, I have taken on board opinions, it has prompted me to experiment and find what I am happiest with. But does any of these mean that L6 could not say what is recomended?

                     

                    I am not sure if you have seen, but I have noticed posters who have been using their POD with one setting for some time only to stumble across these discussions and realise that by changing the settings their sound has improved. One could argue that these very people were previously "OK with the information that Line 6 has given them." but it is also clear that they could also benefit from additional information.

                     

                    Maybe I am not even understanding the problem in the same way as others that have raised related concerns, as I really dont think I am asking for anything particularly weird and wonderful. I mean at the end of the day all I want to know is, if I had exactly the same gear that L6 uses at L6 HQ, what setting do they use in a few example scenarios / patches so that I could sound exactly the same as they would expect. Yes, some technical  background would be nice (I'm sure there are at least a few that would like definitive comment on the gain characteristics, phasing etc), and I realise that any suggestion by them that one setting should be used over another, would likely receive comments stating the opposite was found to be preferable. But at least we'd have more of an official starting point.

                     

                    Anyway, I respect your point of view, but I stand by mine in this instance. Then again, I dont think any extra information will be forthcoming so I am really flogging a dead horse here, as I rather jumped on the subject when it was raised as it is a bit of a pet peeve.

                     

                    Ultimately I am happy with the sound I am getting. I just wish I couuld say that I was happy with my actual playing ability

                  • hurghanico Just Startin'
                    hurghanico
                    399 posts since
                    Jan 28, 2007
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                    Oct 30, 2012 11:32 AM (in response to phil_m)
                    Re: Input sources question

                    phil_m ha scritto:

                     

                    .....You don't want to scare people away from the product by telling them too much, but at the same time, many users are technically savvy, and this extra info would be appreciated....

                    As we know many of those who have chosen the top units of the HD series knew from before that it would be more difficult to learn to use them, but in exchange of higher performance ..


                    Those who have chosen the little brothers (300/400) did so for two reasons: lower cost and less complexity of use ..


                    I don't think that me as other owners of the top units we could scare if we were aware of every detail of the possible settings .. rather we would be very happy and grateful! ..


                    I gather that the problem of possibly scare someone relate therefore to potential new buyers, and then at the end these unnecessary secrets are due only to a mere matter of marketing ..


                    and therefore the ignorance of some information continues to reign supreme and people write thousands of words in the forums to try to understand or to explain the various things unsaid ..


                    Are years that I use products from Line6, I love my HD500 and luckily I can understand, even by myself, some mysterious things, but although I understand that Line6 wants to sell as much as possible,                     I just can not seem to find a valid justification for this policy of secrets ..

                     

                    phil_m ha scritto:

                     

                    ....this extra info would be appreciated. In a sense, that is what the forums provide...

                    the forums provide opinions, different points of view, tips, some extra info, but can't provide the missing (extra?) official info.. at best can forward hypotheses, to which you can choose to believe or not..

                     

                    would be much appreciated also have some certainties..

        • hurghanico Just Startin'
          hurghanico
          399 posts since
          Jan 28, 2007
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          Oct 27, 2012 6:05 AM (in response to hurghanico)
          Re: Input sources question

          I would add a consideration on this issue:

          if you are a demonstrator of a product, of course you try to give the public the best possible proof of the quality and possibilities of what you're selling, right?

          regard to HD500 we know that the greatest demonstrator of this product is Sean Halley, which is part of the           Line6 staff, is a good guitarist and knows very well the HD500 ..

          probably many of you have already seen his videos on the Line6 site or on Youtube ..

          Have you ever tried to download his patches?

           

          can be found here: http://line6.com/customtone/profile/seanhalley

          there is not one of those patches which use only 1 amp in pre-position that has not input2source = same

          why? ..

          if you try to download the corresponding patches of other           Line6 demos: http://line6.com/customtone/profile/line6 the speech does not change

          why? ..

          will not be that maybe that specific setting is considered the standard?.. even if it is not clearly written in the manual?

          • spikey Just Startin'
            spikey
            378 posts since
            Feb 1, 2007
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            Oct 27, 2012 8:16 AM (in response to hurghanico)
            Re: Input sources question

            I'll add one minor thing that irks me...

             

            If I set input 1 to Variax, and input 2 to guitar (or swap this) and then use my strat into "guitar in" and the Variax JTV69 into the Variax port, depending on what I have setup for input 1, the tuner WILL NOT WORK for the other.

             

            Now they are BOTH inputs, are they not???

             

            I dunno, but Ive been playing out for many many years and having 2 guitars on stage is a comforting thing, if not required. To not be able to use the tuner "on the fly" for both guitars when setup this way (input1 = guitar and input 2 = Variax ( (or swapped) ) is just an overly engineered and asinine idea in my opinion. Yes yes I can change their inputs on stage during a set, hell I could just stop playing with the band and start programming a whole new user bank too, but thats not the point is it.... Well?  Right Now Im using for input 1, Guitar and Variax, and for input 2, Variax. It works. I guess I should be thankful... Now then, the 64 dollar question..., is this setup for using both guitars the optimal one I should be using for the best tone? Who the hell knows... And Why is that?  Because the unity gain of the units signal path seems to change the overall tone of the patches when it changes, depending on the what these input settings are. Thats why...  In other words lots of options are great when they all work together. When they dont it makes me bitchy... Well more bitchy than usual

            • hurghanico Just Startin'
              hurghanico
              399 posts since
              Jan 28, 2007
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              Oct 27, 2012 12:30 PM (in response to spikey)
              Re: Input sources question

              in my opinion one of the worst things of the HD500 is its tuner, is not very reliable and works only on input1 .. (another thing I hate is the lack of a power button, but that's another story) ..
              I strongly recommend this tuner: http://www.korg.com/aw2 (or something similar, but always piezo) for both guitars, you will not regret .. is the best solution in absolute ..

              spikey ha scritto:

               

              .... Right Now Im using for input 1, Guitar and Variax, and for input 2, Variax. It works. Now then, the 64 dollar question is this setup for using both guitars the optimal one I should be using for best tone? Who the hell knows...

              I think it's a possible good setup ..
              just keep in mind that if you put something mono in pre-position, the signals of the 2 guitars will be halved, therefore driving the amp models and fx with less strength, but this is not necessarily a problem..               eventually the 2 signals can be re-boosted in some ways

              • hurghanico Just Startin'
                hurghanico
                399 posts since
                Jan 28, 2007
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                Nov 3, 2012 11:34 AM (in response to hurghanico)
                Re: Input sources question

                Little addendum

                 

                people sometimes complain about the sound resulting from their HD defining it harsh, farty, noisy, clipping .. and so on ...

                 

                and there is a widespread belief that this issue is due to the settings of the 2 input sources that if both set on the same instrument, would overload the amps and fx in the chain ..

                 

                In my opinion the above belief is totally unfounded ..

                 

                I think the real problem is another:

                too much amp gain/drive, perhaps associated with too extreme settings of the amp eq controls ..

                 

                in particular with the amp drive/gain you should not exaggerate, when you need more push/distortion, you can (often is preferable) to insert some kind of overdrive fx before the amp model..

                 

                {let us remember that even the real amps can result not very satisfactory if set in a bad way}

                 

                -----------------------------------------------------------------------

                 

                and then let's not forget a really great and often underestimated resource to retouch the sound: the mic models available ..

                 

                me, for each amp model I could find no less than 3 very good and different versions just changing the mic model ..

                 

                each mic model applies a specific and different equalization curve that influence the resulting sound in a much more characteristic, effective and drastic way compared to the variations possible through just the amp eq controls ..

                 

                often choosing the right mic you could easily eliminate just some annoying frequencies, as well as to emphasize those that you like..

                 

                obviously the loaves and fishes multiply further by changing also the cabs, and other things avaible ..

                 

                Moral of the story:

                don't be extreme on the amp controls settings and use more the other resources available, this is my suggestion

                • hansvaneven Just Startin'
                  hansvaneven
                  372 posts since
                  Jan 31, 2007
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                  Oct 29, 2012 3:03 AM (in response to hurghanico)
                  Re: Input sources question

                  HI hurghanico

                   

                  I believe it all depends on what you need, personally some amps lack that extra drive in slingle input mode, sounds better wiyth both inputs activated (even with gain at 100% for metal lead tones),, but I'm more and more using a small compressor in front of the amp to achive better sustain like on a real amp.

                   

                  This all said, I still think L6 SHOULD write a better user manual on this point, or do a quickstart manual and a reference manual, like we can find on some Roland gear, as this is quite important on the result of your tone, it's actually increadible there is so few info about it.

                   

                  Cheers,

                   

                  Hans

                  • hurghanico Just Startin'
                    hurghanico
                    399 posts since
                    Jan 28, 2007
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                    Oct 29, 2012 10:36 AM (in response to hansvaneven)
                    Re: Input sources question

                    hansvaneven ha scritto:

                     

                    This all said, I still think L6 SHOULD write a better user manual on this point, or do a quickstart manual and a reference manual, like we can find on some Roland gear, as this is quite important on the result of your tone, it's actually increadible there is so few info about it.

                    Hi Hans

                     

                    I agree

                     

                    In fact there are already a Quick Start Guide and an Advanced Guide


                    especially in the advanced guide in my opinion should be listed with precision and clarity all the details regarding certain settings ..
                    then it's up to the users to choose among the alternatives the best solutions depending on their equipment and what they like more, but with the awareness of what they do ..
                    I do not think that is asking too much ..
                    a guide that describes itself as "advanced" should contain this information and more, maybe even only in the appendix ..

                     

                    between us which bought the HD500 there are people who want instant results without going into much detail, but there are also a lot of geeks (myself included) for which the details are considered very important, probably some of us are even able to assemble some electronic effects by themselves or do other technical works for which the details are important, so why not give this precise information to us geeks?

                     

                    however, even without detailed official explanations, with regard to the topic of this thread it seems quite obvious which are considered by Line6 the standard settings, which in the end are nothing other than the default settings, which can be changed in case you need to plug 2 instruments at the same time..

                    that's also simply explains why the "null" option doesn't exist, and probably never will..

                • hurghanico Just Startin'
                  hurghanico
                  399 posts since
                  Jan 28, 2007
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                  Oct 31, 2012 7:34 AM (in response to hurghanico)
                  Re: Input sources question

                  But, let's think a little more!

                   

                  We bought the Line6 flagship unit, and we have been convinced that to make it work better, we need to set one of the 2 inputs to "null", that does not actually exist, and so we had to invent it using one of the other unused inputs, practically we would put a patch on what it is assumed that Line6 has omitted to implement ..

                   

                  but really seems acceptable to you such a thing?..

                   

                  and the often accepted reason/answer would be because the guitars are so many and diverse that our beloved POD may not work well as it is with all of them?..

                   

                  but if it were really like this I should think I've done a very bad purchase ..

                   

                  thankfully it is not, and although there are still some little bugs to fix, I consider the HD500 a very good modeler..

                   

                  My personal answer to the above issue:

                  the "null" option doesn't exist because it has no reason to exist

                   

                  The truth is that there are several people who have little or no experience in settings with real amps, and therefore they mess with virtual replicas of the available controls and other settings without really knowing what they're doing, and therefore the results are not that great..

                   

                  When you buy the HD500 one of the first things you do is to try the factory presets, some are not bad, but others are quite disappointing, it is true!, I think so too!, but then I realized that you just have to adjust a little the drive (often lowering it) and the situation improves a lot ..

                   

                  Is not going to mutilate the default inputs the best way to solve the problem ..

                   

                  if a more suitable adjustment of the drive is not enough because maybe you have a guitar with a signal really too high, then the second best solution is to adjust the physical switch "GUITAR IN" to "PAD"..

                   

                  It's my interest that the products of Line6 (which I use for some time now) continue to grow in the best possible direction, and for the moment it seems to me the right one, just wish the documentation would need several tweaks and additions..

                   

                  I also hope that HD users understand and learn well how best use these machines, in the end is not that complicated, I don't think I would be happy if future PODs were so to speak "POD for Dummies"..

                   

                  To me some complexity does not scare at all, rather it stimulates me a lot to have so many variables with which I can build my custom sound, for this reason I like the HD500 ..

                   

                  If the next POD should be even richer in variables, it will definitely mine within a short time

                  • scottyo78 Just Startin'
                    scottyo78
                    114 posts since
                    May 29, 2006
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Oct 31, 2012 4:08 PM (in response to hurghanico)
                    Re: Input sources question

                    Wow, so much good input and opinions!

                     

                    I've been able to get a decent sound out of all the amps. I don't give up just because it initially doesn't "sound good". I near always go thru the cabs and mics then if needed I'll go into the DEP's a bit. An idea of what a particular amp was meant for is helpful too cuz you're not going to get a Dual Rectifier sound from the Gibtone and visa-versa.

                     

                    Another thing I think is a detriment is that too many FX and some Preset amp settings are set to the 100% maximum and I think that turns off a lot of people initially cuz of the sonic frivolity.   The Wah's for example: I will set mine from Min 20-30% to Max 70-80%... if they're left at the (initial) 0-100% it's just too much or fake for me.

                     

                    It comes down to your very own ears. How many times did I (or even yourself ) "dial in" the tone only to say "meh" the next day? Ear fatigue is another thing to consider in all this fun debate.

                    • hurghanico Just Startin'
                      hurghanico
                      399 posts since
                      Jan 28, 2007
                      Currently Being Moderated
                      Oct 31, 2012 6:50 PM (in response to scottyo78)
                      Re: Input sources question

                      scottyo78 ha scritto:

                       

                      ...I've been able to get a decent sound out of all the amps...

                      me too

                      ...How many times did I (or even yourself ) "dial in" the tone only to say "meh" the next day? Ear fatigue is another thing to consider in all this fun debate...

                      it is true, I noticed that too, after a while you try out different solutions and settings, takes place probably a certain saturation , so it might be better to stop and resume at another time ..


                      since it is important for me to spend more time playing rather than editing, every time I look for new sounds I try (when I succeed) to give myself a limit , it is easy to get carried away, and the time goes almost without realizing it ..

                      we must be careful! otherwise with this type of objects (modelers, etc.), if we exaggerate with time spent on tweakings, we risk to transform us from musicians to engineers, which probably was not our ambition

                      therefore, when I feel like, I do a few experiments, if I like the result I save the patch, otherwise I use the ones I already baptized as good before, and I begin to play

                      • SWoRd Just Startin'
                        SWoRd
                        48 posts since
                        Jun 5, 2008
                        Currently Being Moderated
                        Nov 1, 2012 1:13 AM (in response to hurghanico)
                        Re: Input sources question

                        Hi fellow POD'ers

                         

                        I've been reading a lot of posts on this issue, and it's my impression that many POD users (myself included) struggle with proper gain staging inside the POD. All guitars are different and two similar guitars can be different because of setup variations including pick-up hight etc. My rig is JTV69 > HD500 > DT25 and even when using different guitar models in the same guitar, the volume levels can vary significantly. There are large differences in volume level between the clean Fender amps and the amps with higher gain, so it's critical to get proper gain staging to balance the volume across all the patches in a setlist, without causing clipping in some of the patches.

                         

                        The problem: To my knowledge it is not possible to check the gain level of the signal at various points in the signal chain inside the POD.

                         

                        One solution: Make a simple stereo VU meter available as an FX block that you can move around and check the gain staging at different points in the signal chain while building a patch.

                         

                        Best regards

                        Soren

                        • hurghanico Just Startin'
                          hurghanico
                          399 posts since
                          Jan 28, 2007
                          Currently Being Moderated
                          Nov 1, 2012 4:35 AM (in response to SWoRd)
                          Re: Input sources question

                          Hi Soren

                           

                          if for clipping you mean the digital one (the most disgusting, the worst), I believe that this problem may only arise when the instrument signal (if too strong) arrives to the POD input, when from analog it becomes digital, and therefore in the input stage of our modeler ..

                           

                          (and so it is not your case if you use a Variax connected to the VDI)


                          what happens then digitally inside, I do not think could cause a further digital clipping, but eventually a simulation of analog clipping, that is how to say a type of distortion (not necessarily unpleasant, depends on the case, and certainly not disgusting                           as the digital one) ..

                          therefore in other words, if you cause digital clipping in the input stage of the POD then you carry it back all the way up to the final output ..

                          but if there is no clipping at the beginning, it depends on you and your ears adjust the gain for each block in the chain to get the most pleasant and balanced results, in the end the best VU meter are our ears, in my opinion ..

                          • jimsreynolds Power User
                            jimsreynolds
                            2,227 posts since
                            Jun 27, 43450
                            Currently Being Moderated
                            Nov 1, 2012 4:37 AM (in response to hurghanico)
                            Re: Input sources question

                            Yes, +1 Hurghanico.   Ears are the thing.  If you really need to understand whether there is an excessive boost at a given point then you can either flip the effect on and off to assess whether it is boosting/cutting too much. Make sure you are happy that the level coming into your POD is enough/not clipping then the rest can be managed using various strategies.

                             

                            In certain cases, it may help to turn other effects and amps off while listening.  In particular compressors in the chain can confuse your perception of levels by the very nature of what they do .... contain levels!  View them with suspicion, both within themselves and while assessing other levels in the chain.

                             

                            I always end up building my own patches (with a few stolen ideas from others of course ) and that keeps me very aware of levels throughout the system,  I rarely get problems with overload unless I am stacking ODs and compressions without due care and attention.

                             

                            For post-amp effects the one to watch out for is the mixer gain which when high can clip some effects.  The trick there is to make sure that the effects are between the amp and mixer .... or reduce the mixer level and do a final level boost with a Studio EQ at the end of chain.


                            I think that a moveable VU meter may be only partially helpful in this situation.  It may help you spot when a level is completely maxed but it will not allow you to assess the relative 'loudness' of an effect or patch.  As Hurganico suggests:  it very much depends on the frequencies within the sound as to whether it sounds loud or not to the human ear.  Therefore it may be useful as a check for clipping  but your ears are the things that will ultimately tell you what is 'right'.

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