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688 Views 19 Replies Latest reply: Dec 26, 2012 5:39 PM by lukegeis RSS
mentals Just Startin' 4 posts since
Feb 14, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Dec 20, 2012 1:59 AM

POD HD 500 / Direct to P.A. / Heavy compression needed?

Dear fellow users

 

For a couple of months I've owned the HD 500, before that I used Roland VG-99, Line 6 POD XT Pro. I still use POD Farm, where I find getting the tones I imagine is really easy.

For the last couple of years I've been going "direct" to P.A. and I wouldn't want to change that.

 

I find it really hard getting into the HD 500 and so far have found it difficult to achieve the desired results. I usually start with just an AMP and I think that itself should sound good. But it doesn't. I always seem to have to eliminate fizzyness/harshness (the new Soldano amps seem to be an exception). When done with that, I find the results not very convincing and "fragile", i.e. if I tweak something, I'm back to fizzyness... Also, I find the volume levels are rather low compared to the previous devices. The work around as it seems, is to compress the sound. I've found that some good patches I downloaded use compression quite heavily, too. I have now even managed to create patches that I like and I can build on. But they use heavy compression which audibly reduces the dynamic of the playing.

 

Is it the HD 500 or is it me? Do I have to compress the sounds heavily in order to achieve great direct sounds?

Are there any "reference" patches for "direct use" that you can recommend?

 

Maybe my description is unclear, not specific enough or doesn't make sense... but if somebody has experienced similar things or has any thoughts I'd be glad to know!

 

Thanks for listening!

 

All the best,

 

Matt

  • Octo777 Iknowathingortwo 851 posts since
    Feb 23, 2008

    The most obvious thing that I am going to ask is, are you using the full Amp Models (and not the Pre's)?

  • silverhead Expert Line 6 User 9,592 posts since
    Apr 1, 2009

    Have you updated your HD500 to the latest firmware?

  • mdmayfield Just Startin' 353 posts since
    Feb 24, 2007

    Over the years I've seen lots of different people use this term "fizz" and it seems like nobody has the same definition, except for "something in the sound I don't like." So people go on forums and see reports of others describing problems as "fizz" and they assume that it's the same thing they're hearing and think "Me too!" ... But it may or may not be. So, a few questions to try to pinpoint what you're experiencing:

     

    • What are some of the (more successful) strategies you've used to eliminate what you describe as fizz? (What EQ settings, etc.)
    • Can you provide a more detailed description of what the sound is that you don't like? (If you can, name specific frequency ranges)

     

    As far as practical suggestions:

     

    • Are you certain that you're compensating for the just-plain lower volume level of the HD500's output? Sometimes low volume creates an extremely convincing illusion of poor tone, and even at max Master Volume, my HD500 is MUCH quieter than my XT Live. I have to boost the gain at my PA input.
    • Ensure your Output Mode is on Studio/Direct.
    • If you're using high gain, check out meambobbo's Pod HD High Gain Tone Guide: http://line6.com/support/thread/71651

     

    Hope that helps.

     

    Thanks,

     

    Matt

    • mdmayfield Just Startin' 353 posts since
      Feb 24, 2007

      Thinking about this a little more...

       

      Since you mention compression as a way you've made it sound better, my instincts are pointing toward the simple-but-easily-overlooked issue of sheer volume level. Most of the reason compression makes (or seems to make) things sound better, even when it damages the dynamics, is that it makes them LOUDER... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ)

       

      So crank the HD's output and turn up your input gain, and see if that makes a difference.

      • jimsreynolds Power User 2,227 posts since
        Jun 27, 43450

        mentals wrote:

         

        . Is it a known fact that the volume of the POD HD 500 is lower than of other units?

        The 1/4" Unbalanced outputs can run at instrument level (~10dBV) or line level (+4dBu).  However, the XLR Outputs run at Mic Level, not line. Mic level is variable but is a generally somewhat lower than either instrument or line level and needs a mic pre-amp to bring the level up to line level.  Usually this boost is available  from the mixing console in the form of input gain controls.

        • mdmayfield Just Startin' 353 posts since
          Feb 24, 2007

          You're right; technically the HD500 is at line level... But as you'd expect, with real-world musical material that has dynamic range, "line level" is a general "neighborhood" of signal levels, rather than one specific level in dBu / dBV as it is with test tones. At least comparing the ones I own, the HD500 is much quieter at max volume than the XT Live at max volume.

           

          I don't remember exactly, but I think it's at least a 10 dB difference.

          • mdmayfield Just Startin' 353 posts since
            Feb 24, 2007

            Actually, I may have spoken too soon; I just remembered that I always set my own custom patches lower than the presets so I have room to boost them when volume-matching tones. Jim, have you ever had a chance to compare the two, and if so, did you notice a difference?

            • jimsreynolds Power User 2,227 posts since
              Jun 27, 43450

              Matt, this is going to sound fatuous but I didn't actually listen to the custom patches for about a month after I got the unit because I was working on getting an effects only rig.  Since then I have skimmed through them a couple of times out of curiosity but I don't use/clone them and I don't use custom download patches.  I am DIY all the way so I am afraid I don't really have a reference ... sorry!

               

              What I was trying to get to before is that the output from the XLRs is a heck of a lot lower than line so if the OP is using and expecting line level from those outputs then that may be the problem. From a pure voltage perspective, using standard reference voltages:

               

               

              LevelVoltage
              Professional Line Level, +4 dBu1.23
              Consumer Line Level,  -10 dBV0.32
              Instrument/Amp Level, -20 dBV0.10
              Dynamic Mic Level, SM58, -54.5 dBV

              (1 Pa = 94 dB SPL)

              0.002

               

              I take your point re the reference levels being ballparks but the difference here is dramatic enough that it counts.You can see pretty quickly that Mic voltages are way below the levels of the other outputs so yeah, an XLR connection from the POD into a line level connection at the other end is going to be quiet and would need nearly 60dB Boost to match a line level connection.   I dont think we have a precise output level for the XLR connections other than 'Mic' but I understand that it is comparible to an SM58.

               

              Edit 28/12:  Though Instrument/Amp level is usually considered to be around -20dB,  I am inclined to agree with lukegeis, in the post below  that 'amp' and 'stomp' levels on the Pod are at -10dB. 

              • mdmayfield Just Startin' 353 posts since
                Feb 24, 2007

                OK now I see - we were talking about different things. I know exactly what you mean with regard to the different mic vs. line levels, but that wasn't what I was referring to earlier - I was comparing the HD500's 1/4" outs (supposed to be line level, but at least on my setup, quite low) with the XTLive's 1/4" outs (also line level, and on mine, much hotter than the HD500).

                 

                But I suspect that it's just that I'm setting my patch levels with much more headroom on the HD500 than I did on the XTL. I never used the presets either, which was why I was so surprised when I called one up and it was much louder than any of my own patches.

              • lukegeis Just Startin' 45 posts since
                Apr 2, 2012

                Your absolutely correct on the outputs of the different types. The 1/4" line outs on the pod are much hotter ( obviously +4 dbu ) than the other such outputs. In the amp ( little switch that says line / amp ) setting my guess is that it is a -10 db setting to accomodate the standard -10 db in most guitar amps and the XLR outs on the pod are sent at MIC level. This is meant to be sent directly to a mixer where it will be gained up to unity. As a goal for setting up things this way, I use this approach.

                 

                1. Most mixers show you were the theoryetical unity gain is achieved. I set the HA ( head amp ) gain knob to that spot.

                 

                2. I then turn the channel volume ( The actual knob with volume written under it ) down after the effect is chosen. I mean on the POD,  not on the mixer. This level should already be down. 

                 

                3. I bring it back up while playing with the PFL switch on the mixer engaged and stop when the level reaches unity.

                 

                For those less knowledgable about pro audio I will explain a bit. Unity is the expression used to descibe that there is neither attenuation, nor amplification of the incoming signal.  The HA ( head amp ) is a fixed gain potential device. That means that the knob is mearly an attenuation knob. The strength of the incoming signal will determine the position that that knob will be when UNITY is acheived. In other words a low signal will require less attenuation and the HA gain will be turned pretty far up in order to achieve unity gain. This is why I set the HA gain knob to it's unity gain position ( if you mixer shows you that ). I do this because this setting is the optimal position for the most amount of gain and least amount of noise. The Unity position marked on most mixers is mearly the spot were unity gain would be achieved if the incoming signal was at unity it'self. That means that the reference signal coming in at unity ( or essentially 0 db ) would be unity at that HA gain setting as well. To achieve unity gain simply PFL the repective channel ( to see it's signal strength prior to the channels fader ) and adjust the HA gain until the meter blinks to 0 db. This is the optimal way to achieve low noise and good channel fader resolution. You will also notice that the level meter on the side has numbers and at zero or 0 db it says normal. This is the unity gain level and is the level at which you should get all inputs to be at when they are PFL'd. There is another type of metering called AFL, or After fader listen. If you use AFL your meter level will be what the channel is at including it's fader position. I.E. if the fader is all the way down you will not see any level at the meter. Unity gain on the channels fader is that larger white line in the lightly shaded area. It should also show a zero or a U. Refer to the picture and you will see the U located at the 12:00 position on this particular mixers gain knob and the U located on the channels fader. The norm or 0 db is located on the last green led of the level meter.

                 

                http://www.woodbrass.com/images/woodbrass/mackie+dfx12+mixer+analogique+12+entrees.JPG

  • Akeron Just Startin' 224 posts since
    Jul 23, 2011

    mentals wrote:

     

    Also, I find the volume levels are rather low compared to the previous devices. The work around as it seems, is to compress the sound. I've found that some good patches I downloaded use compression quite heavily, too. I have now even managed to create patches that I like and I can build on. But they use heavy compression which audibly reduces the dynamic of the playing.

     

    Is it the HD 500 or is it me? Do I have to compress the sounds heavily in order to achieve great direct sounds?

    Are there any "reference" patches for "direct use" that you can recommend?

     

    Yes, you have to use (at least) a compressor or boost the input to have a decent volume when playing direct. Now, if the amps had a compressor in the deps...

    • mdmayfield Just Startin' 353 posts since
      Feb 24, 2007

      Akeron wrote:

       

      Yes, you have to use (at least) a compressor or boost the input to have a decent volume when playing direct. Now, if the amps had a compressor in the deps...

       

      It sounds like you're talking about two different things here:

       

      - Input level to the amp model (controls how much distortion)

      - Output level from the HD500

       

      But you're trying to boost one to affect the other.

       

      If the issue is that you're not getting enough signal to the PA, you'd be better served by simply increasing the HD's output and/or the input channel on the PA, rather than inserting a compressor at an earlier point in the signal chain than where the problem is. Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?

      • Akeron Just Startin' 224 posts since
        Jul 23, 2011

        By "playing direct" I meant "in Studio/Direct", not connected to a external power amp and\or cab but, as in my case, to a Hi-Fi stereo and stereo speakers. Without a compressor or two, even a at 100% with the Plexi, I get very little distortion. With a compressor, I can have the Drive on 50% on the model and have natural distortion, more ore less like if it was the real amp. The same if I connect to an analog mixer and then to the POD and rise the input volume (where the guitar jack is) on the mixer.

  • lukegeis Just Startin' 45 posts since
    Apr 2, 2012

    Well the compressor before the amp will cause it to break up more since most of the compressors in the POD are make up gain style. The Plexi isn't exactly a high gain monster either and I am guessing that you want even more despite the fact that the DEP settings for the amp master volume is 100% ? If it is a matter of I just need more volume and not more crunch, I would simply turn up the mixer on the POD. It can do plus 12db on both channels. Should only need +6 db to get what you need?

     

    More on the actual amp models. The amp has the gain ( like on any amp ) and a master volume is located in the amps DEP function. I'm not sure but some of the amps that are modeled are not master volume amps. The Plexi is one such amp as well as a coupel others in teh list. But the amps still have a master volume in the DEP functions. May want to play with those and see what you can get. I know that I can get plenty of gain out of a JCM 800 by pinning everything to 11!!!!!  I don't mind the more dynamic quieter levels from the POD, I just simply get a level at the mixer and place it where I want it in the mix.

     

    All that compression does in general is reduce dynamic range. It is an anti dynamics tool, so I wouldn't ask much more of it. With subtle compression you can increase the average listening level a little bit, as you get more extreme and closer to limiting, you get to zero dynamic range and a much higher listening level. I prefer the natural low compression myslef.

  • EKuchelmeister Just Startin' 10 posts since
    Feb 9, 2012

    Hello mentals,

    I do not really know what you mean with "fizzyness", sorry but I'm only a stupid german ;-)

    I used several gears for several years and allways found a way for good sound, even with the HD 500.

    First of all I will say: high compression is no good solution, because it will affect to the dynamic of your playing.

    I sometimes use it for special countrystyle sounds or to give a little more sustain zu high-gain sounds.

    Reading your post, it is not quite clear to me where the unwanted sound is generated. Guitar amps have no fullrange frequenzy, so that you don't hear all noises.

    It should be clear what is "fizz"? Distortion (to much gain on the input amplifier of the mixer) or noise (like a defect cable or bad tuned radio)?

    BTW: I found out, that if you use in the input configuration input1 "guitar" input2 "guitar" oder "same" and you go through mono-fx like noisegate or even input of an amp model you will get disharmonious distortion.

    • JTSC777 Just Startin' 63 posts since
      Jun 22, 2012

      I have an HD300 and if the master volume in the patch parameters is cranked you will hear nasty speaker breakup which I personally do not like. Remember these cabs are modeled to the finest detail and speaker breakup in the cab is part of it.I lower the master to around 60 or 70 per cent(full amp model enabled) and pretty much use only the Fender 2x12 cab model. This gives me more consistency for live direct tones and levels things out.The Fender is really the only clean cab model in the HD300. I think for some of these things they used very old cabs with raggedy worn out speakers as their sample. Lots of players like that. I don't like speaker distortion so I worked around it in this way. Compression is something to be careful with and not add a lot of. Good Luck!

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