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387 Views 20 Replies Latest reply: Jan 15, 2013 7:30 PM by pauliusmm RSS
ivylotus Just Startin' 27 posts since
Jan 7, 2013
Currently Being Moderated

Jan 11, 2013 1:09 PM

I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

Well, after two USB to MIDI interface purchases (one having to be sent back), multiple calls to Line 6 tech support, and lots of effort by my dealer to get other answers, my buzz is looking pretty dead. They rolled out V2, trumpeted it on their website at least in part as an enticement to new buyers, then blew the implementation. Five things:

 

1) Failure to publish a list of USB to MIDI interfaces that work - in presale information: At the vrey least, give this information to dealers, because anyone who is going to buy a DT25 is going to want the option of using the new firmware, and should not be sent on a wild goose chase.To not share the information they have readily available is just obnoxious.

 

2) No useful documentation: The V2 release is essentially undocumented. I had to go through tech support to find out what the knobs on five models (9/15, AC15, AC30, Supro, Flip Top) do once the V2 firmware is installed. Someone here pointed out it is in the HD500 advanced user's guide. Great. And that does a DT25 buyer what good until he/she is told? The Amp Gallery is nothing but marketing copy. I know what a Hiwatt is. Tell me how your amp works.

 

3) Drive knob: Seemed to be nothing but a redundant volume on the Twin and Hiwatt models, for instance, but I couldn't be sure. The answer I got is that what it does depends on the amp chosen. That's the first sentence of what is probably a two paragraph proper answer, plus a chart of the 30 amp models, showing what it actually does with each.

 

4) Extreme volume level mismatches: This wouldn't be a huge problem in and of itself, but it is a bit of an annoyance to be experimenting, and then suddenly it's WAY LOUDER because I went from the Hiwatt to the AC15 (which is also pretty counter-intuitive). I get this is a limitation of the hardware design. I could probably work with it. But when I'm guessing at so much else and already have a sense that Line 6 couldn't care less, it becomes a sticking point. Brains are funny that way.

 

5) Functional use of V2: It's insane that we have to either use an iOS app (which makes no sense on about 5 levels) to get the benefits of V2, or be saved by a volunteer's (excellent) code. LIne 6 should be offering to license that program and make it available via their website. People who bought this amp and aren't HD500 users are not likely to be command line MIDI programmers.

 

For some people, I am sure the original DT25 was a great choice. It does sound very, very good. For others, the HD500 integration is all they need to not feel limited by the DT25 original specs. For me, I didn't want menus or LCDs. I just wanted a (more) multi-voice amp that works like an amp. They delivered much of that functionality, but with a healthy dose of doubt-inducing confusion, hoop jumps, and "your problem" mentality. I just don't know what to expect from them, and I don't want to be left holding the bag.

 

I haven't decided yet. Maybe I'll take the weekend. But it's disappointing. And who wants to spend money on gear in order to feel disappointed?

  • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
    Jan 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 11, 2013 7:04 PM (in response to ivylotus)
    Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

    Based on your posts I have read, moving on seems like a good idea to me...Line 6 culture and the HD/DT system doesn't seem to reach your expectations and is causing you frustration....Nothing wrong with moving on..Finding the gear that fits your wants is the important thing...good luck sir..

  • LUGJUG12 Just Startin' 14 posts since
    Feb 1, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 11, 2013 9:03 PM (in response to ivylotus)
    Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

    I am sorry but i just do not understand why there are some people who are having problems with this amp and are disapointed with it?It does exactly what i want it to do and lots more.  I got rid of my jcm800 2203 moddified that i had for years 17 to be exact(and said i would have it 4 ever)and my mesa dual recti road king and peavey stereo chorus which is hiding in my basement don"t tell my wife:) because i am so happy with this setup dt50 and hd500 and xt live in the loop.i also sold all my tc electronics stuff to my lead guitarist and only keep the minimum to record such as a mic preamp and sonic maximizer.people who say it does not sound like the original i say ia got this to sound better than ia was ever able to get my road king to sound and with out a power soak and with out killing my ears.does it sound the same kind of and i find better because ia can do what i whant with it . i now go to shows i play and give 1 cable xlr out to the sound guy and we are good to go ******** fooling around with mic placement and other. i am not a pro but just a guy who plays covers every weekend with 3 different bands rock 60's and 70's rock 80's and grunge and metallica to suicidal to opeth and pantera and i even play classical with a couple of friends with this setup and am 1000% happy with it the only thing i can say negative is i do not like the cab(sorry line6) but i now use

    2 genz benz g-flex cabs and i love them with this amp it has so much bass it is amazing it is like using a sub  with your amp.my mesa i always had the bass on 65% now it is 40% and it hits hard when i palm mute.I f any one wants to have poiters or such on using the hd and dt50 together i am willing to help as i think this amp doenot get enough praise on this site only the negative is here and i know this is a support forum so yes people having trouble are the ones posting here .If you need advise or settings i try to help to the best i can as i think this is 1 of the best polvalente amplie ever made the soldano and fender and ac30 is spot on and the jcm is better than the original i had to moddify and boost mine to gat it to sound like i can do with this at half the level. so iam done with my ramble( others should do the same if you are satified )and if you need help( i will try) donot be shy to ask as i might even need yours.   Leo

  • HwyStar Just Startin' 13 posts since
    Mar 18, 2012
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2013 7:06 AM (in response to ivylotus)
    Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

    I've had my DT25 and extended cabinet for about a month now. I like it. I do plan on replacing the speakers and modifying the bottom cabinet to be like the top cabinet. Ported on the back and close off the front ports. I also plan on a second stack for stereo, more power and redundancy.  New tubes as well.

     

    I do get a little tired of messing with the HD500 and the amp together but without the POD connected to it, the amp only has two channels and that's not enough.

     

    There is no perfect amp but this setup is pretty nice!

  • Krontab Just Startin' 201 posts since
    Mar 15, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 12, 2013 2:26 PM (in response to ivylotus)
    Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

    "1) Failure to publish a list of USB to MIDI interfaces that work - in presale information: At the vrey least, give this information to dealers, because anyone who is going to buy a DT25 is going to want the option of using the new firmware, and should not be sent on a wild goose chase.To not share the information they have readily available is just obnoxious."

     

    Even if they give the info to the dealers, the dealers seldom read it. In this case MIDI is a standard communication protocol from the 1980's and they cannot predict what device your computer will work with. I have used M-audio, Roland, and an old controller from the 1980's with my DT25 without issue. The device speaks MIDI. If you are having problems implementing a MIDI port on your machine that is between you and the MIDI port vendor.

     

    "2) No useful documentation: The V2 release is essentially undocumented. I had to go through tech support to find out what the knobs on five models (9/15, AC15, AC30, Supro, Flip Top) do once the V2 firmware is installed. Someone here pointed out it is in the HD500 advanced user's guide. Great. And that does a DT25 buyer what good until he/she is told? The Amp Gallery is nothing but marketing copy. I know what a Hiwatt is. Tell me how your amp works."

     

    I agree, my old flextone documentation had the type of info you are looking for. This level of detail seemed to cease about 4 years ago with Line 6. They did do a good write up on the MIDI implementation.

     

    "3) Drive knob: Seemed to be nothing but a redundant volume on the Twin and Hiwatt models, for instance, but I couldn't be sure. The answer I got is that what it does depends on the amp chosen. That's the first sentence of what is probably a two paragraph proper answer, plus a chart of the 30 amp models, showing what it actually does with each."

     

    Again I agree, docs are all sizzle and no bacon. The user community is very helpful though.

     

    "4) Extreme volume level mismatches: This wouldn't be a huge problem in and of itself, but it is a bit of an annoyance to be experimenting, and then suddenly it's WAY LOUDER because I went from the Hiwatt to the AC15 (which is also pretty counter-intuitive). I get this is a limitation of the hardware design. I could probably work with it. But when I'm guessing at so much else and already have a sense that Line 6 couldn't care less, it becomes a sticking point. Brains are funny that way."

     

    This could have been implemented better or at least explained better. The issue with modeling into a tube power amp is that in order to get the power amp to react in the the desired manner it needs to be pushed or not pushed at an appropriate level by the pre-amp. This is more an issue of melding modeled pre to real power amp topology. Since they have only 4 amp topologies and 30 models there is going to be a compromise. My perspective is that the amp was designed to be able to switch from A to B on the fly with the WYSIWYG knobs and you can adjust the volume to be consistant between the two. Live switching amp models on just one of the channels would introduce your issue, but you would have to adjust the other knobs as well. I'm glad they did not sacrifice modeling accuracy in lew of volume concerns.

     

    "5) Functional use of V2: It's insane that we have to either use an iOS app (which makes no sense on about 5 levels) to get the benefits of V2, or be saved by a volunteer's (excellent) code. LIne 6 should be offering to license that program and make it available via their website. People who bought this amp and aren't HD500 users are not likely to be command line MIDI programmers."

     

    They could have been more inclusive, but hey did not remove function from when I bought mine a year ago. They just added function for those that wanted to buy or had bought the iOS device. The assumption that people who bought this amp aren't HD500 users is not true in all cases. It does sound like you would prefer the presetting of a POD HD unit. The amp alone is just a two channel amp with a lot of options. It was designed to compete with the Egnator Tweaker and the Mesa Trans Atlantic that contain no presetting and no MIDI implementation. The intension was not to create a new Vetta or Flextone that had full POD's integrated with them. They wanted to create a dumber amp that could be attached to a HD500 if you needed the presetting and effects.

      • Krontab Just Startin' 201 posts since
        Mar 15, 2006
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jan 12, 2013 6:57 PM (in response to ivylotus)
        Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

        Responses to points:

         

        1) Not defending so much as making an observation. In normal operation the DT device speaks MIDI. If the MIDI interface you are trying to install is not working the issue that is between you and the MIDI interface vendor and the PC vendor. If line 6 is the PC or MAC MIDI interface vendor then they are on the hook(not sure in your case if they are, I'm only taking the DT25 into consideration). I'm just trying to direct you to the correct party to provide a solution. The only exception here is if the DT25 is malfunctioning and not speaking MIDI, then seek repair or exchange.

         

        2) Just the way it is unfortunatly, not enough of a deterent for me. I guess the option is to stop using the device in protest, but I think I would miss out on the fun I do have despite the documentation holes.

         

        3) See #2 response

         

        4) Its not as versital without the POD HD, with or without v2. In my opinion v2 does not signifigantly change the amp other than to allow you to swap the existing models for ones you might like more. I bought a HD 500 to expand the device as I well understood the limitations when I purchased it. Their choice to embrace Apple as a preferred interface is limiting, but at least they didn't block a third party from making an interface. Even with the interface it really is not adding any real live capability as the dial positions are not saved. Target market is to old school clean and dirt channel users and they nailed it. If your arguement is I should have more features because I did not invest in the whole system then your logic is lost on me.

         

        5) If you bought the stand alone amp you bought in to those limitations. Deintegrating the preset brain from the amp allows for more versitility in the end as I can use my HD 500 independantly for silent recording or integrating into a PA easily. After all they have to compete with Digitech and Roland FX boards that are not tightly integrated. Combing that into the amp closes off the other market of users. What if I have another amp entirely or hate the DT25(one of my friends hates it and uses a Tech 21 with his HD 500)? The modular brain allows me to have the modeling and fx indepenedant of the amp choice. They could have combined it all together with a pedal board but it would have been priced at $1500 instead of $1000. It's all a matter of perspective. On the sales front I have never dealt directly with Line 6. I just have dealt with Guitar Center employees and some know what the equiptment is and some do not. Line 6 could choose to use dealers that use higher paid employees that study and certify on the equiptment but that cost would inevitably be pushed down to us. I personally have had a lot of fun with this equiptment despite Line 6's descrepancies and modicum of challenges. I can't think of a more versital system for the price. Egnator Tweaker or Mesa Tran Atlantc? They are just two channel amps and for the price of the Mesa you can buy the DT25 with at least an HD 400. I will note that the Mesa sounds devine and almost got me to forsake all of this modeling.

          • pauliusmm Just Startin' 24 posts since
            Jan 28, 2010
            Currently Being Moderated
            Jan 13, 2013 4:49 AM (in response to ivylotus)
            Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

            I agree that from standalone amp users view it seems limited and a bit unfair. Its like they put the most delicious soup on the table and only give us the fork.

            About what you see is what you get approuch ... If you use dt25 with pod you dont have this approach, and this allows you to tweak all models to be useable. Why not make the same for standalone amp?

            • Krontab Just Startin' 201 posts since
              Mar 15, 2006
              Currently Being Moderated
              Jan 13, 2013 5:18 AM (in response to pauliusmm)
              Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

              I suspect cost. They did this in the past. I had one of the Flextone III XL's. The only issue I had with this was when they upgraded to the POD X3 Live it was not useable with the Flextone (ground loops, idiosyncrocies, and such) and I had to invest in a new amp. I actually stuck it out with the Flextone and skipped a POD generation due to that. The current L6 Link system really does allow for future swapping of the L6 brain without needing to upgrade the amp. Even my Flextone required a floorboard to go from 4 presets to 36. This modular approach allows for more options in the end. The HD300 costs just as much as the dumb floorboard for my Flextone did. I'm sure they will change tactical direction if sales slump. The limitations are clear, you know what to buy to get the desired result. At least I had no issue discerning this from the limited knowlege of sales staff at my local Guitar Center and the limited online manuals at the time. At least there is an entry level to buy. If they loaded it up and charged more, the entry level dissappears. Even in its complete system it is more bang for the buck than its competitors.

          • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
            Dec 24, 2011
            Currently Being Moderated
            Jan 13, 2013 9:53 AM (in response to ivylotus)
            Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

            Try this before you return the unit.  I know it adds complexity you don't want but it's pretty cool!

             

            http://line6.com/support/thread/90718?tstart=0

  • BigBob-Irwin Just Startin' 9 posts since
    Feb 11, 2012
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 14, 2013 2:34 AM (in response to ivylotus)
    Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

    What you got when you purchased the amp was a 2 channel amp where you could put different amps on each channel or the same amp with one more gained up on one channel than the other and all this out of a choice of 4 amp models. Now what you have is the same 2 channel amp with the choice of 22 amp models to choose from and with the addition of a od or distortion pedal in the front of the amp I can think of nothing more versatile for the price. In other words what other manufacturer is making a valve output amp with a choice of amp model out of a selection of most of the classic amps ever made (wish they would add a Dumble) that you can choose 2 of,  one for each channel?

      • BigBob-Irwin Just Startin' 9 posts since
        Feb 11, 2012
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jan 14, 2013 7:21 AM (in response to ivylotus)
        Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

        No Problem just wanted to put my 2 pence worth in as how I see the amp. I can see where your coming from with Line 6 not getting there stuff together just hope that you did not send the amp back because you were mad at Line 6 but what the amp could do or not do for you. At the moment I have mine set up with the twin on the A channel with the mid turned way up and the treble turned down a bit for the closest I can get to a dumble sound and the Plexi on the B channel with a Joyo ultimate drive (OCD clone) and Joyo vintage overdrive(Tube Screamer clone) plus a vox wah in the front end this gets me pretty close to what I want at a gig.

        I do hope L6 comes out with a Dumble style amp model soon though as I can see me going for a Fuchs Blackjack 21 MkII head. I do have the Pod HD 500 and can use that via the link but as yet prefer the amp and pedals by themselves as I can not seem to get quite the same with the pod with or without the pedals and anyway I spend endless hours chasing my tail trying to get the tone in my head by programming the Pod with the DT kind of what I used to do when I was into hifi years ago i.e put all the expensive cartridges amp and record deck together only to get annoyed at the static and scratches on the record instead of listening to the music. Good luck with whatever Amp you choose

  • pauliusmm Just Startin' 24 posts since
    Jan 28, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 15, 2013 7:30 PM (in response to ivylotus)
    Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...

    I think mine goes back to Thomann. Its a pretty nice amp, but i also have Axe Fx II and i like it better.

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