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455 Views 36 Replies Latest reply: Mar 15, 2013 9:51 AM by amx05462 RSS
deidelberg Just Startin'
deidelberg
30 posts since
May 4, 2007
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Jan 28, 2013 1:33 PM

How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

I acquired a barely touched Variax 600 this year and ended up buying a barely touched Variax 700 electric in order to get the usb interface (worth it...).  Both guitars have sat most of their lives.  Both worked fine when I first got them.  I updated the software, made a few custom patches on workbench, and then the d string on the 700 started having problems (didn't play them really before the update or tweaking) and then the low e on the 600.  I'm mainly working with the 700.  When it acts up (either low volume, no volume, or crackling distortion etc...) I can tap the piezo and it will work again until it does it again.

 

Again, these guitars have barely been used.  They are in extremely clean, unabused, condition.  There has been no trauma to the guitars.  The prior owners had no issues with them. 

 

Are the piezos themselves just crapping out for no reason?  Is this normal?  Have you experienced this?  Can non-use be an issue?

 

Any thoughts or suggestions?  I wish I played with them a lot more before updating the software as I cannot eliminate that as the cause.

 

 

Thanks

  • clay-man Just Startin'
    clay-man
    155 posts since
    Nov 20, 2009
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    Jan 29, 2013 12:48 AM (in response to deidelberg)
    Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

    Hey buddy, I just got a 600 not even a month ago from ebay and I had this exact problem with my D string.

    It scares, THE ****, out of me when it happens. Sorry to be vulgar, but I need to express myself here.

     

    But anyways, it scares me, makes me stomach turn really bad when it happens, since I just spent money I never get on what I wanted to be my halfway dream guitar, and it's already messing up on me.

     

    I've seen threads about people complaining about this problem, and the solution is to either clean the piezo with contact cleaner (I'm not sure where exactly, I guess the whole physical part when you pop it out of the saddle a little bit?) because the piezos can sometimes have grounding problems.

     

    I'm really REALLY hoping that's the more common reason, and that our piezos are just dying.

     

    If your piezo is dying, You can contact LR baggs and they'll mail you a new one for $15 plus shipping, After that, you have to remove the bridge and then desolder the old piezo and then solder the new piezo in. Line 6 says it's suggested that you let one of their authorized repair shops do it, but that'll cost even more, so if you know how to solder, then do it yourself.

     

     

    My personal experience:

    For right now, my piezo has stopped malfunctioning, as it mostly did it when I used the tremelo, so I removed it for now until I can find a solution. I basically messed with it via tapping the piezo and moving the wire under it's saddle until it stopped.

     

    Anyways I wish you luck, cause I can definitely sympathize with you.

  • haule Just Startin'
    haule
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    Jan 29, 2013 8:11 AM (in response to deidelberg)
    Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

    Hi, I have had problems with low E-string piezo (variax700), it started buzzing(distorted) without any reason and the volume went also very weak.The problem went away and came back again so I sent it back to retailer and they sent it to factory. It came back from the factory and they found nothing wrong with it, tested several hours. I found out that the buzz goes away when I tap the tremolo (bridge) a bit. I just hope that I would have read this forum before sending it to retailer! It was sent from europe to China and back for nothing lol. At least they could have changed the piezo... Lots of variax owners seem to have same kind of problems! It's a bit frustating and I wouldnt use my variax at a gig without changing the piezo! Hope you get yours working!

    • amx05462 Power User
      amx05462
      3,495 posts since
      Sep 1, 2008
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      Feb 2, 2013 7:38 AM (in response to haule)
      Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

      in most cases  its   either  a grounding  issue  or   a bad  solder joint  on the pcb  board  under the  tremelo.  or bridge  plate. in some cases   the piezo just goes  bad.

       

      a perminant  fix  is to replace  the pickups  with  graphtech  pickups.

      • clay-man Just Startin'
        clay-man
        155 posts since
        Nov 20, 2009
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        Feb 3, 2013 4:47 AM (in response to amx05462)
        Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

        Thank you a bunch.

        Can you tell me how the piezos ground though? Just by contact against the bridge?
        Like I said, someone said to clean the piezo because of grounding issues so I'm assuming that's how it does grounding, because the piezo's wire just has a signal wire, not a ground wire too.

        • amx05462 Power User
          amx05462
          3,495 posts since
          Sep 1, 2008
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          Feb 3, 2013 6:16 AM (in response to clay-man)
          Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

          exactly..  and its a poor  system  they have the pickup contact grounding to the saddle   and the saddle  grounding to the bridge  plate.   and the bridge  plate  to the  main board  through the  harness.    the 300  has a actual  wire  harness  .  the other  3  have a ribbon cable. so  the 300  is best in that respect.

           

          alot  of the  pickups   get stuff between them and  the  saddle  and loose  ground..

           

          the  graphtech pickups  have an actual ground  wire.

          • amx05462 Power User
            amx05462
            3,495 posts since
            Sep 1, 2008
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            Feb 3, 2013 6:18 AM (in response to amx05462)
            Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

            what i did  with mine to keep them  working  was to  spray contact  cleaner  all round the  edges  of the  pickup.  but that only lasts  so long.  thats why i went  with the  graph techs.

            • clay-man Just Startin'
              clay-man
              155 posts since
              Nov 20, 2009
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              Feb 4, 2013 8:38 AM (in response to amx05462)
              Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

              I'm hoping that's what mine has. I really can't afford to get mine repaired, because I JUST blew all my money buying it in the first place!!

               

              Mine started doing it during intonation adjustment, so I'm assuming it's either a grounding issue or soldering issue. I assume if it was a soldering issue it would cut out completely instead of quieting/being noisy though.

              • amx05462 Power User
                amx05462
                3,495 posts since
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                Feb 4, 2013 8:44 AM (in response to clay-man)
                Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

                back up that saddle  to take  tension off the  connecting  wire.    they dont leave you much  so if  your  at its  full length   the  intonation ajustment  may just be pulling  on a poor  solder   joint.  if  it starts  working  right  then id    resolder  that  joint  on the pcb under the bridge.

                • clay-man Just Startin'
                  clay-man
                  155 posts since
                  Nov 20, 2009
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                  Feb 5, 2013 10:06 AM (in response to amx05462)
                  Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

                  It first started when I did back it up. I tapped the piezo and it stopped, then the next day it came back and I pushed the wire back into the bridge and it stopped. It came back once again and I did some tapping and moving of the wire, and it mostly started doing it even more when I used the tremelo.

                   

                  This is a 600 version by the way, so would it also have the ribbon PCB thing on the back onf the bridge?

                   

                  Like I said, it doesn't cut out completely, but gets very quiet compared to the other strings, and makes a lot of noise.

                   

                  So far I removed my tremelo, in fear of it cutting out again. I used some rubbing alcohol on the front of the piezo one day and wiped it dry. I also changed strings and it didn't start cutting out either (It cutted out when I detuned that string which is the D string). So far it's good, but I'm still really uncomfortable with using the tremelo so I don't. I don't think I'll try anything risky until I can either afford a solder kit, better contact cleaner, or a whole new piezo from LR Baggs.

                   

                  I want to thank you for your posts though, because it helps me realize my situation isn't THAT deadly as I thought. It really made my stomach twist to discover my brand new guitar might be crapping out on me.

                • clay-man Just Startin'
                  clay-man
                  155 posts since
                  Nov 20, 2009
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                  Feb 15, 2013 12:45 PM (in response to amx05462)
                  Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

                  Hi. So I changed strings yesterday, and I tested the tremelo again and it started cutting out again.

                  I'm officially using it as a hardtail until I can fix the problem.

                   

                  I noticed that the PCB board for the solder joints of the peizo is on the tremelo block. The D string piezo lies right above the connector that connects the motherboard of the Variax to the PCB for the piezo elements.

                   

                  Is it safe to assume I probably have a solder problem if it keeps going out when using the tremelo?

                  I had to tap it a bit again and tap the wire to get it to stop cutting out.

                   

                  Do you think a Line 6 authorized repair shop could fix it for me?

                  • amx05462 Power User
                    amx05462
                    3,495 posts since
                    Sep 1, 2008
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                    Feb 15, 2013 1:25 PM (in response to clay-man)
                    Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

                    sounds  like that is  what it  is.   either that  or the  sticky tape in between   is  drying out  an  when you use the tremelo the    pcb is moving  slightly  causing a groundin  situation.    yes  i think if you could  get it to a l6 service  shop they  might  fix it  for  you. otoh if you  can sloder at all and this is the case  then its a matter  of  just rheating the solder  joint  and letting  it cool.  but another  problem is  that   if the wire  at the pickup itself  is pulling  out  youll get the  same  situation.     so  if your  not  sure   of  what your doing id   suggest  you contact  line  6 about  repairs.

                    • clay-man Just Startin'
                      clay-man
                      155 posts since
                      Nov 20, 2009
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                      Feb 16, 2013 12:49 PM (in response to amx05462)
                      Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

                      I've messed and fixed random electroncis since I was a kid, but for a 500 guitar I'm a bit nervous.

                      I know I have to take out the bridge, but unless the tremolo block is connected to it, I'm afraid of pulling the piezo wires.

                       

                      Also, I'm starting to think maybe it is a grounding issue instead. Wouldn't the sound COMPLETELY cut out if it was a wire problem? If the wire to the piezo is being disconnected on and off, then it shouldn't send any signal.

                       

                      I might try to purchase contact cleaner first.

                       

                      After that, I'd probably purchase a piezo element, even if it's not the problem (I want a backup if one ever really dies) and either disassemble it myself or take it to the shop and tell them about it so they can fix it.

                       

                       

                      I want to thank you for your posts though, they are very informative and is nice to know that it's repairable.

                       

                      Edit: The piezo seems to be back to messing up a lot, I guess I knocked it out of a sweet spot when I used the tremelo again, because it was working fine for almost a month. Here's to hoping I find jiggle it back to a more stable spot again.

  • clay-man Just Startin'
    clay-man
    155 posts since
    Nov 20, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2013 11:32 AM (in response to deidelberg)
    Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

    Evidence seems to slowly, slowly be pointing towards a bad piezo elements. I really don't know, but the fact that I tapping the piezo mostly fixes the problem leads to me thinking that.

     

    I'm going to buy an element from LR Baggs, regardless of if it's the problem or not so I can at least have a backup.

     

    It's really frustrating when it's hard to troubleshoot.

  • clay-man Just Startin'
    clay-man
    155 posts since
    Nov 20, 2009
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    Feb 25, 2013 4:32 PM (in response to deidelberg)
    Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

    Ordered an X insert from LR baggs. They said it's a little different, hopefully not too much or I might have to eventually replace all the piezos (I don't have money for that).

    The guy says I can adjust string volume in workbench, but I don't think I can do that can I? I only saw output adjustment but not string volume adjustment.

    • amx05462 Power User
      amx05462
      3,495 posts since
      Sep 1, 2008
      Currently Being Moderated
      Feb 26, 2013 4:43 AM (in response to clay-man)
      Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

      there  one in the same . hes just putting it  in his  words.    string output   and  string  volume  mean the same thing and  there   individually ajustable  with  work bench.

       

      wheni put the  graph tech pickups  in my 300  i had to do this  because the person who  had  owned  the guitar before  me    had apparently been  compensating   for   failing  pickups.

      • clay-man Just Startin'
        clay-man
        155 posts since
        Nov 20, 2009
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        Feb 26, 2013 8:47 AM (in response to amx05462)
        Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

        The x inserts are the same? He said something about Line 6 doing something to mass produce their piezo elements.

        I have a feeling it will be barely different anyway.

         

        How do I individually adjust each string level? I can't find it in workbench.

        Edit: Ohhh I think I see it. String volumes on guitar?

         

        Oh man thank god, if it is different then I really can adjust the volumes.

        The guy on the phone was really informative and seemed to know a lot about the variax stuff.

        I really thought the string volume thing was limited to other Variaxes, like the bass model.

        • amx05462 Power User
          amx05462
          3,495 posts since
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          Feb 26, 2013 8:47 AM (in response to clay-man)
          Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

          youll have to read  the  instructions  i havent  used  workbench in quite a  while  and its  not even on my current  computer.   but  i did  have to do this   so  its somewhere  inthe  program  try going through the drop down menus  one at a time.  i would guess that it  would be in the same  area that allows  pickup osition movement.

          • clay-man Just Startin'
            clay-man
            155 posts since
            Nov 20, 2009
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            Feb 26, 2013 8:50 AM (in response to amx05462)
            Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

            It was hiding in the menu for Editor.

             

            + Points for Line 6. I could honestly just boost my crappy piezo element when it gets quiet, but it always cuts in and out.

            • amx05462 Power User
              amx05462
              3,495 posts since
              Sep 1, 2008
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              Feb 26, 2013 9:15 AM (in response to clay-man)
              Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

              well  again the cutting  out is  either  a break in ground  or  like  mine   the wire  right in the back of the pickup had been pulled  some what loose. or  in another  case a poor  solder  joint

               

              if its  ground  they ground  throughthe  chromed  case to the saddle they sit  in to the  bridge  plate  all contact grounds   based  on  string  tension.  yes  a poor system. the fix icame up for this way back was contact cleaner  sprayed  around the pickup while  in the saddle.   mythoughts  were   like  myself  alot of people  sometimes  rest  the  side  of there  hand  on the bridge  when playing  and the  natural oils  and  whatever  else  may be  on  your  hands  could  get in the  gap between    the pickup and sadle  eventually breaking  ground.   this  fix  worked  for alot  of people. as to the pulled  out  wire   your  guitar i believe  is a 700 with tremelo so it  most likely doesnt  apply to you  but   in the  300 ..any strings   being  removed   or   put on the guitar  have to go through  the cavity  below the  bridge  plate  from the backof the guitar    then through the pcb board  itself  ( that was ral genious  on line  6  part now  wasnt  it.) then  through the  holes  in the bridge  plate.  now  the screw  holding the pcb in place    does tend to losen  over  time.. 1) cousing the  pcb to get misaligned  and  also allowing  ore tension on the tiny pickup wire.  2) posssibly allowing the end ot the  string  being  either  removed  or   put in to the guitar  to possibly pullon the pickup   wires.. also loosening the ground   fpr the pcb which is     a circular contact the  screw  goes  through. again this is  not the case with the  700   as much  like any fender  style   tremelo guitar  the strings  go through  the tone block on the bottomof the trem plate.. i am however thinking    the  wire still could be   just hanging on to the back of your  pickup or the first  issue  i pointed  out  here.     i had tried to  fix the wire on the backof  one  of my pickups  its  virtually impossible  as its all encased  in some   composite   that  seals the pickup. i know  money is tight   but again i suggest you give some thought  to   graphtech pickups.   for one thing  .. they have a ground  wire.vs  that   system  lr baggs  uses   . yeah there  around 100 bucks  us  but .  i can tell you that is the  price  of being  trouble free in that area  of your  guitar.

               

                why is  line  6  still using    lrbaggs  pickups  if the  graph tech ones are  so much better? my guess would be    contract obligations.  maybe  a better  volume   price from lr baggs.

              • clay-man Just Startin'
                clay-man
                155 posts since
                Nov 20, 2009
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                Feb 26, 2013 9:40 AM (in response to amx05462)
                Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

                I have a 600. Same thing but with a Strat body/interface and maple neck.

                 

                I doubt the ground wire going to the bridge is the problem, or else wouldn't all the pickups cut out? I used rubbing alcohol to try to clean the piezo and bridge, but that's a poor substitute for contact cleaner. You're correct about people laying their hands on the bridge though. I sometimes use it as a reference point when picking, and palm muting sometimes leads to contact with the bridge.

                I could maybe put some tape over the bridge to avoid sweat getting in it, but that might mute up the pickups, I'm not sure.

                 

                I'm sure it is a grounding issue though. Like I said, if the signal wire of the pickup was the problem, the signal would cut out, not get quiet, I'm sure.

                 

                For the graph tech, I agree that it's a good idea, but I don't have a job, and I'm lucky to even have this guitar, so right now the best I can do is the LR baggs pickups.

                 

                 

                When I use a tremelo, that's it cuts out a WHOLE lot. Also when I tune down the string, it likes to cut out. I think the string's tension is securing the contact of the piezo and the bridge, but it also likes to cut out when I push down on the piezo a tiny bit hard.

                • amx05462 Power User
                  amx05462
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                  Sep 1, 2008
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                  Feb 26, 2013 12:11 PM (in response to clay-man)
                  Re: How Many Have Had Piezo Elements in Variax 300-700 Fail for No Apparent Reason?

                  true. i was just pointing out that  on my 300 where  the  pcb was grounded  is   where the screw  holding the  pcb board in place  is.  as to the rubbing  alcohol.  yes that would  break up anything  in there  but it does  nothing to get anything   out. the contact  cleaner  is under  pressure and will blow out anything  that is  in there.  btw  when  and if you do replace  that pickup  youll notice theres a small spring  under  it.   well  at least my 300 had them   so there  supposed  to be somewhat floating  in the  saddle. if they dont  move a  little bit in the saddle thats a god indication to me that  there   is  some  stuff  in there.

                   

                  the  problem with the  tape  is   the  glue will deteriorate  and end  up in there  as well making  matters  worse. well thats   what i was  having trouble  with and   found  one  pickup hanging  on by one  of the  braded wires  at the pickup end  and another  loose  on a solder  joint. at that point  and taking  into the  consideration  fo how the  strings  went   right through the pcb  on mine i decided  graphtech was the way to go.   and  never  regretted   the decision. in my case  i also  gave an idea to rich renkin  about  tube  guides  for the  hard tail versions   of the  variax   so people  wouldnt  be   pulling  wires  loose.  dont  know  if they ever  used  it though .  that was during  the  lengthy discussions  on the   future  of   the variax  and the  upcoming  next gen guitars..

                   

                    from your  last parragraph    i would think that when you push the tremelo down your  decreasing  tension   thus   giving  the pickup a chance to loose  what little  ground  it  has tuning  down does the  same. but... pushing  down  onthe  piezo  should   make it  ground  better  not  worse    so  i would   again  look at the  back of  it.   remember    if the  wire  is coming  loose  there  or is  partially  broken . you  have  exposed   hot  wire   and  in this case  as you describe  it.   ...by pushing  down you could be causing  it to  short  out  to the  saddle.

                   

                    as to your being  out  of  work.. im sorry to hear that  ive been out of  work going  on 8 months  now  my self   so i know  how you feel.  im not  spending a penny i dont  have  to .  so best of luck on that as well..       keep the graphtechs  in mind  for the  future  then.   i wouldnt  do a thing  until  you get the new  pickup in  .

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