Currently Being ModeratedApr 11, 2012 4:28 PM (in response to aeugle)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Not sure if these are going to be "exact", but they're HD500 patches that use the correct amp models for Topologies I-IV on the DT Series Amps... hope these give you a good starting point.
Currently Being ModeratedApr 12, 2012 3:47 AM (in response to Kneehow)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
thanks a lot, this may help indeed, but I asked these experts which stated that both configuration sound exatly the same.
And they did lot of A/B comparisons.
They should come up with their patches as a proof.
I could make it.
Currently Being ModeratedApr 13, 2012 4:06 AM (in response to aeugle)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
I cant 'prove' my HD500 DT-xx test patches will sound the same on your amp as your amp sounds stand-alone because I don't have access to your amp, so only you can prove or disprove that the HD500 + DT-xx can sound identical to your DT-xx stand-alone.
Here's one of a few methods you could use to test your HD500 + DT-xx settings against your DT-xx stand-alone:
DT-50 Stand Alone Amp Model:
Topology and HD Preamp:
· I: Fender Blackface Deluxe
· II: Brit P-75
· III: Vox AC30
· IV: Treadplate with voicing IV on amp
DT-25 Stand Alone Models:
Topology and HD Preamp:
· I: Fender BF DBL Vib
· II: Brit P-75
· III: Vox AC30
· IV: Treadplate with voicing IV on amp
Note 1: an L6 Link connected POD with patches including the TREADPLATE PRE will set the DT-xx Topology to III instead of IV as it is on the amp when used stand-alone
Note 2: following the recent update for the POD HD500 series to firmware version 2.02 and possible changes to the amp models (unknown) there may be a slight difference between the DT-xx PRE amp models and the POD PRE amp models which may alter the sound slightly.
This is what I would personally do to get the HD-500 + D-xx amp to sound the same as the DT-xx amp in stand-alone mode.
Note that all amp models and settings on your POD have to be as near identical as the settings on the DT-xx as possible for this to work, otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.
- 2. Set the Topology to I, II, III or IV on channel A on your DT-xx. For this example I’d suggest Topology II Brit P-75
- 3. Set the Drive Bass, Mid, Treble, Presence and Channel Volume so you get the sound how you like it on the amp. Keep the Reverb control on the amp at 0% as it’s independent of the POD
- 4. Once happy, on your HD500 or POD HD Pro, select a blank patch and add ONLY the Brit P-75 model. Turn cab modelling to No Cab.
- 5. Be careful not to move the controls on the front panel of your amp
- 6. Connect your POD to your DT-xx using L6-Link.
- 7. The amp is now under the control of the POD and the POD’s default control settings will over-ride the amp’s physical settings.
- 8. You need to get the POD to register the same settings as the amp’s controls are set to.
- 9. Move each control knob on the amp’s front panel the tiniest amount and back to the original position to register the new settings in the POD.
- 10. Save the patch in your POD
- 11. Plug your guitar into your POD without changing any settings and try the patch.
- 12. A/B the DT-xx and POD variants of the amp model.
- 13. The main things to watch out for are a) the different amp models in use for Topology I between the DT-25 and DT-50, and; b) that some of the high gain amp models (typically Treadplate) are set by default to use Topology III in the POD where it’s Topology IV by default on the amp stand-alone, so you must ensure your apples-to-apples test patch in the POD has its default topology set to the same as the topology on the amp stand-alone.
That should work for you, but because of the differences that might now exist between the PRE models in the DT-xx because of its older firmware and the appropriate PRE models in the latest POD firmware version 2.02 and above, you may notice a slight discrepancy in tone.
I cannot give any assurances or guarantees but the method above worked well for me.
Providing patches to ‘prove’ any of this is not possible or valid, because the amp controls on other users’ systems are not available to me to ensure that both the POD HD patch settings and stand- alone amp settings are consistent. Only the end user has control of that.
Apologies for any text formatting issues. I created the main section in Microsoft Word 2010 and copied into the forum editor.
Currently Being ModeratedApr 13, 2012 6:04 AM (in response to Nick_Mattocks)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
thanks for your answer.
so let me summarize:
I have a DT25 and extension cabinett.
So your advice is:
- Use " pre models"
- Use "Brit P-75 norm pre" not "Brit P-75 brt pre"
- Use "no cab" with the models
- Set HD500 to stack power amp (or combo?)
Am I right?
Currently Being ModeratedApr 13, 2012 7:32 AM (in response to aeugle)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Sorry. Always use PRE models when using them in the POD with a DT-xx. Now, the Brt and Norm variants in my example came later than the current DT amp versions, but I believe the Brt PRE model is the same as the model used in the DT-xx but that does need checking to be absolutely certain.
I should probably have picked a different amp model for the example
If your DT-25 is a combo the output mode in the HD500 will be automatically set to Combo Pwr Amp too Stack Pwr Amp if you have the head and cab
Personally I would turn off cab modelling on the HD500 patch but that's just a matter of personal taste. Try with cab modelling on which will use 'live' versions of the cabs or off to see which works best. I'll try and find out which Brit-P75 model is in place in the DT series amps currently as that is quite important to know when you're trying to compare.
Currently Being ModeratedApr 13, 2012 8:32 AM (in response to Nick_Mattocks)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
I think the DT amps have the Park BRT model as the NRM model was only added in 1.3
I wonder if the DTs could be updated in the future to model the Plexi in standalone mode? I think the Plexi is fantastic.
Currently Being ModeratedApr 13, 2012 10:12 AM (in response to Pezza)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Today I had some time to compare.
It is definitively the P-75 BRT model.
@Nick: I found out that for comparison it is very sensitive to small changes in the EQ settings.
thanks a lot
Currently Being ModeratedApr 24, 2012 12:23 PM (in response to Pezza)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
I think the DT amps have the Park BRT model as the NRM model was only added in 1.3
I wonder if the DTs could be updated in the future to model the Plexi in standalone mode? I think the Plexi is fantastic.
I grew up playing guitar through a real Marshall 50w Plexi head with a Les Paul plugged in.
This might be way too much, but if Line 6 wished to model a plexi head, then it should not be just one or even two versions. Brt or Nrm.
The whole point of the head was to put all toen knobs on 10, not 11, but 10, then depending on if you were plugging in a Fender guitar which are much thinner and brighter sounding, or a Les Paul which is much darker than a Fender. Yes there were may other guitar models back when this head first came out, but the vast majority of performers had one brand or the other.
For those of use with LPs...
- you jumped the the Low gain input I to the High input gain of II and daisy chain heads in the same pattern from there.
- Fender players did the opposite...Plug guitar into high gain input II then jump low gain input II into high gain input I.
- Both used the Volume controls to dial in your final over all tone. And I have no doubt that many also adjusted the actual tone knobs although for my purposes, just the two volume controls controlling highs, on Vol I and lows on Vol II was enough to ge the sound I wanted.
- The biggest problem was the amp was too loud in this configuration.
Wouldn't it be amazing if Line 6 tech could develop all of these parameters that the real head used to have?
I used to leave the cabinet cover that came with my 8x10 Marshall cab on and stick an SM57 microphone vertically inside to pick up just one of the bottom speakers. Later with louder stage bands, I used several small holes cut into the cabinet cover to allow just enough volume through to be loud enough.
Other had their own resolutions to this volume including putting a simple volume control on the back of the head to control the overall volume into the cabinet. Plus you also had to physically dial the head to the correct impedance. But dialing a higher impedance like 16 ohms while actually pulling 8 or even 4 ohms got some fantastic tone before blowing up the output. And there was the "good old standby trick" of removing one of the output tubes or two if you had a 100 watt head and let the amp overdrive half the output tubes it should have had to get an incredibly saturated sound before the output tube fried. The good old days of pure analog and the things you could do to get "new" sounds.
Wouldn't it also be amazing if Line 6 tech could figure out how to give all these multiple pick-up guitars enough physical controls like two vols/two tone and pick-up switch for blending both the bridge and neck pick-up without having to build a fixed version in Workbench? Perhaps mini toggle switches? Push/Pull knobs?
Currently Being ModeratedFeb 27, 2013 11:01 AM (in response to Nick_Mattocks)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
i have followed these instructions exactly, and there is a huge difference. i set all knobs at 12, apart from the channel volume which is at ma, and master at 1-2. guitar direct into the amp is much louder, i ned to back the channel volume off to 11oclock to get in same ballpark, and there is still a lot more drive. any suggestions?
Currently Being ModeratedApr 16, 2012 1:57 PM (in response to aeugle)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
I suggest the following to get the results you are looking for...
- L6 Link to the DT25 from the POD HD500
- Call up a Blank bank of patches. Since they are grouped in sets of four, this should work out perfectly for your desired results.
- Starting with bank # ?? on patch A…How about Bank 1 – patches A thru D? Good as any if you don’t have any preference?
- You should see nothing but dots across the signal chain plus one larger black box (where an amp would be), and the Mixer. Perhaps even the looper depending how you chose your display set up.
- Put the arrow over the larger black box, and then double tap quickly the Enter button tab on your HD500 unit.
- For topology 1, choose any Fender full model amp, not just the pre version.
- Once chosen, Click view to return back.
- With the new amp still with the arrow over it - double tap quickly the Enter tab.
- Now you should see two rows of controls. Both rows with the exact dials as on the DT25 amp.
- You will be now controlling only Channel 1 which is the only channel you will gain control over the 4 topologies.
- Adjust the setting on the top row only for now. This will produce the Topology 1 sound you want.
- Be sure to save to settings by using the save tab on the unit.
- Once accomplished, then go to Patch B and repeat steps 5 through 12. Except this time, choose any of the Marshall (Brit) full amps to create Topology II. This probably has the widest variety of difference between just the Marshall amps. Choose the JTM-45 if you want less input gain or J-800 if you want the most gain from the Marshall amps modeled. Or my personal favorite, the Plexi Lead 100 Brt, for a terrific middle ground between input gain and classic British tonality. you can always put an overdrive or even a full distortion pedal in your signal chain once you've gotten the topologies you wish to have control over.
- Using Patch C for topology III repeat steps 5 - 12 except choose the Bogner (Bomber Uber) Full amp.
- Using Patch D for topology IV repeat steps 5-12 except choose the Engl (Angel F-Ball) Full amp.
Lastly - you need to do the following to get the utmost from the DT25 amp you have...
- After tweaking and dialing in the sound you want to come from all four topologies on channel A of the DT25 amp, you then must set Channel B to what you want all the time from that channel. You can go to a screaming lead sound with tons of gain or to a crystal clean sound with little or no overdriven sound at all. This is your amp, your sounds.
- With this set up - you actually have five amps.
- Two will have the same topology, but you will be making these channel B choices physically on the DT25 amp itself. Once you set them, they must not get moved or it will change the sound from that channel. Just double check that channels settings before you begin to play and you'll always have the five amps you've chosen to use.
To access Channel B you must do the following for all four of your A-D Amp patches.
- Highlight the amp one each of your A, B, C, & D patches - one at a time of course.
- HOLD DOWN the ENTER Tab, and now you will see an "FS#" or perhaps "None"
- Assign this to FS8 which is the last Footswitch button next to the Pedal. This is the FS # I always use, your choice is your choice, but I've found that keeping it the same, is much less confusing in a live performance situation trying to remember where the control for something is. As you add FX, this will become easy to understand why. My choice is my choice, but you can use any of the footswitches, or even you can use the Toe Switch on the pedal. I don't do this because I use that pedal for controlling volume most of the time , but these are choices for you to make. The right choices are the ones you feel comfortable with, not anyone else's choices.
- Now that you have assign a FS to the amp, you now need to see what happens when you turn it off.
- The amp model shuts off - only the amp - and now you have a volume knob alone which setting can be saved with your patches. This volume knob controls the volume only of channel B on the DT25.
- Any other FX or pieces you've added to your signal chain will now be heard through that Channel B, unless you choose to assign that same FS switch to turn off or turn on any of the FX in your signal chain that you want to work with DT25 Amp channel B at the exact moment to switch to channel B on the DT25.
- You need to do this for each patch A thru D you create and keep in mind that whatever you choose for channel B, you can always have FX in front of the amp, or behind the amp using nothing more than the L6 Link to its fullest extent.
- For example, you can set up channel B to be very clean. You then could on one or more patches, have an overdrive or distortion pedal on immediately, or switch on when you want it. This goes for any effect in your signal chain you allow to work with Channel B.
- It's so flexible, I could write a book that would take up far too much more time than I have to give about al the choices you have in front of you with just these two pieces of Line 6 gear.
- You also could do all these things with the POD HD500 Edit software instead of on the HD500 unit itself and then save it to a Bundle or Set List that you can store and recall anytime you have the unit connected to your computer. You could start building your own library of patches.
I hope this small instruction guide helps you discover what your gear is capable of doing.
Take care and best of luck,
PS - if you like this guide and it does help you get what you're looking for. I'd appreciate it if you posted how this worked for you. I can't learn more unless others write back and let me know how my suggestions or instructions worked for them. Thanks.
I only made the choices I suggested based on the ease of use working with those amps getting a wide variety of tonal options.
I do agree that the Vox 30TB or the Vox 15 are also terrific choices for Topology III if you want less input gain choices and stick within that British invasion scope of sounds.
I am not suggesting that my amp choices for each topology are the only ones. There are many that use Mode I, and Mode III. Marshalls pretty much cover Mode II but are not the only choice in this mode. And Mode IV seems to be only used by the ENGL Fireball model. I think if Line 6 had more than just the Dual Rect Mesa verson, you would probably see mode IV with other Mesa models.
Okay - here is a complete list of what modes switch when using the default amp models...
- Fender (all models except the Tweed Bassman)
- HiWatt (this is surprising to me, but it's what it is.) I always thought HiWatt was more similar to a Marshall.
- PhD Motorway
- Supro - Pentode/Class A Output
- Marshall (all models)
- Fender Tweed B-Man (The original Marshall amp. True origin of the Marshall JTM-45 included at the bottom of this post.)
- Ampeg Flip Top Bass amp
- Vox 15 - Pentode/Class A Output
- Vox 30TB - Pentode/Class A Output
- Gibson 185 - Pentode/Class A Output
- Divided 9/15
- Mesa Dual Rec
- Line 6 Elektrik
- Engl Fireball
This is the complete list of every model amp on the latest upgrade 2.02 for the POD HD units. All topologies listed are the ones that come up before any user adjustments or changes. All amps are Pentode-Class A/B unless listed otherwise.
I hope this clears up any possible confusion to my amp suggestion in my tutorial. The amp choices are 100% at the users discretion.
Marshall History - the original JTM-45.... (artical taken from Wikipedia)
Jim Marshall thought he could produce a cheaper alternative to American-made guitar amplifiers, but he had limited experience as an electrical engineer. He enlisted the help of his shop repairman Ken Bran and an EMI technician named Dudley Craven, and between them they decided they most liked the sound of the 4x10" Fender Bassman. They made several prototypes using the Fender Bassman amp as a model. The sixth prototype produced, in Jim's words, the "Marshall Sound".
The first few production units almost copied the Bassman circuit, with American military surplus 5881 power valves, a relative of the 6L6. Speakers were then rarely able to handle more than 15 watts, which meant that an amplifier approaching 50 watts had to use four speakers. For their Bassman, Fender used four Jensen speakers in the same cabinet as the amplifier, but Marshall chose to separate the amplifier from the speakers, and placed four 12-inch Celestion speakers in a separate closed-back cabinet instead of the four 10-inch Jensens in an open-back combo. Other crucial differences were the use of higher-gain ECC83 valves throughout the preamp, and the introduction of a capacitor/resistor filter after the volume control. These circuit changes gave the amp more gain so that it broke into overdrive sooner on the volume control than the Bassman, and boosted the treble frequencies. This new amplifier, tentatively called the "Mark II", was eventually named the "JTM 45," after Jim and his son Terry Marshall and the max. wattage of the amplifier. Note: the actual wattage of the JTM-45 is 30 watts.
Currently Being ModeratedApr 19, 2012 7:20 AM (in response to aeugle)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
I own my hd500/dt50 for 2 month ago. If found DT50 sounds better than the pod pre amp models. I've read and post many messages in the forum, and everybody tell me the pod pre amp are the same. I spend many hours to configure my pod presets, but they still sound smaller, weaker than the DT50. My friends are agree, it's not my ears. I think the pod processor can't sound exactly as the dt50 amp.
Line6, your amp is so great, but we can't use it the way we want. Please update the pod hd 500 to control the entire DT50.
Currently Being ModeratedApr 20, 2012 7:49 AM (in response to aeugle)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
As regards trying to get the same sound out of the HD + DT as opposed to DT alone, I think people are missing the point slightly with matching tone knob setting etc. Obviously you want to match the amp model, voicing/topology and volume settings, but that's the easy bit. What about the settings which aren't selectable on the DT but are on the HD?
I'm thinking of:
Input settings - setting input 2 to 'same' or 'variax'
Output settings - Direct/studio, combo pwr amp etc.
From what I've found I get a much better likeness using input 2 set to 'same'. I was an ardent input 2 'variax' user but having gone back to 'same' after recent posts I think it's way better. Maybe L6 changed things in the last couple of updates.
It's fairly safe to assume the DT impedance is 1m ohm as all amp models are set to that. If you were using 270k it wouldn't sound as bright as the DT standalone.
Cab settings - I think the DT does use the default cab for the amp rather than 'no cab'
If using 'no cab' the output settings would have little or no effect, but I think they are used. It would make sense as the single speaker configurations have a relatively transparent speaker.
Output settings obviously depend on your configuration but the studio/direct sounds very different/wrong to me. I suppose the DT head might internally have the stack pwramp setting and the DT combo have combo pwr amp setting but I think this might be the area of difference. I prefer combo pwr with my DT25 head/HD500 as I'm using an openback Vetta 2x12 cab. I don't get any option in standalone mode - but it still sounds great!
Mixer settings should probably be on 0.
I may be barking up the wrong tree but I've got my HD500/DT25 setup sounding near enough to DT25 standalone quality to make me happy anyway.
Currently Being ModeratedApr 24, 2012 11:36 PM (in response to Pezza)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
In fact I don't think difference comes from the configuration. Pod HD 500 in my DT50 sounds "numeric", thin... I don't know how to describe it.
DT 50 stand alone sounds like a real amp. That's the reason why I would like to bypass the pod pre amp model and use it just like a midi controler and a mult effect. I don't know if it's possible, please tell me how.
Currently Being ModeratedJun 24, 2012 9:39 AM (in response to aeugle)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
I seem to be having the same problem as a lot of people on here; I bought the DT25 and the HD500 on the strength of the sound of the DT25 and the idea of being able to control that sound transparently using the HD500. I've read so many posts with varying ideas about how to go about this and nothing I've tried gets the same sound using the L6 link as running straight into the DT25, Why can't Line 6 explain what settings the DT25 uses so that we can recreate those on HD500, my gut feeling is that they haven't because it can''t and that there is something fundamentally different about them.
I bought this amp because it's the best sounding valve amp I've ever played but it's so frustrating not to be able to use it as I envisaged. I'm now looking at using it as a multi FX but then I'm going to have to run an annoying ammount of cables across the stage in order to run some FX in the loop and some in front of the amp.
Willl someone from Line 6 please comment on this issue?
Currently Being ModeratedJun 24, 2012 9:47 AM (in response to Leavon)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
there are many posts here explaining the things you have to do... even videos of others proving it possible.... best advice, seek those out...
line6 will never comment on a thread this old... and generally wouldn't get wrapped up in a mostly subjective tonequest besides....
Currently Being ModeratedJun 25, 2012 4:33 AM (in response to TheRealZap)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
It is absolutly not understandable and disaapointing why there is no official statement from Line6.
The only reasons is that Line6 want or have to "hide" something negative. It is not because the thread is old.
If there exists an easy or logical way to control the DT25 via HD500 behaving soundwise like stand alone Line 6 would have told.
Ok the really good experts here try to calm done the user community by 100s of answers work around and ideas.
Maybe one time the customer community is so loud that Line 6 have to react.
Currently Being ModeratedJul 15, 2012 4:15 PM (in response to aeugle)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
it's not an attempt to calm anyone down... it's the truth... and i don't feel like holding your's or anyone elses hands through the process of sorting it out... when there are many resources already on the forum...
nobodoy is hiding anything relevent to this...
Currently Being ModeratedJul 15, 2012 7:27 AM (in response to TheRealZap)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Please I am having troubles with the changes of voicings via midi CCs.
In a nutshell, ... the amp lights change but the sound dont!
Really strange.... The drive knob seems to dont work either.
I am using a GSC-3 controller, and set the CC# and values acordingly to the chart provided by Line 6 Manuals.
If you have any suggestion I appreciate.
Currently Being ModeratedJul 19, 2012 12:42 AM (in response to aeugle)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
I got my two dt25 heads and cabs yesterday, I did a test pluging
Direct into one and the other one using my Pod Hd Pro and line6 link.
I'm not able to make them the same. The closest I'm able to get them is using twin vibe pre and turning of speaker sims. The documentation is not good, line6 clames they are the same.
Maby so, but they need to clear up how to set up the pod.
With or without cab sims etc...
Currently Being ModeratedJul 19, 2012 11:12 AM (in response to Nesheim)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Did some more extensive tests today:) I'm able to match the vocing 1 with my Pod HD Pro today using the Blackface twin vib pre. The trick is to turn of speaker sims. I've got two DT25 heads with matching cabs. This is the dream rig XL...
Currently Being ModeratedAug 31, 2012 7:12 AM (in response to LewisBrunton)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Does anyone find a way to make sound good DT50 with Pod HD 500 ?
I keep on reading post, trying different config, but still the same problem...
I can understand I do something wrong, but does anyone can tell me how to do, please ?
Currently Being ModeratedSep 1, 2012 2:54 AM (in response to kisscool82)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
I'm having exactly the same problem, I've had the DT25 and HD500 for a few months and I've read the solutions from the so called experts (who I found to be rude and condescending in response to this issue), posted on here, I've tried the different configurations of cab, no cab, wearing different coloured socks etc. and I cannot get the HD500 to sound the same as the DT25. The DT25 just sounds much livelier in standalone whereas the HD500 has an artificial quality to it. There is obviously an issue here otherwise this question wouldn't be posed so often and the view count on this thread wouldn't be so high. Experts saying "it's been done so it must work" doesn't wash I'm afraid, who knows how good their ears are? To my ears they don't stack up.
I wish Line 6 would comment on this issue and at least post an official guide to setting up the HD500 to replicate the DT25.
Currently Being ModeratedSep 2, 2012 1:08 AM (in response to Leavon)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Unfortunately line6 never anwser on this forum.
I agree, Expert user say verfy often : "Line6 told it's sound the same, so it's sound the same" or "I hear no difference, you must have done something wrong". I want to believe that. But how can you do. Please explain us exactly how you configure you're pod please.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 11, 2013 8:39 AM (in response to Leavon)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
I spoke to a nice and knowledgeable line6 chap called Chris who confirmed for me that the preamp models in the hd500 are NOT the same as those in the dt25. Although they are modelling (roughly) the same amps, the models are not the same. This makes sense to me and confirms what my ears have been telling me all along. i'm happier now and can accept this explanation. its interesting tho that the previous line6 agent i spoke to tried to convince me of the exact opposite :/
to my ears at least, the dt25 models are superior, especially in regards to depth and clarity when you dig in with a lot of crunch or dist from the preamp. After upgrading the firmware, both the original and hd500 preamps should be available in the dt25 but i have not tried this yet.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 11, 2013 7:16 PM (in response to innovine)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
well i can 100% confirm for you that this chap named Chris is wrong.
the models are 100% the same... the implementation of them is a bit different, as obviously with the pods you have a huge unknown for how the models will be amplified...
no such unknowns with the DT amps... and the models are optimized for that... not different, just ran through the magic of the DT amp, in a way that is true to the amp being modeled.
if Chris's explanation made you warm, fuzzy, and happy... continue to believe it...
I have firsthand knowledge that he's simply incorrect.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 11, 2013 11:52 PM (in response to TheRealZap)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Can you please cite your source for that, to avoid sounding like 'some guy on the internet'.
There is no unknown on my hd500, the output is through the dt25 power stage, same as when the amp is running standalone. Unfortunately, fuzzy terms like "just ran through the magic of the dt amp in a way that is true to the amp being modeled[sic]" is not useful at all. Exactly what magic are we talking about here? The test case is that the preamp modelling is moved to the hd500 when using the link, there should be no other difference as the power amp, speaker and cab are common to both situations. I've tested every pod output option and toggled its cab modelling on and off, and my ears tell me (as do the official line6 support) that the preamp modelling on the hd500 is not the same. Close, but not the same. You, sir, are talking of warm fuzzy feelings and amp magic.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 12, 2013 4:40 AM (in response to innovine)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
My source is myself, I have beta tested the DT50, and the pod HD's and have worked directly with the internal guys creating the amp models at Line6.
I cannot and will not be any more specific, because I have signed a non-disclosure agreement and really can't say much else.
you don't have to believe me...
and honestly i use words like amp magic, because i'm not an engineer etc and it's a quick and easy way of saying there's more going on in there than i care to, or have the capacity to explain in detail. perhaps you would understand alot of the internal circuitry etc more than i do....
i focus on understanding the sound coming out, and what pleases my ears.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 12, 2013 5:07 AM (in response to TheRealZap)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
So can you provide me with a patch (no effects etc, just a simple amp block) that sounds the same as my guitar direct into the dt25?
I would be especially interested in Topology II, or the P-75 pre as it's supposed to be, as mine sound very different. I also notice differences with the fender clean but that is a lot more subtle. I haven't tried much with the other two yet.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 12, 2013 5:58 AM (in response to innovine)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
you probably just need to check the selected cabinets... that's where most people get lost... the DT amps do use emulated cabinets.
but no... unfortunately I don't have the time to honor such requests, as well as the fact that i specifically have a DT50 and not a DT25.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 12, 2013 6:54 AM (in response to TheRealZap)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
You might be on to something t_ere, lots of the advice has been to try this without the cab modelling. Any idea why the dt has cab modelling, since it has a cab anyway? I cant wait to get home and try this.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 12, 2013 7:03 AM (in response to innovine)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
it just has the cab modeling, because the native cab doesn't always fit with the model being used...
if you have the DT 2.0 update and one of the midi interfaces etc... you might be able to "see" what's going on a little better...
i can't recall the default cab models... but i do recall that they DO have them....
Currently Being ModeratedMar 12, 2013 10:02 AM (in response to TheRealZap)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Could not agree more with TheRealZap. I only tried to match the Type I on a DT25 and came to the conclusion that a BF Double Vibrato channel with Cab model is an exact match (as far as I can differentiate). But check yourself by setting up 2 simple tones: One with no preamp (will automatically select Channel B on DT25 and one with a BF Double Vibrato preamp + default Cab model (ER and Mic will be ignored). Set the tone stack controls on Channel B of the DT25 like you have the controls set on the BF Double preamp tone stack and A/B the effect by switching between the 2 tones. I did this a year ago, but I don't think anything relevant changed since then despite DT25 FW updates.
In regard to why Line 6 picked the Cab model to be on in the DT25 we can only guess: My favorite guess is that an HD500 FW update changed the HD Cab model so that it is sensitive to the type of Line 6 Cab you are actually using such that the outcome is an emulation of the selected Cab ... pretty wild, but possible via L6-Link. Whether this is true or not really does not matter. if you don't like what the Cab model does, just turn it off or pick another one.
Enjoy your HD500/DT25, I do ;-),
Currently Being ModeratedMar 12, 2013 11:51 AM (in response to MartinDorr)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
I've been toggling the amp block on and of, as you suggested, all along. And granted the bf vib is a pretty good match, close enough so i wouldnt worry. But have you tried the same with the topology 2? This is very different. The b-75 nrm pre (or was it the brght, i cant remember) is the closest, but it sounds pretty bad in comparison. I just went throug every cab model and the default is closest i think, but every single one of them sound squashed, lifeless and unclear. The dt25 top 2 sounds much more lush, deep, rich, high-def, howe_er you might describe it. I have all the knobs at 12 o clock apart from the master, so there is a bit of crunch in the sound. Just strumming a few chords is enough to hear the difference. Im talking mostly about a quality dference more than a tone one, the character is very much there, but the openness and fullness is not.
I seriously hope that i am missing some option or setting somewhere, because i am pretty unhappy with knowing that the amp can do much better, so much so that i am consi.ering sedding the pod and getting some p edals. I dont know how p ople can say these sound the same!! if anyone wants to send me a patch or describe the exact models for the british crunch topology 2 then id be happy to record an a/b which you can a/b with your own gear..
Currently Being ModeratedMar 12, 2013 1:37 PM (in response to innovine)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Really, you don't have to convince everyone that some tones sounds better to you straight through the amp.
You're not the only person who feels the way you do.
Certainly, there are some patches that sounds the same or better than the standalone amp can provide. But, I have tried many different things to use my HD500 to reproduce the Solo 100 Clean sound I hear straight from my DT50. I can't do it.
I keep trying, but regardless of what anyone tells me they hear, I know what I hear.
But, why argue about it? I can get the sound I want. I still use my HD500 for other sounds, and I occassionally try to get the Solo sound, but I love the sound of my amp.
So, why worry?
Currently Being ModeratedMar 12, 2013 10:58 PM (in response to theoptimizers)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
well, for one, i paid a lot of money for a good guitar and pickups, and now the amp too. I am satisfied with the sound of the amp alone, its flexiple and good sounding and has an appropriate balance between them.
however, a large part of the attraction was to be able to use it in connection with the hd500, and unfortunately i am not satisfied with the result. It seems i either need to use the poor sound of the hd500, or lose the tight connection and recall of patches. Bummer.
as there are a number of people saying that it works for them, and that they dont hear the same lifeless, sterile sound, i think they all cant be deaf. Which means that there is probably some as yet unidentified variaple or setting somewhere in the rig which is degrading the quality.
If so, its an easy fix to what is otherwise a rather large setup, sure, it might work for you, but for me, the tone is too degraded to use my hd500 to the point where i am wondering about getting rid of the hd500e but if its just an option somewhere... so yeah, its worth worrying about.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 12, 2013 2:03 PM (in response to innovine)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
you should check out the posts, from the very wise and dearly departed Nick Mattocks here: http://line6.com/support/thread/78717?tstart=60
of course it is clearly subjective... obviously...
Currently Being ModeratedMar 12, 2013 11:08 PM (in response to TheRealZap)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Thanks, i thought i'd seen all the threads on this but somehow missed that one. My test setup is exactly as described but with the latest hd500 firmare, ill need to look into downgrading to the mentioned ones for a test.
and subjective? No, it is not subjective, itis like night and day. The hd500 sounds crap, a deaf and retarded monkey could tell this. It has notking to do with subjective tone likeability, it is that the sound is crushed and lacks detail. I dont think it is digital clipping, its more like it has been reduced to 12 or 8bit with a blanket over it. With the dt25 i can hear each string ringing out in a chord, but with the hd500 i hear a digital crunchy mess which lacks any depth and body.
very frustrating as ive gone through all the settings many times and havent found the Suck on/off option yet
Currently Being ModeratedMar 13, 2013 5:09 AM (in response to innovine)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
and subjective? No, it is not subjective, itis like night and day. The hd500 sounds crap, a deaf and retarded monkey could tell this
if you really believe this.... then i really believe that you are doing something wrong...
just quit whining and sell the hd500 already... it's obviously too much for you... and if the amp itself makes you happy move on.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 13, 2013 5:24 AM (in response to TheRealZap)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
There is no need to be rude. If I am doing something wrong, then I want to know what it is so I can fix it. I don't wanna sell my hd500, I want the dream rig which I purchased to work as expected, and as it obviously does for many people.
Comments such as "its obviously too much for you", coming from Mr Amp Magic "because i'm not an engineer etc" are pretty weak. I AM an engineer, and I expect an engineering solution to this, or an engineering explanation, or at the very least, an official "sorry we cannot explain that". And then I can sell my gear. Perhaps solving issues is too much for you, and you move on, but not me. As long as the issue is confused and speculative, there is a chance that it is a configuration error in my hd500, and so I am prepared to whine as much as it takes to get an answer from someone who knows more than "amp magic". This requires empirical testing, discussion, research and asking questions. If that is too much for you, you don't need to comment.
Sorry if my efforts to get to the bottom of this sound whiney. I am frustrated with both the so-called experts, and the line6 support in the face of an obvious problem. As an expert with 11000 posts I'd have thought you'd have learned how to show a little understanding for frustrated users by now.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 13, 2013 5:38 AM (in response to innovine)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
i'm rude... and you're the one calling people retarded and deaf monkey's?
all i said that if it doesn't work for you unload it and move on.
i'm not here to offer understanding or technical schooling...
you have access to the same contact information as everyone else...
and although they may be constrained by a paycheck rather than an NDA... and offer it up on a nicer platter...
they aren't going to babysit you all day either...
Currently Being ModeratedMar 13, 2013 6:32 AM (in response to TheRealZap)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Yes, I'm in contact with line6 already, since the forums are just filled with speculation and uninformed guesswork.
No, I'm not calling anyone deaf or retarded. Don't be so touchy. I mean that ANYONE on my end could hear the difference, we are not talking about audiophile level listening or what tone sounds better than what other tone. THAT is subjective. So instead, I've all my knobs set to 12 o clock, so it's not a matter of what tone sounds best. My test tone is equally bad in both cases, but there is a _quality_ difference that is night and day. If you are content to dial in different tones that sound good, then you will get good tones, and if you are happy enough with that then that's fine. You may never notice a difference, even if there is one.
Currently Being ModeratedApr 12, 2013 3:46 AM (in response to aeugle)Re: Patches for HD500 reproducing DT25 4 voicings
Hola amigos, justamente quiero comprar el cabezal DT50 y potenciar mi HD500 y este tema me parece super bueno.
ahora tambien estoy comparando un Blackstar Serie one 1046L6 y el Egnater Toumaster.
sus comentarios y recomendaciones son muy importantes para mi.
desde ya gracias.
Hello friends, just want to buy the DT50 head and enhance my HD500 and this issue seems super good.
Now I'm also comparing a Blackstar Series One 1046L6 and Egnater Toumaster.
comments and recommendations are very important to me.
from already thank you.