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12237 Views 41 Replies Latest reply: May 31, 2011 12:32 PM by daveschutt RSS
geetar42 Just Startin' 28 posts since
Feb 2, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Jun 1, 2009 2:19 PM

AVIOM?

Hey folks!

 

Are any of you currently using the AVIOM in ear monitoring system?  Did you have trouble or do you STILL have trouble going from your amp to monitoring in ear?  I personally miss the "vibe" or "feel" of Live music using my amp, and though it's great to have a mix YOU can control, the sound leaves a little bit left wanting. BTW, I feel really bad about this in that our church invested quite a bit of $ in the system, but I'm just having a tough time adjusting.  What could we do to improve the experience?

 

Peace!

 

geetar42

  • tkcrabby Just Startin' 3 posts since
    Jan 17, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 15, 2009 8:23 PM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    We've been using the Aviom units for few months now and i think everyone loves them,,,,,,,,,,,, we had been using IE monitors already though. I don't use IE with the Aviom, I use a set of full sized headphones. I've had to go direct to the main (house) board for a few years now and never have liked it as much as using a REAL guitar amp and wedges for monitoring BUT the volume levels would get out of hand on the platform so I guess they had to do something.

     

    I've been using a POD 2.0 for about three years at Church and just last week bought a POD XT Live ,, I have not learned all I need to know in order to use it in a service yet but hope to be able to soon.

     

    Hang in there with the EN , you'll get used to them.

     

    God bless,

                  Terry

    • ctaylor Just Startin' 5 posts since
      Feb 13, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jun 30, 2009 7:04 AM (in response to tkcrabby)
      Re: AVIOM?

      We use the Aviom and I fnd that the mix changes, it's great when things are low and only a few are playing in the mix but when the sound is cranked and the band, orchestra and choir start, the sound can become compressed and the the mix is different.

      I've been playing with them for 4 years, went from headphones to in-ears to help isolate external sound and save my hearing. We have 3 servces seating around 1800-2200/service with a new/very nice digital stereo Yamaha sound board. Going direct, giutar to pod to board. We have 3 different pods, xt live, pod xt and pod x3.

      My decision on the Aviom and the pods are still up to debate. I do like the sound of the pod x3 better than the others going direct.

  • bertwarbutton Just Startin' 2 posts since
    Jul 30, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 8, 2009 4:16 AM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    We utilize the AVIOM system in our church... 500 or so at each of two services on a Sunday... There are 5 worship bands with varied use of the system.  One worship team does not use them at all as the elec guitar guy will not give up his amp...In our team, generally the leader and front of the house people (two singers and one acoustic guitar) are using wedges; drums, bass and two electric guitars utilizing the AVIOM... I play bass and go direct from the X3 Live to the PA... some dual tone modelling mixed evenly for direct XLR connection to the PA... one electric is POD XT Live to PA (1/4 out to direct box) and the other is a BOSS multi-effects unit 1/4 out to direct box to the PA...

     

    The AVIOM experience has been a change... we implemented it in January (6 months ago)... some comments...

     

    • tend to get an "isolated" feel from wearing in-ear buds
    • I would say that buying expensive ear buds is important (I use Shure E3) but if the cash came available I would upgrade again to M-Audio IE-40 (good positive reviews for bass response for the price).. really this is a must... if you just use cheap "IPOD" buds then you will never get a good feel for the IE system...
    • bass response is a bit of an issue and while "studio style over the ear cans" give you that thump, they look bulky playing live... I do use them at home when playing "quietly"
    • ability to set separate monitor mix and save it to a preset for recall is excellent
    • obviously the "vibration" feel from a large bass amp just does not happen but you can get around that...

     

    On the whole, for me, the positives of the system outweigh the negatives... just a different feel...  FYI... the church is expanding and buying more of the individual controllers so I will expect more of the front of the house people will start using them as well..

     

    Regards,

     

    Brent Warkentin

  • samcham Just Startin' 6 posts since
    Sep 22, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 15, 2009 9:35 PM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    My previous church has used Avioms for several years, and we all loved them.  I recently moved away, and I'll miss that system.  Being able to hear yourself and the rest of the band clearly simply cannot be overestimated.  My new church uses floor wedges, and I'm really not looking forward to it.

     

    Not everyone likes them, though.  When Keaggy played at our place recently, we had to go rent floor wedges for him, as he would not play with Avioms.

     

    Just a side note...If your backstage area is big enough, as ours was, there's no reason you can't use a live amp with Avioms.  Most of our guitar players did, although the bassists went direct.  I set up my Fender Cyber Deluxe backstage, pointed down a hall, and stuck an SM57 in front of it.  I kept the volume reasonable, but loud enough to let the amp do its thing.  It worked out very well.

    • wriimage Just Startin' 6 posts since
      Nov 11, 2008
      Currently Being Moderated
      Feb 22, 2010 11:35 PM (in response to samcham)
      Re: AVIOM?

      Before avioms, I built a portable sound enclosure for use backstage which was miced internally. I could let it rip and the sound tech could still control the volume.

       

      If your church used wedges and you want to use in-ears, you can always use a headphone amp that allows you to mix a feed from the board with the feed from your instrument/mic. It doesn't affect what you're sending to the board, and you'll be able to hear yourself, even if you're not much in the house or monitor mix. If the monitor feed coming to your is powered, Rolls makes a transformer that allows a powered signal to go into a headphone amp. There are several varieties of headphone amps, starting around $45 (US) or so. Many of my musicians are satisfied with $20 skull candy in-ears, but the higher end ones can sound incredibly awesome.

  • DrBob737 Just Startin' 9 posts since
    Oct 2, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2010 5:35 PM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    Our church is considering Aviom now as we have for the past two years, been using  Macki digital fold back 32 x 8 channel aux mix into Shure and Weston in-ears. It has been successful but it is very time consuming for fold back engineer when he has to set up six vocals and six musicians all in an hour before service starts. For electric guitar, the one trick I do use is as per my article in "Combating negative views on electric guitar " apart from guitar tilt and head monitoring I actually leave my in-ear closest to my guitar amp half out and so I get the "live" feel of what I am doing consistently. I don't think I will change my habits much even when we go to Aviom.

  • xradaddy Just Startin' 4 posts since
    Jul 13, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2010 7:50 PM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    I'm not sure exactly where I read this, but it was suggested that the isolation that you feel when using in-ears can be combatted by adding 2 microphones out in the house to pick up the sound of the house. These mics are then fed to the in-ears and NOT the housemix for obvious reasons. These mics will pick up the rooms sound including some congregation singing and allow each person to adjust the amount of the house that they would like to hear in their monitors. I wish we used AVIOMs but we are in no position to spend that much money right now.

    • DrBob737 Just Startin' 9 posts since
      Oct 2, 2006
      Currently Being Moderated
      Feb 24, 2010 7:54 PM (in response to xradaddy)
      Re: AVIOM?

      I like that idea, it makes sense. Probably would not give you a definative sound between electric guitar and congregation exclusively but it would help in "live feel" balance in your head. Hmmm

    • wriimage Just Startin' 6 posts since
      Nov 11, 2008
      Currently Being Moderated
      Feb 24, 2010 9:32 PM (in response to xradaddy)
      Re: AVIOM?

      We do this, and it should work, but it has a lot to be desired. Maybe we should try different mics. We're also mixing the congregation/room sound into what we call the "junk" channel in our avioms, which contains the ensemble/choir feed, pastor mics, dvd/cd feeds, and other odds and ends, making it tough to balance evenly.

       

      Some of our people pull out one in-ear, which the shure tech lectured me against for nearly 20 minutes when I admitted to doing it because of the potential hearing damage it could cause.

       

      Any other ideas?

    • John_J Just Startin' 91 posts since
      Oct 1, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      May 30, 2011 8:31 AM (in response to xradaddy)
      Re: AVIOM?

      xradaddy wrote:

       

      I'm not sure exactly where I read this, but it was suggested that the isolation that you feel when using in-ears can be combatted by adding 2 microphones out in the house to pick up the sound of the house. These mics are then fed to the in-ears and NOT the housemix for obvious reasons. These mics will pick up the rooms sound including some congregation singing and allow each person to adjust the amount of the house that they would like to hear in their monitors. I wish we used AVIOMs but we are in no position to spend that much money right now.

      We do this in my church in Malaysia, the Aviom A-16IIs have a channel labelled "Ambient".

      It's just ok, though. I find it doesn't help a whole lot. I usually leave it out of my mix.

  • tonebuff Just Startin' 102 posts since
    Dec 9, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2010 8:42 PM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    Our church situation is a little unique.  We are only a 4 year old church and are portable - we have to setup and tear down each week, but the christian school we meet in have been awesome and flexible with us.  The eqipment takes a beating but we have been blessed to be able to afford certain items.

    Our setup with Avioms/wedges:

    Drummer - Aviom

    Electric guitar - Aviom (I rotate with another elec gtr player/never on together)

    Bass - Aviom

    Male vocal/percussionist - Aviom

    Acoustic guitar - floor wedge

    Backing vocals (2-3) - floor wedge

    Keyboards - Aviom

     

    So you see, we have challenges too, especially with some of us having in-ears and some with wedges.  Those Avioms aren't cheap.  I use an X3 Live direct to board, so all I depend on is my Aviom - our sound crew does a pretty good job with the house mix, but it's not perfect, especially how the electric gets put in FOH - somtimes weak, but most folks don't know the difference.  I'd rather use a live amp setup, but with all the setup and teardown, the X3 live is the way to go for us.

     

    The Avioms have a learning curve and the sound is very basic - no "vibe" or true "warmth", but I've learned for now to live with it and use the Aviom to hear what I need to hear.  I think improving the sound will depend on a couple of things - money, patience, and creativity.

    Things that have helped me:

    - Use the best in-ears you can afford

    - Use the best cables you can afford (I've noticed huge differences in this area)

    - Try using a combo setup - Avioms and a small personal monitor/amp close to you that feeds off your x3/xt to at least give you back your guitar sound

     

    hope this helps

    tonebuff

    • wriimage Just Startin' 6 posts since
      Nov 11, 2008
      Currently Being Moderated
      Feb 24, 2010 9:25 PM (in response to tonebuff)
      Re: AVIOM?

      You're right, the avioms are a major investment. But you can still get your foot in the in-ear door and it will only cost you $50.

       

      Get a Rolls Personal Monitor. You feed it the same line that would go to the monitor amp or powered speaker, whichever you use. You also feed in the line from your guitar mic, which then splits (balanced) to the snake or however you feed to the sound board normally. Plug in your in-ears and you're in business. You control both the overall mix feed and your guitar monitor feed.

       

      While you cannot control the various instrument levels within the monitor mix, you're no worse off than before with a wedge, plus you can boost your own signal as much as you need it.

       

      I had my teams try this setup for a year before we were willing to risk the bucks on the aviom. It sold us. Now our youth band is using them, and their comment is that they can finally hear themselves. I get the added benefit of reduced feedback issues (because of reduced stage volume) with the volume levels they run. Plus the sound tech can actually mix levels rather than being at the mercy of the stage volume.

      • tonebuff Just Startin' 102 posts since
        Dec 9, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Feb 25, 2010 6:18 PM (in response to wriimage)
        Re: AVIOM?

        Definitely!  I went with the MAudio IE 30's - $100 / good investment!

        Yeah the stage volume is whole other issue with a mix of Avioms and wedges!

  • webe123 Just Startin' 16 posts since
    Aug 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 25, 2010 3:12 PM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    The church I went to before had them, but after trying to get used to them for a couple of months, I gave up.I now go to a church where I use my Mesa Boogie Lonestar  2x12 with a pod x3 live and the 4 cable method (which allows you to just use the effects off the pod and takes out the modeling) and a hotspot monitor and I LOVE that setup! I have the amp facing me and miced, so I do not have it pointed at the audience.

     

    Here are a couple of points againt the avaiom system that I can see after using it. First....most musicians are NOT soundtechs! They do not know HOW to get a good monior mix of everything and be STILL able to hear their instrument over the others...all while using either a headset, in ear system or hotsopt, which our keyboard player (AND former soundguy) used. In other words, while they may be heaven sent for some instruments or some people such as bass or keyboard players, some like guitar players and some acoustic drummers  even in a drum booth like the sound of their instrument miced going through the PA and use a hotspot or floor monitor for their sound.

     

    I did use the avaiom system, but it became clear that I was simply NOT comfortable with it. So I just started using my amp because I never could hear myself in the stupid thing! It was not a week later and I looked over and the other guitar player quit using his because of the same reason....it simply did NOT sound like an amp at all! But the bass player and keyboard player and I think the drummer with a hotspot used them.

     

    Of course, I do NOT use just a POD for my sound and have to depend on the soudtechs for a mix. That method may work well for someone in a church of 500 or so, IF and I say IF they can afford to hire an experienced sound tech ( I am talking about someone who knows what they are doing...as opposed to people who run sound and THINK they know what they are doing), but NOT when the sound tech is a layman and they know very little about sound. Not all churches are equal when it comes to having people at a soundboard that you can depend on for your mix!

     

    The next point especially for guitarists and maybe acoustic drummers, is that you can actually hear the amp or drums and seem to play much better with just a regular monitor, though you CAN use a hotspot with an aviom, but again, you still have to be able to mix it to your taste...which can also change when the service gets louder and the mix changes! Then....you DON'T HAVE TIME in a live service to go back through your mix and find out what went wrong or what instruments are too loud and which are too soft! You are just STUCK with the sound you have until you can fix it. It was just too much for me to worry about. I have enough on my plate playing different guitars on different songs ....including acoustic and MIDI along with my regular electric.

     

    I will say that I DO like the idea of using the rolls mixer as a way to get an overall or master sound of the monitor mix. Because then you just adjust the volume and nothing more. You have your mix of the other instruments and your instrument. Simple. I like it! But the avaiom just did not mix with someone like me who has been playing for 29 years and used an amp all that time!

    • wriimage Just Startin' 6 posts since
      Nov 11, 2008
      Currently Being Moderated
      Feb 26, 2010 9:00 AM (in response to webe123)
      Re: AVIOM?

      You have some excellent points!

       

      > musicians are not soundtechs

      We ran headlong into this! What I ended up doing was to take an entire practice with each team to do training.

       

      We taught them:

      • sometimes reducing an instrument in the mix will clear things up than raising the level of a different instrument

      • to pan strategically by separating instruments with similar frequency and tonal ranges

      • to save their settings

      • that the purpose of monitors is to allow them to hear what they need to hear in order to play rather than to create a perfect CD-quality sound in their head

       

      Then the techs listened in on each person's mix and provided suggestions until each person was comfortable with the general mix which each musician could work from as needed. (We should probably do this again as it's been a couple years and our musician base has changed somewhat - we do train each muso as they come on a team.)

       

      > it takes a break-in period

      For some this was longer than others. This is true for several reasons. Some musos focus on the interaction of other musos - these folks need to have the avioms set up so they can hear everyone distinctly, including the voices of non-singers so they can communicate. Other musos focus on the reaction of the audience - these folks need to hear the house or they'll feel disconnected.

       

      Some musicians just don't want the distraction. That makes sense to me - I already have too much to be thinking about (I'm simultaneousely playing an electirc guitar rig, an acoustic one, a synth module - all through one guitar and pedals, singing lead, directing the team, giving vocal cues to the projectionists, interacting with and leading the congregation, and staying connected with God and asking where He wants us to go in the midst of all this). But I find it easier to tweak my own aviom between songs than to try giving directions to a sound tech who is doing a monitor mix.

       

      To help with our break-in period, we required the musos to use the avioms (after training them). This was more because of the sound issues we faced which the avioms addressed rather than anything else. But because not using the avioms was not an option, even the people frustrated by them had to learn to adjust. Two nearly quit over the matter out of frustration (a drummer and a vocalist). But we really didn't have much of a choice, and now those same people are some of the strongest supporters of the aviom system.

       

      > hire an experienced sound tech

      We're not in a position to do that, either. And with as busy as the guys are working on the house mix, getting a good monitor mix just didn't happen, even when I had my own custom monitor mix. Now I can hear what I want to hear, and at levels I like.

       

      Avioms carry their own set of issues. So does using amps or stage monitors. I look at it in this way: do whatever works best for the audio compromises your church faces (including budget, musos, techs, acoustics...). For years I used a stage amp (I'm an old head banging rocker from the 70's/80's). Then I switched to an off-stage amp with a sound cabinet in an enclosure. Now I'm playing through a tweaked X-3 live running direct. (That's my electric channel - different story on the acoustic one). Tools change, needs change, solutions change - even for old dogs like us.

      • tonebuff Just Startin' 102 posts since
        Dec 9, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Feb 26, 2010 10:02 AM (in response to wriimage)
        Re: AVIOM?

        Excellent points!  I love the approach.  The biggest struggle we face is more of a time issue - people's busy lives, schedules, making time for training - and of course we all have very strong personalities, etc.  Our worship leader is part time with family and our church is a very healthy 4 year old church that is mobile, so we work with what we can and do.  But we are in a better place than most churches our size (200) and age.

         

        Frank

        http://trinitychurchde.com/

          • webe123 Just Startin' 16 posts since
            Aug 25, 2007
            Currently Being Moderated
            Mar 8, 2010 7:44 PM (in response to geetar42)
            Re: AVIOM?

            Well as I said earlier..IF and ONLY IF.....you have decent sound techs, then you may benifit from this system.  BUT.... if you don't, you are better off with monitors in my opinion.

             

            Not every church has sound techs that really know what they are doing. And they would have to in this case, because everything depends on it.

            • baudrate Just Startin' 6 posts since
              Aug 10, 2007
              Currently Being Moderated
              Aug 29, 2010 3:26 PM (in response to webe123)
              Re: AVIOM?

              I love the Aviom system BECAUSE of inexperienced sound techs.  I am tired of doing soundchecks and then having a completely different mix in the monitors during the service.

               

              I don't have to rely on them in order to be able to hear my guitar, they don't control of the send.

               

              I use corded, in ear headphones.  For mix, I have the Worship Leader's vocals, Piano, drums (Hihat and snare for timing) and my guitar.  It isn't the whole, perfect mix, but that's not what it's for.  It's just enough to know where we are at.

               

              Our other instrumentalists either use them w/ a hotspot or headphones (drummer).

               

              I don't worry about how the FOH mix sounds, I just leave it in the sound tech's (and God's) hands.

              • markbrid Just Startin' 97 posts since
                Sep 28, 2010
                Currently Being Moderated
                Oct 12, 2010 12:59 PM (in response to baudrate)
                Re: AVIOM?

                I have used the Aviom system in a larger church, and it was great.  We used it with wedge monitors, and it worked just fine.  Everyone else in the church liked it as well.  We didn't try it with ear buds however, only wedges.

                 

                I also gigged in a secular band for several years using a version of the "cheap Aviom" Rolls monitor system described earlier.  I took two of the Rolls personal monitors, and ran the output to one into one input of the other.  I could then run the main monitor mix and my vocal mic into the first Rolls, then add my guitar amp mic into the second one.  This allowed free mixing of the three sources, and it worked extremely well with ear buds.  I eventually went away from this as we freed up an aux send on the monitor board and I went with a Shure wireless monitor system.

                 

                One problem you have with some musicians is that they can be extremely picky on a monitor mix.  Our old keyboard player in the secular band would take 1/2 hour every practice to tweak his ears "just right".  However the singers in our praise team are very low maintenance when it comes to monitors.  (I switch between running sound and playing guitar in the praise band, soon to be full time guitarist after the sound system is stabilized).

                 

                Here's something I have been interested in of late, the QSC K10 powered speaker/monitor.  This speaker can be used as a monitor, and has a 2 channel input mixer on the back with through jacks; like if the Rolls headphone monitor was integrated into the speaker.  I'm thinking about buying a few of the K-series as it can solve a lot of problems (such as our drummer going to V-drums; he could mix the main vocal monitor send with as much V-drums as he likes).

                 

                http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/k_series/K_series_K10.php

                • LP1959 Just Startin' 1 posts since
                  Jan 3, 2011
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Jan 3, 2011 8:58 AM (in response to markbrid)
                  Re: AVIOM?

                  Ok, I realize this thread has been going on for some time, but I'm new here, so I'll throw in my two cents...

                   

                  We use the Aviom system. We're a good sized church, but not huge (weekly attendance about 1,000). We started using Aviom for two reasons - stage volume and house sound issues. Anytime you use slants you are adding to what my be perceived by many congregants as "too loud" (which, of course, many guitarists might say there's no such thing). In order to get useful spl levels out of slants, you're adding to the overall house volume - regardless of the room acoustical makeup. Regarding the second point, slants - of course - are facing backwards (towards the musicians and away from the congregation). This results in reflections off of the back (and potentially side) walls in almost any room, unless the room was specifically engineered to prevent it. Anytime you have these reflections added to the sound being projected directly forward from front facing/house cabinets the time delay between the sound coming from the 'mains' and the reflection (from the slants) will pretty much always muddy up the sound the congregation is hearing. 

                   

                  Unless your auditorium/sanctuary was built in the past 5-10 years and specifically engineered for sound (doubtful) the acoustics in these rooms are often not conducive for what we do. If sound was considered at all, it was probably geared towards speech, not music at 80-90db (or higher - we typically run about 92db peak). If you have otherwise in your place and it was not designed such, it was probably dumb luck!

                   

                  Aside from those two issues, being able to individually tweak your mix is a huge advantage. In my opinion, in almost any church setting there is pretty much no up-side to using slants, given another option (i.e., Aviom - IEM). However, this stuff does cost money and we all know what that means. What it boils down to is how much of a price do you want to place on house sound quality?

  • DrBob737 Just Startin' 9 posts since
    Oct 2, 2006

    Ok so here is the real clanger! After all the discussions we have, in doing our best and having our product teams do their best and the Church doing their best to provide funds for better equipment and audio results that hopefully everyone is happy about, we come to a point that it is all about praise to God, and He is listening and sometimes things just get away from your control to His control and that service you thought was terrible, a new person in the congregation walks up and says its the best worship he/she had every heard and it inspired them to accept Jesus. What do you say to that? The service you thought sounded brilliant and you ask a friend who was sitting in the back row and they heard none of your guitar ugh!! 

     

    Yes, pursue  your playing and ideal sound at 100% for God, do the best you can, play the best you can, God asks for nothing more and then when you really understand that and you understand the inner feelings of your heart..... then see that smile on your face just being able to be on stage and honor God regardless of what is being played, how well it is being played, what your age is, who is grumbling backstage, and yes what equipment is at your disposal. The honor is in the being there ... now.

     

    It was just a thought given to me from someone special.

  • ZemanG2 Just Startin' 65 posts since
    Nov 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 25, 2010 11:21 PM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    So I have been reading this long conversation, and part of me is so jealous that you have IEMs! I lead a worship team of 6 musicians and 6 singers, well most weeks, some weeks it is as low as three. We have 2 monitors and 2 hotspots only. I don't get to use an amp because I have been told I am too loud and have been requested to lower the sound. I don't even get a monitor, if I want to hear the mix I have to walk to one side of the stage or the other to listen to one of the two stage monitors.

     

    I see the ams some of you guys use and again jealous!

     

     

    All that to say, let us be glad with what we have! As cheesy as this sounds, it only matters if God is glorified. I feel terrible on the weeks I spend 12 hours or more working on a song, writing music, but less than 4 hours praying for the service and my team. So pursue perfection my friends! Let the music you make strive for perfection, as it is an offering. Yet keep that balance to worship privately so that our public worship is true

     

    Cheers

     

    Mike

  • Jiffybiff Just Startin' 1 posts since
    Jul 11, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 11, 2010 6:43 AM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    Apart from the "vibe" issues, that have been well documented in this thread, there is still one more important thing to consider. Communication, especially during practice sessions, where arrangements, and changes are dealt with. Being the drummer, and having to play behind the giant "sneeze guard", and having IEM's lodged deep in my ear canal means I can't hear a word our band leader says unless he is talking into his mic. This can be a little frustrating, as you can imagine. I find I love the Avioms for the "live" application, but wish we could just rehearse with amps, and wedges to iron out any tweaks in the songs, or set, then spend a little time with the Avioms, to get our personal mixes right.

    My favorite thing about the Aviom is that everyone can hear the click-track, so intros, and pauses are near perfect, and none of THAT is heard FOH. I've always had a difficult time playing to a click "live" because of issues with volume on stage. Having the click in the monitor mix works beautifully, and I can adjust the levels from my output device, and my personal mixer...no problem hearing it now. YAY.

  • JerryWawak Just Startin' 119 posts since
    Dec 2, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 8, 2011 9:21 AM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    We have used AVIOM for a couple years now.  It's a love / hate thing.  And it does take lots of getting used to.

     

    If you use it as intended you will turn up the things you want to hear like your own vocals or guitar and turn down much of the rest of the band.  However you have to keep reminding yourself that this is NOT what the audience is hearing.  Many times I will go to play a subtle fill and it's very loud in my ears (because I turned me up in the AVIOM).  I have to trust that it is mixed properly in the house.  I do have to put more trust in the soundman because there is no amp on stage.  Before, if he turned me down, people could still hear my amp.  Now that is not the case.  But now if he turns me down, HE can't hear me, so it also makes sure I am in the mix.  Before he would hear my stage volume and turn me down in the house.  As a result the recorded audio or video had very little guitar in it.  Same for the bass.  If the bassist's amp was enough to fill the house he would turn it down in the PA.  No signal to the recording.

     

    Aviom and earbuds.  You won't get as much low end and you won't feel the sound moving past your legs, but the pros out weigh the cons.

  • hitchface Just Startin' 310 posts since
    Jul 1, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 8, 2011 9:46 AM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    I think the amount of low end you get depends on the earbud you are using. A custom (see: isolated) multi-driver unit will give you some pretty significant oomph if you haven't yanked it all out on your EQ.

     

    Our church is currently treating the sanctuary (thankfully), but we still have to deal with wedges. I am going to be pushing for in-ear systems.

    • JerryWawak Just Startin' 119 posts since
      Dec 2, 2008
      Currently Being Moderated
      Feb 8, 2011 9:50 AM (in response to hitchface)
      Re: AVIOM?

      We are using professional Shure in ears.  There is no substitute for that low thump on your chest.  Luckily we can still "feel" some to the lowend from the house.  But it's not the same as a tube amp flapping your jeans.

      • hitchface Just Startin' 310 posts since
        Jul 1, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Feb 8, 2011 9:52 AM (in response to JerryWawak)
        Re: AVIOM?

        Well, I am guilty of listening with my ears. Many of our congregation are hard of hearing, so jean-flapping is pretty strictly prohibited

        • JerryWawak Just Startin' 119 posts since
          Dec 2, 2008
          Currently Being Moderated
          Feb 8, 2011 10:00 AM (in response to hitchface)
          Re: AVIOM?

          Well we crank it.  Our PA is pretty loud.  However before, the stage volume was so loud that the PA was having a hard time competing with stage volume.

           

          P.S.  We also have some Roland TD-12 electronic drums.

          • hitchface Just Startin' 310 posts since
            Jul 1, 2007
            Currently Being Moderated
            Feb 8, 2011 10:03 AM (in response to JerryWawak)
            Re: AVIOM?

            Yeah, we are planning for a Friday Night service that will be a bit...livelier. We gotta get our room treated first though, because it is a mess. 48'x48'x18'. Bleh.

  • tuffrabit Just Startin' 18 posts since
    Jul 14, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 10, 2011 12:03 PM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    Blech... I hate in ear setups.  Feels like everybody is in their own little sound isolated box.  I was at a church that switched from wedges and amps on stage to avioms, I immediately disliked it.  Whatever benefits of fine grained control was downplayed by the sterile feel... never got used to it.  The church I'm at now is much smaller therefore the stage setup is much more primitive, but it feels totally organic.  Hope I never have to go back to the in ear garbage.

    • baudrate Just Startin' 6 posts since
      Aug 10, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Mar 22, 2011 2:27 PM (in response to tuffrabit)
      Re: AVIOM?

      But using an aviom system doesn't necessarily mean using in-ears.   You can feed it to a powered wedge.

      • JerryWawak Just Startin' 119 posts since
        Dec 2, 2008
        Currently Being Moderated
        Mar 22, 2011 2:42 PM (in response to baudrate)
        Re: AVIOM?

        baudrate wrote:

         

        But using an aviom system doesn't necessarily mean using in-ears.   You can feed it to a powered wedge.

        correct.  we have both.  our musicians have in ears and the singers use a wedge that is controlled by an Aviom.

  • JerryWawak Just Startin' 119 posts since
    Dec 2, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 22, 2011 2:43 PM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    One word of warning when going to an Aviom type system where the musicians control the monitors.  The soundman loses control of the monitors. So if you have guest performers you either have to give them a crash course in Aviom or figure out something else.

    • baudrate Just Startin' 6 posts since
      Aug 10, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Mar 22, 2011 7:37 PM (in response to JerryWawak)
      Re: AVIOM?

      ya, and the issue w/ powered wedges is that if they get left on, they can be a source of unwanted sound on the stage that the sound guy can't turn it off.

  • DanCornett Just Startin' 93 posts since
    Feb 9, 2011
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 31, 2011 9:53 AM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    I am personally of the opinion that stage volumes should be low enough to hear the congregation.  "Think acoustic", even if you are not.  And use e-drums if the drummer is too loud on an acoustic set -- and if an acoustic-set drummer is in the middle of the group, set them off to the side.

     

    If your facility is big enough that the stage volume is that loud, then let the FOH system worry about "carrying" the sound.  Mic the amps and keep the stage volume down (even if you are not using something like the L1 Systems on stage).

     

    It's all about worship, not a performance ... and EVERYONE should be in worship together.

  • daveschutt Just Startin' 254 posts since
    Sep 8, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 31, 2011 12:32 PM (in response to geetar42)
    Re: AVIOM?

    I've been using Avioms for the last 3 years at our church.  We used to have individual controls where we could create our own mixes and recently got a second board setup and have a sound person to our in ear mixes.  It takes some getting used to.  We do have 2 ambient mics that help give it a more live feel.  One thing I don't like is I have no idea what I sound like FOH.  I record all our rehearsals and services to refine my playing and tones and sometimes it's night and day from what I have in my ears and what the congregation actually hears.  Sometimes I'm so buried in the mix, I might as well not have showed up.

     

    What I have learned to do is I use a good set of over the ear headphones at home to initially set up my tones plugged directly into my HD500.  I for the next step I plug into a FRFR EV powered 12" wedge I have at home to further tweak the tones at volume.  Finally, I'll record the rehearsal and make any other tweaks I need but they are usually minimal.  This has made a great improvement in the satisfaction of my tones since using this method.  I've also gone and plugged my HD into the board at the back of the house to create some basic tones and EQ settings so what I build I know will be in the same ballpark week after week.  Now how I'm put into the mix well I just have to trust whoever is running sound the weeks I'm playing like guitars!

     

    Last bit of advice is to buy the best in ear headphones you can afford.  I went from iPod headphones, to Shure SCL 3's, these were better than the iPod headphones but still had very little bass.  Finally I invested in some Shure SCL 5's and it's been night and day difference.  If I wind up upgrading these I'll probably get some custom molded headsets but definitely dual or triple drivers.  Try to get a minimal dual drivers to get more bass in your head.

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