Jul 27, 2009 1:33 PM
eq or compressor???
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I hate extra noise. I use noise gates on all of my tracks except drums but it still doesn't push the quality to it's finest. I know how to mix rather well but I still can't get the quality I've been striving for on my guitars. How can I get my guitar to sound round, full and tight within the mix? is there some kind of eq or compressor that can do the job? if so what settings are best?
hmmm....Having 16 bit source files can be a huge problem for noise. The reason is that the max dynamic range is about 96 db (0 dbfs) at that bit width...If you record @ 16 bit and your peak level on the track is -3 dbfs or lower then compression or boosted EQ is going to add noise...This is one of the most compelling reasons to record @ 24 bits are higher...
My favorite "tone" EQ is the Pultec Pro plug from Universal Audio...
Gates are difficult...Even the best predictive gates will miss something. I generally wash those drum tracks out by hand and use gates for rough mixes...
thanks for the reply. what I need is a better program. what program do u use? I need some options because I'd like to start working on my own music this week.
It might help to know what you have in terms of your computer, appications, audio interface etc...My stuff is a little old but pretty good...EMU 1820 interface...Sonar Producer 5. I also have 4 UAD-1 DSP cards for plugins...My PC is pretty old...ASUS A7N8X Deluxe, Athlon XP3000+ (2 gHz), 2 GB RAM...I have about 1.5 TB of drive space or so...
I would recommend checking out Reaper...
What program are you using?
cgtrox ![]()
GarageBand
Exactly how are you recording your guitar? USB, POD, live mic? What interface are you using? I used Sonar 4 PE to record our bands demo and I also have Sonar 6 PE. Try Reaper for free just to see how it stacks up against garageband. You may find it has more options.
cgtrox ![]()
+1
Interface...What interface are you using?...
So this is a mac...I have only limited experience with Garageband. However, my brother uses it and has gotten great results...He did get the upgrade from what comes with OSX which allows for some deeper features. But regardless of the PC and Software, the quality of the audio starts with the audio interface.
+1 to space, the interface is where you have your D/A (digital to analog) converters. The interface I have, the EMU1212m mastering card has the same converters that Pro Tools has! I originally wanted an RME but low on $$$...
This is where you don't wanna skimp on $$$ if you can help it!!
cgtrox ![]()
Do you have the audiodock or using an ADAT IO box?...Being impressed with the EMU stuff goes without saying...I have had my 1820 for about 5 years now...great gear from those guys...
Mine is internal, I just use the two TRS ins straight into the card. I only record one thing at a time so that's all I need. But, then it also has MIDI, S/PDIF, ADAT, AES/EBU, etc. It really is good stuff, check it..... http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=505&subcategory=491&product=9872
cgtrox ![]()
Oh yea, I know the card well...I was just curious...My singer has a 1212m with a Behringer ADA8000...That's a very sweet setup for under $400 total...I am trying to get him to get an audiodock for it before they totally disappear...The new 1616s while I am sure they are great are 2 IOs short of the previous 1010 based hardware...I will keep my 1820 as long as it works...
1212m with a Behringer ADA8000 is a very nice set up for the price.. it's probably the only line of Behringer products that doesn't suck haha.. i bought a wawa pedal from them a few years ago that was complete trash.. stayed away ever since but once again the ADA8000 is quite nice.. def keep that 1820.. i've heard great things but never looked into it myself..
wow i didn't expect this much feedback.. got all the interface and tone info i needed.. thanks guys.
Whoa, that ADA8000 is sweet! So, I could use like two of those and daisychain them via ADAT into the ADAT input of my card and have 16 tracks going at the same time, right? That ADAT looks like the other end of a USB cable, is there a special cable I would need? Will it show up on the Sonar like that, 16 seperate tracks?? I guess I never realized the full potential of my card! What is this "audiodock" that you speak of ?? ![]()
Lots of questions aye?
cgtrox ![]()
Yes, they all map to ASIO...Actually you can just load one of the ADAT defaults in patchmix to see how it works...
The audio dock works with your 1010 card...The 1212 is the analog IO daughter card...Basically you have an 1820m without the audio dock...Add one ADA8000 and the audiodock and you are 18x18 on analog IO...You have to be a little careful, not all 1010 cards are the same...The ones with Firewire are a little older...
Uh-oh, now I have to check mine to see if it has the Firewire connection!! I could of sworn it doesn't have it, but I'll look again. Would I have to switch to ASIO drivers in Sonar for it to work or do I just use the EMU DSP thing?
cgtrox ![]()
ASIO for the EMU is built into hardware...there's nothing to update...There are drivers, but you probably have them already if you are running the latest patchmix...Just change patchmix, then go into Sonar and turn them on...That's it...Then you will go OMG!!!
Here is what I know...I did talk to one of the engineers at EMU...My singer uses my 1820 Audiodock on his 1212m...Works great...
There are two versions of the 1010 card...One has Firewire and one does not. If the 1010 does not have a firewire port then I think you can use the 1616m audiodock...
The older 1820 audio docks actually come in two flavors because towards the end they put put out some 1820s with the newer 1010 cards without the firewire port...
I think your best bet would be to call EMU directly and see what your options are...Or just get an ADA8K...That puts you to 10x10...And I was mistaken, about the audiodock...When you add one is disables the 1212 duaghtercard...
ADA8K is a cheaper alternative compared to the audiodock...You also need two optical cables...You might need some XLR->TRS adapters for the outputs...They are XLR only on the ADA8K...You do have XLR and TRS on the inputs...
One nice little bonus of the ADA8K is that is completely cool is that it potentially rids your system of any signal ground loops that might be looping at the computer...optical isolation is nice that way...
I've always wanted to ask this, "Why do these things like the ADA8K have INS and OUTS??" Do you use them like "thru" boxes? You know, mic to ADA to mixing board (live recording)? Or do you only use one side or the other at any given time? Say if I wanted to record a live 4pc drum set, I have 8 tracks at my disposal, KICK,SNARE,TOM, etc. Do I run the mics into the front of the ADA8K? Then if I run it via the ADAT cable to the ADAT input of my card, it will bring up the 8 seperate tracks in Sonar on the computer right? Or am I missing something here? I think the ADA8K is what I will prolly get, I just wanna make sure ...
cgtrox ![]()
It's all about Patchmix and ASIO mapping....Basically, when you add an ADA8K using two optical cable (8 inx8 out) you can do quite a few things with that...Think of it as a soft patch bay for Sonar...Sonar sees ASIO....PAtchmix is the layer between ASIO and the real inputs and outputs...
Here is something you can do with the outputs...Make a headphone bus...Your normal ASIO outputs are likely 31/32 @ 48K....15/16 @ 96K....So in Sonar you could assign the default headphone bus that most Sonar projects have to ASIO Out 1/2, stick a send from the master bus to the headphone bus...That takes care of Sonar...Now jump back to patchmix and assign ASIO 1/2 to ADAT 1/2...Plug the outputs of 1/2 on the ADA8K to a headphone distro amp....Now you have discrete track and bus mixing on discrete outputs...It is also useful for switch monitors. Put nearfields on thier own outputs, big monitors on thier own....computer speakers on their own...even a mono bus....
I actually use the outputs for reamping...On the audiodock and your daughter card you can make the outputs intrument level...This means that you can re-amp the old fashioned way...You just need to setup patchmix and save the setup so you can recall it later...Assign the ouput of a track directly to and ASIO output that maps in patchmix....plug in the gear...map the input and off you go...very cool stuff...Another cool thing you can do with those extra outputs is setup true surround monitoring...
With patchmix you don't need a mixer....patchmix is your mixer...The ADA8K is just the inputs and outputs and they can be mapped anyway you want...The inputs and outputs are completely independent of each other...That is why you have to have two optical cables...
WOW great info man! That's exactly what I needed to know thanks bro! Right now I have my nearfields unplugged cuz we've been using the Behringer headphone amp lately. The main thing I was wondering is if the INS and OUTS were tied to each other, and they're not! Perfect. Now, if I get this thing, it will disable my daughter card right?
cgtrox
No, the ADA won't disable the daughter card...You will have 10x10 which is exactly what my singer's rig is...It's when you add an EMu audiodock that you lose the daughter card...Later adding an EMU audiodock that would take you to 16x16 with an 1820 dock...14x14 with a 1616 dock...The audiodock is pretty decent but a little expensive (unless you found an 1820 that is compatable...That might be cheaper) and you only go from 2x2 to 6x6 with a 1616 dock...1820 dock gives 8x8...ADA8K seems the most prudent path...The 8x8 ADAT Spdif is always available on the EMU...
Done. Thanks again!
cgtrox ![]()
You're welcome...You going to like that box I think...
Don't forget Female XLR->Female TRS adapters or Female XLR->male TRS cables for the ouputs...It only have TRS on the inputs on that box...That's really the only thing about this box that makes curse just a little...
Well, mine has Firewire...
ADA8K it is! ![]()
cgtrox ![]()
Its all about the front end. Get a good converter, preamp and mic. Converters are tricky. It isnt simply a matter of bitrate. Some sound better than others. I'm a fan of the Alesis HD24 because of the quality of the converters.
call me stupid but what is a converter? my preamp is the UX2, i don't know anything about the card for it though.. I have people telling me what they have and that's useful information but what I really need to know is what I'm using.. How do I find that info?
The Analog Digital Converter...ADC...Most often it is right behind the preamp. I have no idea what they use in the UX2...I have never been able to find anything about the specific converters Line 6 uses in those POD studio interfaces...The UX8 actually has a few specs on there converters...Dynamic range is 125 db that's one of the numbers I look at...If you see something from 90-100 db, then usually it's a 16 bit interface pretending to be 24 bit interface...I tend to think that your UX2 has the same converters...The ADC is all about converting your performances into digital...That's what the UX2 does...
The Digital To Analog Converter...This is improtant also, because this the one of the analog outputs that is feeding your speakers or headphones for playback...This is also important if you like running a track out through an old analog processor and back in a gain...Every conversion will decrease resolution and the better the converters the less degradation...It happens faster than you think...and mastering reveals all...
You have both...What you have specifically I am not sure...But if you are liking the results, it does not matter really...I am sure the converters in there are good quality...Not Apogees, but then the UX2 did not cost $3000...
I see.. so is there anything I can buy to make the quality better? rather than another interface of course.
I think the best thing you can do would be good fundementals...
Use the shortest high quality cables that are practical...Good quality pickups in the guitar...good quality microphone...Not top shelf...Just something from the middle...
Record hot...The hotter you record, the better the signal to noise...In the days of 16 bit being pro you had to slam the converters and keep everything as hot as possible because you have only 95 db of dynamic range in 16 bit...You should have somewhere aroudn 120db of range recording in 24 bit...Basically, if I was recording 16 bit, I would likely put a peak limiter on the input so I could guard against clipping and run as hot as possible...At 24 bit I would try to hit -3db on the peaks...no limiter...
Do a little wav file analysis...Record something...check out what the peaks really are after you record it...You might find that you have a little more headroom than you thin you have...On the Behringer ADA8000, I have discovered that the peak indicator is 100% analog and starts to flash in around -1 db...However, high frequncy transisents like cymbal hits are so fast that the signal can actually clip without the light flashing...Learn what the meters on the UX2 really mean...When it's reading something like -3 db peaks, what does that really mean in the resulting audio file...
True. That's what I've been doing. I use a monster cable and 4 planet wave cables for my pedals ( which I rarely ever use ) Like you said.. record hot.. I def go to the limit on the meters.. I have emg 808 active pick ups which are great.. I have a lot going for me so it's all about the mixing.. now that I know a little bit more about recording and getting good tones I will apply the knowledge and get to work.. and when I'm not working on music I'll study up on some audio engineering books to extend the knowledge.. thanks again dude.. this a great blog.
Well, welcome to the chase then...As long as you know it never ends...We just keep chasing...I guess "tone dogs" would be a better term...
Is there anything out there in the guitar/software world that can give my guitar a much cleaner and fuller tone? please don't say a better interface.. line 6 ux2 has been really good to me and i'm also on a budget over here
A compressor can bring an instrument forward in the mix, giving it more punch (though I hate that word) or emphasis. There are a ton of VST compressors out there, and I'm sure you have a couple in your software. If they have presets, run through them and see which one comes close, then tweak to taste.
i use a UX2 on GarageBand. love the quality of the UX2 but i want my guitar too sound fat rather than thin. a well balanced meal. ( although a lot of fat can be bad ) high.. mid.. low.. the three parts of the pyramid. i want to pick from each part but i always end up indulging. to shape the right tone for clean, overdrive, distortion, there needs to be a diet at hand. a plan that works best for each tone. i have been experimenting with tones for awhile now but i'm still unpleased with my results. advice is what i need.
also, i'm sure i'll be asked this sooner or later.. my guitar of choice is an 8 string esp. i know.. i know.. but it's a great guitar. i'm using active emg pick ups.. sometimes they create a little bit too much noise. such as a crackle on distortion. it does interfere with the mixing process because the more treble i put on the guitar track, the more pronounced the crackle seems to be. it's annoying. anyone know how to eliminate this issue?
Well, one thing I noticed in your last post was the mention of highs...mids...and lows. The most important thing to remember when mixing is "how each instrument sits in the mix".... When creating a guitar tone to stand by itself, we tend to cover all the frequencies bass, mids and highs. And it sounds good! Really good! But, when you surround it with everything else it almost disappears! Why??
Every instrument in the band has their own job to do. There is a table of frequencies that shows where each instrument begins and ends in a mix. Here is a good one.... http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0400/OctaveEQ.htm If you apply the correct frequency to it's rightful owner, your mix will be cleaner, clearer and sound much better. After you get a guitar to "sit well" in the mix, take it out and listen to it solo. You will be surprised what it actually sounds like now! Not what you might think....
But, like I tell my son, "Love the sound of the band more than you love the sound of your own instrument" and you will do fine. In other words, don't mix with your guitar in mind, think of the song. Which brings me to another pearl I always remind him of, "Nobody is bigger than the song itself". That's for the guy in the band who has an enormous ego, we've ALL met that guy!
cgtrox ![]()
thanks man. the link led me to some great info. exactly what i needed.
I have a Subway Sandwich analogy. If you ask for extra mayo at Subway and the person behind the counter hates mayo, you'll probably have to say "more" a few times. A lot of mayo is a subjective request.
I do my best to get a balanced mix but I'm often thwarted by my clients. I can usually tell which band member mixed a project. It's the same with sound guys. I can usually tell which instrument the sound guy plays. The best ones I've worked with are non musicians. They are audiophile types. They listen to music as a whole instead of in parts like I do. I hear guitars and voices. I'm guilty of putting those in front too much.
Stay in the mix and in the know.
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