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3367 Views 14 Replies Latest reply: Feb 24, 2010 6:07 PM by DrBob737 RSS
abell1084 Just Startin' 10 posts since
Dec 22, 2008
Currently Being Moderated

Sep 4, 2009 11:18 AM

Stereo Sound in the PA in our Worship Hall

Hi Everyone:

 

I have been using only my left XLR out direct to the board for some time.  All of my panning (on my X3 Live and the PA) are directly in the middle (not left or right).  I am interested in trying to go stereo through the PA.  I think my tone is a little bit thin because of going mono, and sounds much better in my headphones (stereo) when practicing at home.

 

I imagine I will have to use the left and right XLR outs as well as two channels on the PA mixing board (one for left and one for right).

How should my panning be set on my XL3 and on the PA?

 

Thanks for any help!!

 

abell1084

  • ZemanG2 Just Startin' 65 posts since
    Nov 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 6, 2009 5:31 PM (in response to abell1084)
    Re: Stereo Sound in the PA in our Worship Hall

    Actually because you are going out XLR you are not going mono but stereo, the left right is easier instead of 1 and 2.

     

    I think Starton put a post up somewhere in this forum about an scientific effect about sound at certain levels peaking or plateuing. Basically you almost want the opposite effect when testing out a sound, in your head phones it should be super dry and thin, then when you crank up everything it will give you that robust sound. At least that is what I did. I leave my volume knobs on my pedal at max, my guitar at about 85% then I can mess with the drive if I care to, then the sound guy works his magic with a FULL non clipping sound, and works wonders.

      • ZemanG2 Just Startin' 65 posts since
        Nov 23, 2006
        Currently Being Moderated
        Sep 8, 2009 8:19 PM (in response to abell1084)
        Re: Stereo Sound in the PA in our Worship Hall

        uh no. 1 xlr out is a balanced stereo signal as I understand it, that is the difference between the MONO 1/4" jack. The XLR out has three pins, one is dedicated to a left signal and then a right signal then a grounding pin.

         

        The biggest thing is setting your pedal to the board. If you are lucky enough you should take your laptop in plug into gearbox and play with the sound guy making changes a needed. But XLR is a stereo line, so you should not need two XLR out signals, unless one is going to the PA and the other to a recording mixer.

        • kylemeans Just Startin' 2 posts since
          Sep 10, 2008
          Currently Being Moderated
          Sep 8, 2009 9:33 PM (in response to ZemanG2)
          Re: Stereo Sound in the PA in our Worship Hall

          Actually, XLR outputs are almost always mono.  XLR does have 3 pins like a stereo 1/4" connector, but instead of left and right it carries the mono signal and a reverse-polarity signal.  This method cancels out line noise and allows for much longer cable lengths.  Check out this link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XLR_connector

           

          As to the original poster's question, unless your church has a very talented sound engineer, I would recommend sticking with mono.  Occupying two channels on the board presents a host of problems for the sound guy/gal, and it's likely that it will be more trouble than it's worth.  Instead, try switching your MOD, DELAY and VERB effects to "pre" - this will force them to be mono so you're not missing half of the signal - and pan both tone 1 and 2 to center.  Once you've done that, you can use either the left or right XLR output, as they'll both have the exact same signal.  This will be much easier for your sound engineer to mix in with the other players and pan in the room.

           

          If you still feel like your sound is thin, that's because the frequency spectrum sounds very different at low levels (such as headphones) than it does at high levels (like during worship).  Check this link out for more info:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contours.  It all comes down to EQ... try lowering the MID, TREB and PRES levels and see what happens.

           

          Good luck!

           

          - Kyle

          • ZemanG2 Just Startin' 65 posts since
            Nov 23, 2006
            Currently Being Moderated
            Sep 8, 2009 10:00 PM (in response to kylemeans)
            Re: Stereo Sound in the PA in our Worship Hall

            THank you for the correction, I will now hunt down the man who told me otherwise and thusly share the info with him!

             

            But you are right about the EQ, I never thought about the position of the mod delay, I always have them at pre-mainly because I have no idea the difference really is, so I just leave them.

             

            So muchas thankas and to the original poster, my apologies for passing on bad information, I feel utterly terrible for that, well about the XLR bit, the EQ thing not at all.

             

            cheerios and fruit loops

             

            z

              • ZemanG2 Just Startin' 65 posts since
                Nov 23, 2006
                Currently Being Moderated
                Sep 13, 2009 9:34 PM (in response to abell1084)
                Re: Stereo Sound in the PA in our Worship Hall

                'll ask my sound guy tonight, but I think it ends up balancing your sound that is coming out of the speakers and having to deal with a second line. On our board my sound guy would literally beat me if I asked to run another line from my guitar. Because our speakers can only handle so much. We have  6 speaker set up, my guitar comes out of 4 But essentially he would have to monitor not just your levels but then the speaker levels etc, every time you increased your signal etc. If you want the FULL sound, you may want to try going super wet too. Since every venue is different there are too many variables. But the best thing is to buy your sound guy lunch or dinner take him to church and work on sound, and take something to edit your pedal, cheers all the best Ryan let us know how it works out.

                  • ZemanG2 Just Startin' 65 posts since
                    Nov 23, 2006
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Sep 15, 2009 3:29 AM (in response to abell1084)
                    Re: Stereo Sound in the PA in our Worship Hall

                    My sound guy said it depends on the board and how good your sound guy is. But a balanced line in should be fine, you shouldn't need to go stereo. That's all I got.

                    Cheers

                    Zem

                    • Jay_A Just Startin' 98 posts since
                      Sep 10, 2009
                      Currently Being Moderated
                      Oct 7, 2009 6:52 AM (in response to ZemanG2)
                      Re: Stereo Sound in the PA in our Worship Hall

                      I can see it from both sides of the board since I play guitar and run sound. The setting the faders the same on the left and right channel is not always correct. Boards have a knob at the top called gain. (I am going to simplify this just a little.) Basically, that is where you set your main volume for each channel. You use the faders to make minor changes in that volume. The gain would have to be set the same to get the same volume at the same fader levels. Even then, that might not always be the case.

                       

                      Each XLR is a mono signal as well as most of the channels on the board. In order for you to get a stereo signal, you would need to run both the left and right xlrs to the board. You could run them into their own mono channel (most often done and what I prefer doing) or could run them into a stereo channel on the board. It is a little more difficult for the soundman to run a stereo signal because the have to match the sound of the two channels with volume and pan. It is not that difficult, just takes practice and can be a little intimidating for some that has never dealt with stereo signals.

                       

                      If you are using any effects like the stereo chorus or ping pong delay you are only getting half your signal to the xlr left (or right) if you have the pod panned center and only using 1 xlr out. If you are going to take into account the stereo effects, pan your single effects center on the x3, but send both xlrs. Or you could pan the x3 left or right and only use that xlr out but you would loose the stereo effect.

                       

                      If you are using mono single tone patches from your x3, pan them hard left (or right) and use the left (or right) xlr out to send that signal to the board. In this way, you are getting 100% of your signal to that xlr and straight to the board.

                       

                      One thing you might want to discuss with your soundman is the use of 2 xlr channels if you are using the dual tones on a x3. This is especially true if they are running a stereo mix to the house. You could pan tone 1 to the left xlr out and tone 2 to the right xlr out and send each tone to its own channel on the board. That would give your soundman the ability to work with each tone independently. This would be ideal if you had 2 instruments or an instrument and vocal going through the x3. If you had both running into the board on the same channel, turning up the vocals would also turn up the guitar for example. With the vocals panned right and guitar panned left, and using both xlrs out, the soundman could adjust the signals independently. Same thing with the 2 different tones on a dual tone patch.

                       

                      I am not going to get into panning of live sound to much but, you basically want to give each sound its on space in the mix. If you run everything equally through the left and right, you can easily end up with a muddy mix very quickly. The only thing directly in the center is the main vocals and possibly a keyboard or kick and snare possibly. It all depends on the room you are playing in and the system setup. You just want to give each insterment its own room so it can cut through all the other instruments and be heard instead of sounding like a jumbled mess of sound.

  • ZemanG2 Just Startin' 65 posts since
    Nov 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 1, 2009 11:10 PM (in response to abell1084)
    Re: Stereo Sound in the PA in our Worship Hall

    All I know is that I have learned more about a sound board and the X3 Live than I ever thought I would in such a short time. Simple solution for anyone who is running into the house and getting a weak squeaky signal, simply add 12b to your line out. Well unless you really do want to run stereo out. I have been messing around with the manual and have found that my wimpy out signal can simply be changed by holding the "output" button for two seconds, from there you can change your line outs in more ways than I want to list. But check out chapter 6 in your manual and you may be shocked that you can get more sound out of your XLR and 1/4 line out that before. I hope that helps some of you, for me I now get "YOU ARE TOO LOUD!" and I barely have any volume coming out from my guitar (1) and only 45% from my pedal, I'm loving this rich sound, especially when recording.

     

    Cheers

  • DrBob737 Just Startin' 9 posts since
    Oct 2, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2010 6:07 PM (in response to abell1084)
    Re: Stereo Sound in the PA in our Worship Hall

    I have to agree with Jay_A on the issue of sounding like a mess. Stereo output from a Line 6 X3 or XT Pod live or M13 or even a Fractal Axe FX  for a great sounding electric guitar is fantastic and usually executed in a very large auditorium 20K concert system with digital separation. Let's look at the average church auditorium unless you are at Lakewood or something arena sized the biggest problem is "perceived" hearing by the congregation. If they are sitting on the left side of the hall they will miss the right side flange or chorus or echo or whatever you are trying to product in stereo. To the untrained non musician listener... guess what, they think there is something missing from your playing, if they can distinguish the guitar sound at any way possible.

     

    Just a thought

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