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7122 Views 23 Replies Latest reply: Nov 30, 2009 5:21 AM by Leftzilla RSS
bobbanana Just Startin' 1 posts since
Mar 23, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Sep 4, 2009 5:18 AM

Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

Hi all,

       I have a variax 700, I usually use slinky 9 / 42 strings and have my tremolo setup floating. I'm a college lecturer / recording engineer who has also set up guitars for over 20 years. The variax is a superb guitar in every way, apart from the most basic aspect........it will not stay in tune. I hope the guys at line 6 read this because it is staggering that such an amazing instrument has such a massive flaw. (the size of this massive flaw cannot be exagerated. A guitar which will not stay in tune is useless).

 

       The problem only exists if the tremolo is set to float (the whole point of a great tremolo like the LR Baggs unit....and the whole point of buying a variax 700 as opposed to the much cheaper 300). After using the tremolo, the tuning will be raised or lowered.....it will not come back to the correct pitch....ever. If you dive bomb or even just dip the pitch of a note on any string.....on releasing the tremolo bar the guitar will be flat by up to -12 cents. If you pull back on the tremolo bar to raise a note and then release the bar, the tuning will be up to 12 cents sharp. An interesting point is if you tune the guitar and play without tremolo......perfect tuning. This means the problem is not the machine heads.

 

 

 

Many people on the forums have suggested to each other the following, but I think I have found the reason....and nobody is going to like the answer.

 

 

Lube the nut - This in reality is not a solution. A well crafted nut will not need lube. The 'bone' nut on the variax 700 is not bone...a synthetic bone substitute maybe, but not bone. I've seen other people describe it as chewing gum it is so soft.

 

File / reduce the depth of the nut - At 5 mm the string contact with the nut is too great. Using a file to reduce this contact area down to 2.5mm is a good idea.

 

Install a new nut - a Gibson type drop in from graphtech or an earvana nut (£35 option).

 

Install a set of locking machine heads - Reducing the winds on the tuning post to a half turn improves tuning stability (£60+ option).

 

Increase string tension - changing to a heavier set of strings eg from a set of 9s to 10s (£5 option).

 

Increase spring tension - making sure you use all 3 springs on the rear of the tremolo.

 

Cut the 'condoms' off the springs - Variax is the first guitar i have ever seen with these fitted to the springs. I would love to know why they are fitted (Health & safety?) as you cannot operate the tremolo at all with them on.

 

 

The first thing I had to do setup wise was cut the plastic 'condoms' off the springs in the tremolo as they do not allow the tremolo to operate (literally) without a horrible crunching sound and feel. I have shaped the nut.....no difference. Tried heavier strings and resetup the guitar.....no difference. I usually use a set of 9s with 2 springs on the tremolo, so i tried a set of 10s with both 2 springs and then 3 springs on the tremolo.....no diference.

 

The problem seems to be constant no matter what you do to fix it in the area of machine heads / nut / strings and springs. The problem lies with the electronic cables connecting the tremolo/piezos to the brain unit in the guitar. If you look at the back of the tremolo with the cover removed you will see a thin cable and a ribbon cable attached to the tremolo. These cables go around the tremolo unit and through a hole in the body of the guitar to the brain section PCB.

 

If you watch the back of the tremolo closely as you operate it through its full range, first one way and then the other, you will notice the unit never returns to it original position due to the resistance of the cables/electronics. The stiff cables are in contact with the tremolo.

 

This is a serious flaw in the design of the instrument. A smaller light weight / very flexible connection between the tremolo PCB and the Brain PCB, which stays close to the base plate of the tremolo (which moves a short distance) and out of the way of the block/springs (which move a great distance) is needed.

 

The result of trying to acheive tuning stability with the tremolo floating, would for the average guitarist result in an extra £100 minimum to the price of the instrument, plus around another £100 in repeated setups and fitting of parts. Only to realise it is never going to happen.

 

This is a major disapointment as I have been sold a product which is superb in one way (sounds) and totally useless in another (staying in tune)....It is not fit for it's purpose!

 

I would love a reply from line 6 on this as the 700 is a professional instrument at a price of around £1000. I think line 6 know about this problem. None of the videos demonstrating the instrument on the line 6 website have any use of the tremolo unit. It is probably the reason why the guitars come with the tremolo mounted flat against the body when you buy them.

 

I would also like to know the purpose of the spring condoms?.....was that a bodge to help tuning stability?....in 30 years of playing guitar and 20 years of setting them up professionally I have never....ever seen any other guitar with these things fitted to the strings.

 

 

Come on line 6 guys, have the balls to reply to the customers who have commited to buying the flawed product and time/upgrades, searching for a variax 700  that stays in tune.

 

                                          

                                          Andy Smith                 www.myspace.com/humstrumbangtwang

  • Crusty_Old_Rocker Expert Line 6 User 2,737 posts since
    Jan 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 4, 2009 5:31 AM (in response to bobbanana)
    Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

    My Variax 700 stays in tune beautifully.

     

    I have set my trem to floating and have made no other modifications with the 1 exception of removing the condoms and changing the trem springs from | | |  to  / | \  like in a Strat.

     

    I don't dive bomb.  But I have never experienced any tuning problems.  I would suspect that there may be something wrong with your guitar or the set up you are using.

     

    I should also mention that I lock wind my strings on the tuning posts, I do this with all my guitars and have done for more than 30 years.

     

    Cheers,

     

    Crusty

  • Crusty_Old_Rocker Expert Line 6 User 2,737 posts since
    Jan 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 4, 2009 5:33 AM (in response to bobbanana)
    Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

    I believe the condoms were to stop the vibration of the springs being "heard" by the piezo pickups.

     

    Cheers,

     

    Crusty

  • Leftzilla Just Startin' 196 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 4, 2009 8:52 AM (in response to bobbanana)
    Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

    I also have my trem set to float and also have no tuning problems and I have the Planet Waves locking nuts.  In fact when the guitar came from the factory the trem was tightened so that it rested against the body.  I thought for sure it would take some time to get the trem balanced in a floating configuration but I was able to do it within 5 minutes.  I think Crusty is right that there is something wrong with your specific set up and is not a design flaw.

  • Spiderplayer Just Startin' 30 posts since
    Sep 23, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 4, 2009 12:20 PM (in response to bobbanana)
    Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

    Sorry to hear your problems. Before I bought my 700 I read some posts on this forum that this guitar doesn't stay in tune, the nut's garbage, the tuners are useless etc. etc. so I was fully prepared to but some locking tuners, get a luthier I know to make me a new nut etc. I've owned all sorts of guitars in my 30 years of playing, including Fenders, Gibsons, a Gretsch, PRS, Parker Fly etc. and my 700 is equal to any of them in its tuning stability and far superior to some (e.g. my 1963 Tennessean. If you want to try to keep that guitar in tune, good luck!). I've also built a couple of guitars and usually do my own set ups.

     

    My 700 doesn't go out of tune, the nut is cut perfectly (and believe me I'm ultra fussy about action and nut slots/height etc.), the action is perfect (I use regular Slinkys and I've set the trem to float). My guess is that your guitar is faulty. If it's still under warranty (or even if it's not), I would get it looked at by Line 6.

     

    Good luck!

  • DEyre Just Startin' 8 posts since
    Jun 3, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 13, 2009 6:15 AM (in response to bobbanana)
    Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

    Hi from Dave, yes same prob just had mine looked at the repairer filed the nut got it home and it's no differnt you pull the trem back slightly and it's anybody's guess what tune it's in ! Im at a loss.

    • amx05462 Power User 3,480 posts since
      Sep 1, 2008
      Currently Being Moderated
      Oct 13, 2009 2:41 PM (in response to DEyre)
      Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

      sounds  like  not enough spring tension. how  many springs  on  the  tremelo?  or   you need to replace   the nut  with a  roller nut  as pictured  above two posts  ago.

       

        one important thing  about a  two post  tremelo vs  a 6 screw one  is  both posts  must be of equal  height.

  • Jeummah Just Startin' 2 posts since
    Aug 23, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 12, 2009 7:38 PM (in response to bobbanana)
    Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

    Andy and Line 6 Dudes;

     

    I experience the same as you, Andy -- exactly. Whenever I use the tremelo I can count on the 3rd string to jump a half step and who knows what other ones will change. I did one thing differently -- I got a wide/thin Warmouth neck for it. It didn't fit with adequate action so I had to put a heavy pick betwixt the screws which works just dandy. Now if the thing would just stay in tune.

     

    Have you made any progress towards a solution?

     

    Thanks,

    Jim

    • amx05462 Power User 3,480 posts since
      Sep 1, 2008
      Currently Being Moderated
      Nov 13, 2009 2:42 AM (in response to Jeummah)
      Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

      go up a  few  posts  you can   check  some  soloutions.  also  if  your  going  to use  the  origonal  nut  it  should  be  lubricated tyr  tightening  the  tremelo  claw  to add  more  spring  tension.  you have  to be  sure  your springd  dont  bottom  out and  loose  tension  when  the  trem is  all  the  way  back  in its  zero  positionalso  some  people  put  the  strings  in a  v  configuration  but  from   what  i rad   that  gives  an uneven  tension..  lighter  strings  would  help.  if   tightening  the  claw  doesnt  do it   then  you may  have  to add  more  springs. also  thats  a  two point  pivot so the  pins  have  to be  equal  in  height or   it wont  work  right.

      • Silicon_Slinger Just Startin' 1 posts since
        Nov 17, 2009
        Currently Being Moderated
        Nov 17, 2009 9:57 PM (in response to amx05462)
        Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

        I too am having the exact same issue -- 3rd string goes sharp with trem use.  Conversely, the 3rd string will go flat after a good bend.  I had Planet Waves locking tuners and a Graph Tech nut installed by well regarded pros -- that did not solve the issue.  I put Fender Bullets on it and that didn't help either.  I have a Tremsetter on order, but I think that too will prove to be money down the drain and here's why.  I cranked up the spring tension so the bridge sat down on the guitar body and would not budge when I bent strings.  I tested it again  --  same problem: bending the 3rd string makes it go flat and using the whammy makes it go sharp.  I'm convinced there's something wrong with the bridge  --  but what?

  • KHGuitarFreak Just Startin' 9 posts since
    Feb 2, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 21, 2009 9:14 AM (in response to bobbanana)
    Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

    If you file the nut properly, it would work out just fine, like a regular vintage trem. Don't expect it to stay in tune if you are a massive user of heavy divebombs. Nevertheless, I reckon the guitar should have been designed with a headstock angled back more. Filing the nut would allow the string to now have less contact with the bottom of the slot, resulting in the high E string jumping out of its slot if picked hard. Hope that makes sense...

    • amx05462 Power User 3,480 posts since
      Sep 1, 2008
      Currently Being Moderated
      Nov 21, 2009 9:18 AM (in response to KHGuitarFreak)
      Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

      this might  help.

      Attachments:
      • DEyre Just Startin' 8 posts since
        Jun 3, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Nov 26, 2009 3:45 AM (in response to amx05462)
        Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

        took the condoms off filed the nut, graph nut, roller nut, Im going nuts ! the first post up top is on the money, my guitar tech & I both agree anything attached to the floating trem block ( electronics) will be a resistance, yes you may think it's staying in tune at first but after a while you will notice it go's out of tune because of the wire's attached to the block, I have to agree with post 1 that line 6 have produced the ultimate guitar for sounds but let everyone down with a trem system like that ! why didn't line 6 use a locking trem ? lots of ways to go with design there, If it were a car company would you not have a recall on a faulty part ? hmmm line 6 ? my next test will be tremsetter & step max.

        Dave.

        • amx05462 Power User 3,480 posts since
          Sep 1, 2008
          Currently Being Moderated
          Nov 26, 2009 4:31 AM (in response to DEyre)
          Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

          if  the  springs  on that  trem cant  bring it   back   then you dont  have  enough spring  tension. the  line 6   steup isnt  the  greatest  idea  but   those  little  bit   sohold  easily be  ovecrcome  with   proper   spring  tension.  the  trick  ( and  your  tech  should  know  this) is   not  to have  it  bottom out   if  the  springs  bottom out   theres  not  enough   tension  to pull the  trem  back  in place   .   they should  always  be  somewhat  stretched.  this  also  eliminates  that  kinda  hung  up feel.   if he  doesnt  know  that  then  you need  a  new  tech. also i have  to disagree  with  the  angling in of the  outer  springs  just my opinion. so try  tightening  the   spring claw screws  till theres  tension  in the   stop position. 

          • DEyre Just Startin' 8 posts since
            Jun 3, 2007
            Currently Being Moderated
            Nov 28, 2009 1:56 PM (in response to amx05462)
            Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

            Everything you've said has been done months before the fact of the matter is the stock standard trem of the variax 700 should have been tested before sale to the public, don't cover up for this company.

            • amx05462 Power User 3,480 posts since
              Sep 1, 2008
              Currently Being Moderated
              Nov 28, 2009 2:22 PM (in response to DEyre)
              Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

              im not  covering  up for  anyone.  no need  to .  the  fact of the matter  is  its  a  standard  tremelo.  all it takes  is  standard  ajustment.   i really dont  seee many complaints  about  it.    was  just trying  to help you but  obviously  you   dont  waant  to fix  it  as  much as  you just want  to be  right.  i cant  help you there.   being  right  is  all fine  and  well but it  doesnt  make  the  tremelo work  better.

               

                 there  are   alot  of  flaws   in the  variax  obviously  from reading   all the  posts  here  the  worse  flaw  is  the  crappy  pickups.   i can ****  and  moan  all day  and  night   .  that doesnt  make  them  better

               

                 so i changed  them  for  better  ones.  problem  solved  and  im still  right.  the  origonal  pickups  are  crap

               

               

                                                     maybe  you should  have  bought something  better....

              • DEyre Just Startin' 8 posts since
                Jun 3, 2007
                Currently Being Moderated
                Nov 28, 2009 3:57 PM (in response to amx05462)
                Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

                I have'nt had a problem with the pickups I think thay sound excelent

                • amx05462 Power User 3,480 posts since
                  Sep 1, 2008
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Nov 28, 2009 4:11 PM (in response to DEyre)
                  Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

                  well thats good   hopefully  you wont.

                • Nick_Mattocks Expert Line 6 User 8,791 posts since
                  Mar 26, 2007
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Nov 29, 2009 2:53 AM (in response to DEyre)
                  Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

                  Dave

                   

                  The trem on the Variax 700 may not be the best in the world, but it's no worse than a lot of others out there and a lot better than many of them.   Sure - it's not a Floyd Rose with locking nut etc... and will never be as stable but I have set my Variax 700 guitar up - something that ANY guitar needs when new and periodically throughout its life - and the trem is fine in terms of returning to pitch - even with some quite severe diving.  No I don't trust the Variax trem as much as I do the Floyd Rose on my three Ibanez RG guitars, but neither do I fully trust the trem on my American Standard Strat either or the Wilkinson trem on my patrick Eggle Berlin Pro.  ALL trem systems can be as tricky or easy to set up properly. 

                   

                  To say there was NO testing of the trem by Line 6 on the 700 range is almost certainly untrue.  Line 6 work with a lot of professionals within the company and from outside the company in developing and testing their products well before we get to see them - no different to most musical equipment manufacturers.   Sure over a long period of time occasionally inherent weaknesses in most products can show up and most companies acknowledge this and offer a fix or modification.  I don't think there's been any requirement re: the Variax 700 trem system to do this and as AMX said there aren't many complaints about the trem.  This is a community support forum and where other users can offer assistance as well as Line 6 staff, and as a support forum you will see all manner of problems or requests for help because that's what it's for.  The vast majority of users almost certainly don't participate in these forums and are happy with the kit they own.  Like you, I have no definite proof either way that the trem system was tested or not, but I believe that the trem system would have been just as thoroughly tested as every other part of the guitar's design by Line 6, their external manufacturers, their designers and a range of professional musicians.  What possible logical reason could there be for not Line 6 not testing their products before release?   Quality control issues, if there are any, are another matter perhaps...

                   

                  If you aren't getting the results you want from setting up the trem on your guitar yourself, why not take it to a good professional luthier who will either be able to confirm your guitar is impossible to set up properly  - in which case you should take it up with the dealer you purchased it from or Line 6 Technical Support, or most likely he/she will be able to get it exactly how you want it?  The likelihood of you actually having received a dud guitar is pretty low, but of course not impossible.

                   

                  Changing between different gauges of strings affects tension on the trem, ease of playability, nut slot width, overall intonation and tone.  Simply swapping to a different string set  gauge does not just mean that only the trem spring tension needs a tweak unfortunately.  There's a lot more to it in terms of ensuring that potential friction points are clean, smooth, wide enough (string slots in the nut), lubricated as appropriate and that strings are properly and evenly wound onto the machine heads, pre-stretched and tensioned.  Even if you 'think' you have all these points well covered, there's no harm at all in going back and double checking your previous work.  It's all about fine tuning and making small changes here and there - no-one should overdo any stage of setting up any guitar in any single step.  Lots of things are interdependent

                   

                  AMX and the others have made some very good suggestions as to how you can improve or cure the situation with your trem.  Sorry these suggestions aren't working for you, but they usually do work for most people.  My advice would be take the guitar to a professional and pay them - you won't regret it.  Think about it - nearly ALL big name professional guitarists tour with a professional guitar technician who will tweak their guitars before every performance as a matter of course and sometimes during the performance, so why should us non-professionals (by which I mean those of us who don't earn our main living by playing guitar) think we don't ever need professional help?  You want a professional job?  Get a professional to do it.

                   

                  Nick

                  • Leftzilla Just Startin' 196 posts since
                    Jan 25, 2007
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Nov 30, 2009 5:21 AM (in response to Nick_Mattocks)
                    Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

                    Well said!  I replied way back to this thread with some suggestions but the main point is that everyone uses or has different needs for the tremelo, i.e. preferred strings guages, application, locking tuner heads etc.  This is not something Line 6 can guess at.  When the guitar ships the tremelo is tightened to rest on the body.  When I purchased mine no one at th staore had set the guitar up via the tremelo.  I have had Floyd Roses in the past and i really thought that getting tremelo to float would be a real issue.  I was able to get it floating in about 5 minutes and stay stable in tuning.  I then modded the guitar with some planet waves locking tuners and the guitar became very stable in tuning with some pretty hefty dives.  I understand your frustration with the particular guitar and the problems you are having but nickmattocks is absolutely correct that you should have a professional set up done.  Every single guitar I have purchased goes immediately to a professional setup ( a guy I know that is familiar with what I like).  The only one that has never is my VARIAC 700 that one played and plays amazingly right out of the box.

  • DEyre Just Startin' 8 posts since
    Jun 3, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 28, 2009 2:03 PM (in response to bobbanana)
    Re: Variax 700 will not stay in tune?

    Everybody comes up with a way to fix this & that but the fact remains that no testing was done before release of this product, you should be able to put any gauge string on ajust springs and off you go !          ha!

    any idea's ? how are you going with your's ?

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