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Up to Discussions in M5 / M9 / M13
4492 Views 25 Replies Latest reply: Jan 12, 2010 1:34 AM by Line6RichRenken RSS
ignatius Just Startin'
ignatius
26 posts since
Aug 6, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Nov 14, 2009 6:53 AM

The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

I find that the single LCD on the M9 makes for a very limiting user interface. You've gotta have a damn good memory to essentially memorize what you've placed in any of six slots in six, or even worse 24, different scenes because the M9 does virtually nothing to help you know what's where ("Hmm, is that blue light in the top row of the second slot of scene 4 a flanger or a chorus? And which delay is that green light?" - this is not an easy decision process in the middle of a gig when someone calls a tune, or even in the middle of a song). I like my M9 and I've decided to keep it, but this limitation was almost a deal breaker for me.

 

To be honest, I think the user interface is a fundamental design flaw of both the M9 and M13. I mean come on, an LCD that displays a small black font on a blue background for crying out loud? Figure that the average player is nearly six feet away from that display or more if you're leaning back or whatever, and it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize that it's going to be hard to read. To me, Line 6 has designed a performance-based product that has a UI more suited to desktop use.  What other pro-level, floor-based unit has such a tiny and unreadable display? 

 

I think Line 6 should have incorporated either a second, easy to read LED display (too late for that, obviously) or they should somehow configure the existing LCD/LCD's to display a larger font on a lighter backround. Maybe a user-definable scene name that scrolls in the window or something like that.   With the M9's single LCD this is particularly important.

  • nicjimbass Just Startin'
    nicjimbass
    24 posts since
    Mar 28, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 14, 2009 7:05 AM (in response to ignatius)
    Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

    Wow, nothing like bashing a company on it's own forum. Classy.

     

    From the sound of your post, you have yet to gig with your M9/M13, correct? I'm one who has gigged my M13 alot, and I've never had a single problem with the LCD screens, whether it be seeing them or remembering what is in what spot.

     

    As far as saying that the units are better used in a desktop rig, tell that to the pros out there using these live everyday. The 2 bands that come to mind right off the bat are Thrice and Dead By Sunrise. I'm pretty sure at that level they could go the Bradshaw route or whatever, yet they go with the M13. Honestly, I'm cool with you giving your opinion, but, respectfully, I think you're off the mark.

    • ignatius Just Startin'
      ignatius
      26 posts since
      Aug 6, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Nov 14, 2009 7:43 AM (in response to nicjimbass)
      Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

      Respectfully -- relax, bud.  Nowhere in my post did I show any disrespect for the company.  It's not bashing, not even close, it's called constructive feedback in hopes the Line 6 is paying attention.    And I know they do as evidenced by Rich's presence here (and Hugo et al).  I'm not entirely suprised that any type of constuctive criticism would be misconstrued as bashing by Line 6 fans.  These forums are for fan boys and also for constructive discussion.  Perhaps it's lack of class to admonish someone for using the forums for their intended purpose, eh?

       

      I've done about ten gigs with my M9 (it just came out in October), not sure if that's "a lot" by your definition and perhaps I'll become more accustomed to the whole memorization thing as I gig it more.

       

      I never said there weren't pros using it (although I've never heard of either band you referenced) but yes, I've heard the whole Smashing Pumpkins story and I'm sure there are other pros using it too.  We did a gig with an up and coming band out of Chicago a few weeks ago and he had an M13, so yeah, I know the M13 LCD works just fine for some, even many, users including yourself.  But I still question the practicality of such a small display/small font/black font on dark colored background on a floor unit and typically I think other pro units have displays that are much better at providing essential information to the user.  The M9 is far more limited than the M13 in providing that information, and my point is that perhaps Line 6 should consider creative alternatives for the LCD implementation.

       

      Although I've never used one, even the POD X3 Live has a far more readable display.

      • nicjimbass Just Startin'
        nicjimbass
        24 posts since
        Mar 28, 2009
        Currently Being Moderated
        Nov 14, 2009 12:03 PM (in response to ignatius)
        Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

        The disrespect I see in your post is saying how Line 6 missed the mark and how the finished product has a design flaw. Granted, it's not perfect, but I'm sure in order to hit a certain price point with these pedals, some things had to be toned down. The attitude behind saying such things seems to be one of knowing more than the people who get paid to make this stuff. It's easy to say stuff like that in the internet, but putting it into practice, ie, being hands-on inside the company is a whole new ballgame.

         

        There are apparently links somehwere on the site that will allow you to send in any sort of ideas/ suggestions you have as to what Line 6 should do in the future. The forum isn't that outlet, even though many people use it as such. Rich and the gang do hang out here alot, but whenever something like this comes up, they direct people to the proper channel, as they really have no say in the matter (IIRC).

         

        I don't consider myself a Line 6 fan boy or even a fan, really. I dig the M13. I've been through a bunch of other L6 stuff that didn't do it for me, at all. As far as the pro's go, I mentioned them simply because they play music for a living, on a daily basis, and this is a good enough unit for them, and yet because it's not perfect for you, it's cool to come onto the forum and voice your displeasure. Like I said, there are avenues to take your displeasure down, but the forum won't do much, if anything to help you out.

         

        I guess bottom line is this: Line 6 has done their homework, and I think the cost to return ratio is outstanding for both the M9 & M13. If it's not enough for you, there are other options out there, albeit more expensive, but they're out there.

        • creekhed Just Startin'
          creekhed
          41 posts since
          Oct 21, 2009
          Currently Being Moderated
          Nov 14, 2009 12:36 PM (in response to nicjimbass)
          Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

          While I do have trouble seeing the displays on my M13 clearly without bending down...and I do think they could be bigger...I think OVERALL the M13 (and M9) are EXCELLENT products. I really have to look for something to gripe about (Pardon the Pun!)

           

          A SOLID ***A*** in my gradebook. (Slightly bigger SCREENS would bring it to an A+)

        • ignatius Just Startin'
          ignatius
          26 posts since
          Aug 6, 2007
          Currently Being Moderated
          Nov 15, 2009 7:19 AM (in response to nicjimbass)
          Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

          I respect your remarks, but I also respectfully disagree with them.  This is a discussion forum, and I posted a topic for discussion.  According to your logic, we shouldn't post anything critical here because L6 has worked hard to design and produce a product at a given price point.  That just doesn't make sense.  I'd like to think that L6 would absolutely want to see this kind of discussion here, not only to help them improve future updates to the M13/9 but also to consider what users want in other future products as well.   And frankly, with all due respect to L6, I don't care if they assigned 100 people and a million dollars to a product - if they miss the mark with I think I have a right to say so after spending my hard earned bucks on it.

           

          The other reason I posted the discussion topic is to stimulate discussion to see if other users feel the same way or maybe have arrived at some way of working with the UI's limitations that I haven't thought of.

           

          I still say that the M9 is a very good product and it makes some gorgeous sounds, but I think some things could have been done better with the UI.

           

          To be fair though, I thought about this some more as I was using it at last night's gig and also while I was on the can this morning looking at the latest Musician's Friend catalog .  There are a quite a few floor based effects that identify a patch using a number in a large LED display.  It occurred to me that while that would be a larger and easier to read display, you'd be faced with sort of the same challenges - in other words, you'd have to just know or remember what is in patch "46".

           

          Another poster here said something to the effect that you just have to suck it up and memorize what's where.  Maybe that's the only real solution.

           

          But I'd still love to see something on the M9 that allows you to name a scene (say, ten characters), and when you select a scene it displays a large scrolling font in the M9's LCD using the light blue background, similar to what you see when you enter or exit looper mode.  Not sure if that's the perfect solution but it would help.  There might even be room for two rows, non scrolling, but a larger font on a light blue or white background would make it a whole hell of a lot easier.

  • kruzty Just Startin'
    kruzty
    27 posts since
    Jun 28, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 14, 2009 7:42 AM (in response to ignatius)
    Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

    If you want more LCDs, why not go with the m13?  I don't have an m9, but I think the user interface is what really set the m13 apart from anything else.  It is so easy to use - you don't have to think about it when changing parameters.  Anything else in its class you have to go through menus, worry about saving, and you still usually only have one display that tells you what things are.  The only way it could be much better (from a UI perspective) is if it had a display for every button, and that's just not practical.

     

    I think if you use it awhile it will become more intuitive to use with regards to knowing what effects are where.  Otherwise, I suggest springing for the m13 and get the extra LCDs.

  • osvijazz Just Startin'
    osvijazz
    29 posts since
    Nov 11, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 14, 2009 3:52 PM (in response to ignatius)
    Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

    I understand your post and I'm going to say what I think because all of my requests have been answered on the M9, Chorus volume, (although it's still boosting, not to much though) better knob response and instant tuner. It's very hard to memorize what is where. I have one scene that I don't change too much plus another one for those less used fx. I label them A & B with big, legible words or abbreviation. You are right in that words in the lcd display are way small. I can see them while setting parameters but not while playing. I would suggest line6 to do an "fill the whole screen type of font" that would come up a few seconds after tweaking your sound. That would be very nice especially for the M13 users.

     

    Other than that I think this is such a nice piece of gear, very usable. So, is anyone listenning/reading at the office???

    • cgtrox Expert Line 6 User
      cgtrox
      1,442 posts since
      Jan 25, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Nov 14, 2009 9:13 PM (in response to osvijazz)
      Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

      osvijazz wrote:

       

      I would suggest line6 do a "fill the whole screen type of font" that would come up a few seconds after tweaking your sound. That would be very nice especially for the M13 users.

       

      Other than that I think this is such a nice piece of gear, very usable. So, is anyone listenning/reading at the office???

      That's one thing you can count on is them listening. That is a great idea bro, it would be very cool for live use. Also, make that same font pop up for one second when you change effects so you will know what it is when you change it. Just the full name of the effect would be good, like "TRI CHORUS","HARMONIZER", "80A FLANGER", etc.

       

      cgtrox

  • phil_m Expert Line 6 User
    phil_m
    3,076 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 14, 2009 6:18 PM (in response to ignatius)
    Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

    I think the M13 interface is actually darn near perfect, honestly.  It is easy to program, and it's intuitive. The M9 is a little harder to get used to just because they scrunched a whole lot of stuff in a little package.  I've used the M13 live for over a year, and I have to say the LCD have never been an issue.  This weekend I was actually just playing at a bigger gig and the stage was very bright, and I could see the LCDs fine.  They are actually easier to read when it's darker.  The other thing is that when I'm playing live, I don't typically need to look at the LCDs that much.  I'm paying more attention to the LEDs above the switches.

  • jack_cass Just Startin'
    jack_cass
    116 posts since
    Mar 31, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 14, 2009 7:30 PM (in response to ignatius)
    Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

    I actually think one of the big things that Line 6 has done right with pretty much all of their gear is the interface. Have you ever used any BOSS modeling stuff? That's horrible. Compare the ME-70 with the M13/M9 and I think you have to say the Line 6 gear wins the interface battle hands-down.

     

    The bottom line is you've just got to know where everything is. If that's too difficult (maybe you're doing a bunch of covers in different styles, or maybe your band is just all over the place with crazy effects), then maybe using latch scene mode is the option for you?

  • geeker Iknowathingortwo
    geeker
    1,138 posts since
    Jan 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2009 8:15 AM (in response to ignatius)
    Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

    most guitarists tweak before they hit the stage. do final adjustments during soundcheck. I never tweak during a show unless I absolutely have to....

    • creekhed Just Startin'
      creekhed
      41 posts since
      Oct 21, 2009
      Currently Being Moderated
      Nov 15, 2009 8:38 AM (in response to geeker)
      Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

      I'm constantly tweaking....little bits. A little less gain here, a little more depth there...etc...

       

      That's one of the things I REALLY like about the M13...I can tweak on the fly with next to no effort.

       

      Stupid is is stupid does

      • geeker Iknowathingortwo
        geeker
        1,138 posts since
        Jan 26, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Nov 15, 2009 11:04 AM (in response to creekhed)
        d

        I know, it's like having actual stomboxes in front of you...... you have to bend down and tweak those too.....right?

        • ignatius Just Startin'
          ignatius
          26 posts since
          Aug 6, 2007
          Currently Being Moderated
          Nov 15, 2009 12:17 PM (in response to geeker)
          Re: d

          Absolutely.  But my post isn't about tweaking the effects, it's about remembering which effects you've assigned to which slots inside each scene.

          • stumpsout Just Startin'
            stumpsout
            877 posts since
            Jan 28, 2007
            Currently Being Moderated
            Nov 15, 2009 7:00 PM (in response to ignatius)
            Re: d

            big font option would be cool.

            I can't always remember which blue or green or orange or yellow effect I had chosen for that slot

             

            ..actually..custom character naming combined with big font would rock!!!!

            • Nick_Mattocks Expert Line 6 User
              Nick_Mattocks
              8,791 posts since
              Mar 26, 2007
              Currently Being Moderated
              Nov 16, 2009 12:20 AM (in response to stumpsout)
              Re: d

              Yep! A big font with abbreviated name would do it.  I have the M13 BTW

               

              In reality, I tend to keep the same core effects in each bank in each scene and pre-tweaked, but with different settings depending on the scene, so it's fairly easy to remember what the 12 presets in each scene are.  I realise that everyone does things in their own way and that the M13 offers a lot of flexibility but I don't tend to change scenes too much anyway.  I like to keep things relatively simple and just because I have all this flexibility I don't have to use all of it all of the time.  I actually find the LED button colours help a lot too, but can see why perhaps they might not help everyone.

               

              It's a minor thing - off topic and probably just personal to me, but I would like Line 6 to add an option of changing the preset switching mode so that when say moving from preset: Bank 1, preset C to Bank 1, preset A, pressing the prest A switch would simply toggle back to the previous setting of Bank 1, preset C.  Reason: big feet and it's easier and more accurate to use the front row of buttons than having to step over onto the third row in .

  • Line6RichRenken Product Dev
    Line6RichRenken
    1,891 posts since
    Apr 19, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2009 12:38 AM (in response to ignatius)
    Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

    First of all, everyone, thanks for keeping this forum respectful. Let's all be real careful to read each other's post in the best possible light. There are very few "trolls" here at these forums, so let's all read each other post believing that the poster is positive, respectful, and as excited about their Line 6 gear as we are.

     

    I just go the Verizon Droid and I love it!!! But, the Voice Dial is awful. Compared to any phone I have had for the last 5 years, the voice dial is awful. My Motorola RaZr had awesome voice dial. This phone doesn't work with my blue tooth. How did they miss that and put the phone out. I am sure they didn't miss it and I bet it gets worked out in an update. So I posted about it on their boards, because I want the phone to be even better. And so far, it kicks butt.

     

    So I know how you feel ignatius. I did not take it as disrespect at all. These units will not change mechanically. When we designed it, we thought of them as pedals on a pedal board. So as far as the screens not being readable from a standing position, that was never the intention. Just like with real pedals, you bend down to adjust them and tweak your sound. When standing you look at your real pedals to see if the LED is on or off, you bend down to see how it is set. We used the LCD from PODxt. It was a cost move and a space move. Again, we wanted it to vibe tight and clean. Also with M9 I had a firm requirement that it be as close to the size of a DL4 as possible. You sound like you might be better off with an M13. More LCDs, you can name your scenes, etc.

     

    As far as the problem of remembering where you put the effects, you have suggested some good things and a few other guys suggested good things, you have to go and post them here. http://line6.com/company/contact/productFeedback

     

    We do monitor that link. And as you guys have said, we are listening. I just hope Verizon is too.

    • osvijazz Just Startin'
      osvijazz
      29 posts since
      Nov 11, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Nov 17, 2009 6:06 AM (in response to Line6RichRenken)
      Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

      Respectfully disagree. Look at a Boss Tremolo pedal, the name is as big as the M9/M13 screen itself, if not bigger. Obviously parameters font don't have to be nearly as big because you need to be close to tweak your settings and I don't need too see those parameters while playing. The point here is to be able to see the name of the effect you just selected. Btw, I don't use the looper live, yet it's very clear to me (M9 at least) when I turn it on or off...those are legible letters. Also, I had the M13 and now I have the M9 not only because of the smaller size but because of the fact that I'ts a little easier to remember 6 fx's than 12.

       

      So, how about doing it the looper way, where it clearly tells you loop on/off with big fonts for a few seconds...do that but with the last selected fx!!!

  • emannuelrojas Just Startin'
    emannuelrojas
    2 posts since
    Jan 5, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 11, 2010 5:24 PM (in response to ignatius)
    Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

    There is a demo on youtube of the m13 by guitar world.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuYEWYSnhnc

     

    In this one Paul sticks some tape with the effect name on top of each FX slot. I know its DIY and not a solution from line 6, but i think it gives the ultra modern m13 an old school/bad *** look.

    If youre a live musician then I assume you have a chain FX order, so naming the slots should be easier.

     

    Just a tip.

    • ignatius Just Startin'
      ignatius
      26 posts since
      Aug 6, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 11, 2010 7:31 PM (in response to emannuelrojas)
      Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

      Hey, I'm the guy who started this thread.  I've had the M9 since October and I've done probably 20 gigs or so with it.   While it's true that you could ask 50 people their opinion of the M9 UI and get 50 different answers, I'd no longer go so far as to say that Line 6 missed the mark as I did in my starting thread.  I've grown accustomed to the user interface.

       

      I think it holds true that with any piece of gear that's as flexible and powerful as the M9, you're going to have to spend some time to devise your own system for using it.  In a certain sense it is an "open" design in that regard.   I've arrived at a method for organizing my scenes and effects, and now it's really not a big deal to move around on it while performing.   Yes, it's a change for those like myself who were used to separate stomps but once you get comfortable with where you've put things in the M9 it becomes second nature.

    • amalgam Just Startin'
      amalgam
      10 posts since
      Apr 3, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jan 11, 2010 10:14 PM (in response to emannuelrojas)
      Re: The M9 user interface - Line 6 missed the mark

      Thanks, great tip! I still need to figure out how to use the scenes in the best way AND how to work my way through/around them.

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