Nov 15, 2009 10:19 PM
Problems getting Superior Drummer 2.0 to work with iMac & Cubase4LE
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| I have barely started multi-track recording on a computer after using a Roland VS-880 & Korg D3200 hard disc recorders for years. I just bought Superior Drummer 2.0 (S2.0) yesterday and had a difficult time downloading all of S2.0 and all of the related items. I have never used drum software in a computer until yesterday. I have a new iMac with almost a terrabyte of free disc space. First, I downloaded all of S2.0 & related items & updates off the toontrack website, no problem. Not sure if it was OK to download all of that internet stuff first. Then I downloaded DVD Disk #1 for S2.0, no problem, I think that was the disc where I went for the full 20 gig version. After about an hour of downloading, it said to insert Disk #2, so I ejected Disk #1. It kept spitting out S2.0 disk #2 after I would put it in the computer. So, for the first time I tried putting the blue EZDrummer/EZPlayer pro/Claustrophobic EZX/Twisted EZX DVD disk #1 in the computer. It spit that disk out twice. So I went back to trying to download S2.0 disk #2. After many tries, I eventuaully downloaded that disk #2 (its files) into an empty 00000@_SUPERIOR LIBRARIES file folder. I did a similar thing with S2.0 disk #3, #4, and #5. I couldn't get S2.0 to open, so I downloaded the smaller (less than 10 gig version) of S2.0 from S2.0 disk #1. Then it said to download S2.0 disk #2, and I did that after several attempts (after spitting out the DVD repeatedly). It didn't say to download S2.0 disk #3, #4, or #5. Once again I tried to download the blue EZDrummer/EZPlayer pro/Claustrophobic EZX/Twisted EZX DVD disk #1 in the computer. It spit that out twice, so I gave up on that. I am using Cubase LE4. Here are my iMac specs (with Snow Leopard 10.6.1): Model Name: iMac Model Identifier: iMac9,1 Processor Name: Intel Core 2 Duo Processor Speed: 3.06 GHz Number Of Processors: 1 Total Number Of Cores: 2 L2 Cache: 6 MB Memory: 4 GB Bus Speed: 1.07 GHz Boot ROM Version: IM91.008D.B08 SMC Version (system): 1.45f0 I can open Toontrack solo OK, and it can play the different Grooves OK. When I go to a MIDI folder, there are the following files: 000@_EZ_PLAYER, 002@EZPLAYER_PRO_MIDI, 20@_USER_LIBRARIES, MY MIDIFILES, but they are all empty. In Cubase LE4, it says Superior Drummer is the VST Instrument. On Toontrack solo Library, it only has S1 - Drummer, S1 - Percussionist, S1 - Cocktail, and N.Y. Avatar. I can't figure out how to set the paths for dfh Superior, Custom & Vintage, and Vintage add-on. Can't get toontrack drums to play within Cubase recorded song. HELP PLEASE!!! After 3 more attempts I got the iMac to accept the blue EZDrummer/EZPlayer pro/Claustrophobic EZX/Twisted EZX DVD disk #1 without spitting it out. I tried to download it over 10 times & it gives me this message every time: "! The installation failed. The Installer encountered an error that caused the installation to fail. Contact the software manufacturer for assistance." When I bought S2.0, Guitar Center handed me a box with 7 DVD's in it: 5 for S2.0 and 2 blue ones. One blue one: EZDrummer/EZPlayer pro/Claustrophobic EZX/Twisted EZX DVD disk #1. The other blue one: Drumkit From H ell EZX/Latin Percussion EZX/Vintage Rock EZX/Nashville EZX Disc 2. Is it necessary to download the EZDrummer to get S2.0 to work? I didn't pay for EZDrummer separately. Did Guitar Center accidently give me EZDrummer for free? | |
first, what you buy at guitar center is a bundle of locked DVDs and a license to install a particular product from that bundle. i believe you should have gotten a special receipt with instructions for activation--it's been awhile since i installed S2.0 (i can check mine when i get home if you like)--my understanding is: THE RECEIPT IS THE PRODUCT THE CRAP IN THE BOX IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT IT! if you didn't go through all of that i would guess that this is your problem. you should be able to install Solo, EZplayer (?) and the S2.0 plugin plus the MirZ MIDI loops which may be a seperate install/download--everything else that you received would have to be purchased to activate it. if activation isn't your problem, I would recommend installing standard out-dated S2.0 first then updating--only because that's the path i took and didn't have any issues. I don't think i'm on the latest revision just because i haven't had time but i have updated twice to my knowledge without any issues. Also, i don't recall downloading hours and hours of anything--the sample library doesn't change, it's just the interface that they update from time to time.
pbear,
Thank you for responding!! I did get the receipt you are talking about. I did get authorization for S2.0, but not EZDrummer (I did not pay for EZDrummer). To me it is very strange you purchase several DVD's, but some you can't use. Why do they bother to give them to you then? It must be cheaper that way, but to me it is illogical & confusing. I spent hours trying to download EZDrummer because I was beginning to think it was necessary to get S2.0 to work. Can you audition 1000's of S2.0 drum patterns without opening the host (in my case Cubase LE4)? I got the EZPlayer to work, and it has a few dozen drum patterns, but not very many. Did you download the 20 gig version where you can do mic bleed & that sort of thing? Does it matter if I downloaded the internet updates before downloading the DVD's? I have yet to get to where you can take a drum pattern & edit it, or create a drum pattern from scratch.
i guess the deal with giving you a bunch of products that you can't use without purchasing is the best way that they have to distribute upgrades without requiring huge downloads. basically "here, this is our entire product line, if you want to unlock it just buy the key from us--you already have the files." just ignore it--get the stuff that you paid for to work right?
so, ignore EZdrummer. S2.0 should work all on it's own.
also, on my initial installation which i purchased approximately a week after it was available, i didn't have to download anything--you may be imagining that it's a download because it's copying an a$$load of data from a DVD--forget your typical software installation from a CD, this is literally an a$$load of files from a full-on DVD. yes, i did the full install with mic bleed and the hole bit.
i don't know if it matters whether you get the latest version first or not. my experience was with buying the original dvd, installing it then upgrading as the new releases came out. there certainly shouldn't be any issues with doing it this way as opposed to having the latest update first--unless, of course, you are on Snow Leopard and Toontracks has special instructions for Snow Leopard. i'm still on Tiger so I can't help you with OS issues--except that i did install Solo on my wife's Leopard macbook without issues.
so, my installation of S2.0 basically gave me:
Solo: works great as a standalone drum module for when i don't want to open my DAW to play some drums--the stupid thing is that the file-types for the kits is different from S2.0 which makes absolutely no sense to me. you have to set up a Solo kit AND a plugin kit just to get the same kit standalone? weird. the good news is that the kits are sooo sweet that it's worth a little extra effort.
S2.0 (AKA Superior Drummer) plugin (i believe both AU and VST versions installled--Garageband doesn't seem to recognize it so i can't verify the AU part): to me the primary reason for buying the box--i have drum pads so i was looking for an upgrade to my crappy Yamaha dtxpress brain sounds (man, what an upgrade to my crappy Yamaha dtxpress brain sounds!.) it should work as a standard VSTi (Virtual Studio Technology Instrument).
EZplayer pro: this is the loop player that should be used to drive an S2.0 track. i have to be honest with you, i've only opened this once or twice before tonight just to see what it does. it seems to be a sort of proprietary midi loop player but, because it doesn't link up with the DAW that it's in to follow Play, Stop, Rewind and other position related commands (to my knowledge anyway) it's more of a glorified browser for the included loops--i just figured out that you can drag and drop the loops into your actual DAW tracks and go from there which is much more useful than having a separate player. to do this i guess you just drag one of the variations to an instrument track (one with S2.0 waiting to do it's dirty work preferably) then copy, cut, paste, loop etc. to build yourself a drum track. i don't know exactly how many "grooves" installed--if you drill down to all of the variations there seem to be quite a pile of them. i believe that i download the MirZ stuff but i don't know that it's showing up in the browser--usually that just means that you have to teach the browser where they have been installed--i notice that the Menu drop-down has an Add Path function. i will take a look and clue you in if i find anything.
i'm sorry if it seems that i've downplayed the coolness of EZplayer and the loops--if you don't have pads they seem like a good place to start--i especially appreciate the fact that you can separate the grooves down to the individual kit pieces allowing you to mix and match as you please. with the new knowledge that these can be brought into your DAW as MIDI which opens them up to editing is pretty sweet indeed.
also--you may be thinking that this whole computer DAW thing is just way too much for you, admittedly you bit off quite a chunk with Superior. hang in there, this is definitely not typical of most VST installations--the good news is that S2.0 is in a pretty lofty class of plugin instruments so it's worth a little learning curve.
o.k. so i did upgrade to the latest version of S2.0--took just a few minutes to download and install (including the updates to AVATAR samples which should be installed after the S2.0 update)--it does not require installation of the original DVDs btw. very nice upgrade because it includes a groove player which, as nearly as i can tell, makes learning EZplayer pointless--you can audition loops within S2.0 and drag-n-drop them into your host edit and go. just forget EZplayer--at least for now. the one thing that EZplayer will do is give you a place to compose layered performances (i.e. kick drum from this groove, hats from that groove and toms from a third groove--compile them and then drag them into your host) where the S2.0 GROOVES function is simply a preview and drag-n-drop site. i guess that EZplayer could be useful--there is a little trick that i just figured out that allows you to audition grooves from EZplayer>S2.0 and still play MIDI clips (from your host) through S2.0 as well (we can cover that later.) interesting stuff. let me know if you have any questions.
how are you like the sound of the Tascam compared to your Korg(?)?
pbear,
Thank you for responding!! After fiddling around with Cubase & S2.0 for a combined total of about 30 hours, I had a major break through!!!!!!! I was able to successfully drag & drop patterns into Cubase and S2.0 is playing properly within Cubase!!!!! Fantastic!! Hard for me to compare audio with Korg D3200 & this new computer set-up. Earlier, I just recorded some crappy test guitar & keyboards in Cubase just learning how to use it. At this point I was hoping to turn my computer into a glorified drum machine & then work mostly with the D3200. Haven't figured out how to sync Cubase with any of my external hardware yet. Perhaps you could tell me if & how you can edit a drum pattern after it's plopped into the host/Cubase.![]()
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Edit: I was ready to buy EZDrummer at Guitar Center for $140, but they had Superior Drummer 2.0 for only $10 more!!
congratulations! i haven't used Cubase since 3.71(?) so i can't help with with external syncing other than to say that it's possible and should be covered in the manual--look for MMC (midi machine control) and MTC (midi time code)--i also recall that the Cubase forum was a pretty helpful community as well.
$150 for Superior?! great deal--another early adopter gets screwed--i paid full gotta-have-it msrp!
pbear,
Thanks! I think S2.0 sounds great except I hear slight phaseyness (like a phaser) in all of the cymbals. Not sure why. Have you experienced that? Any way to defeat that? I played around with some of the mixer effects, but it didn't go away. I haven't noticed if you can get higher bits or higher kHz sampling or whatever.
i haven't really experienced any noticeable phase issues--i will certainly give it a close listen and let you know. Have you tried isolating the different ambient mics to see if one of the room mics might be out of phase with the others?--Toontrack swears that everything is perfectly phase aligned but marketing is marketing. There is a choice of 16 & 24 bit depths--it's available in the lower right of the interface and, i believe, defaults to 24bit. i actually run 16 bit just to keep the RAM and CPU usage down--it seems to allow me to do more with lower latency which i need because i'm triggering--i figure i can always flip back to 24 bit for rendering. I don't believe you have a choice of the sample rate and i also don't know if your DAW up/down samples to play at the session rate or if all DAWs are capable of multi-rate playback. i suppose you could look into the native sample rate of S2.0 samples (i don't think it's published though--it may even be variable depending on the instrument) and match that in your DAW to see if it's a dithering-type issue. this could also be related to the quality of your converters and/or clock source--i would refer you to BlackLionAudio if you want to learn of the horrors of bad clocks. a good test would be to burn a sample to a CD and play it on some other gear--all internal processing on the DAW end would eliminate your Tascam as the source of the problem.
aaron__aardvark wrote:
pbear,
Thanks! I think S2.0 sounds great except I hear slight phaseyness (like a phaser) in all of the cymbals. Not sure why. Have you experienced that? Any way to defeat that? I played around with some of the mixer effects, but it didn't go away. I haven't noticed if you can get higher bits or higher kHz sampling or whatever.
AA --
I have no experience whatsoever with any of the products you're using, but the problem you're describing is one I've encountered a time or two in various circumstances. I agree w/ pbear -- there's probably either a room mic that's not quite in phase with the source mic, or there might be another issue -- sometimes when I set up a complicated routing structure, I'll accidentally double track one of the signals -- this results in that same phasey-ness that you're describing. So be sure that none of the cymbal sounds are being sent to any more than one track.
This will typically show itself if I route one signal to a track with no fx and then accidentally also route it to a track w/ fx -- the timing and slight signal variances create the phasing and will really kill a nice track.
Good luck, congrats on making the jump to computer based recording. Once you get it all sorted, I'm guessing you won't go back to the outboard recording.
Cheers,
Fester2k
i was only able to give this a quick test at moderate levels and i don't claim to have the best ears but, again, i wasn't able to pick up on any phasing issues--i have to say that every time i listen to S2.0 samples i'm comparing them to the $hit sounds eminating from my Yamaha Dtxpress module. i first soloed the primary overhead mic channel and everything sounded nice and clear, crisp, nothing unnatural. then i switched back to the full mix (i believe that i'm using all but one of the ambient mic channels but i can verify that tomorrow.) again, everything sounded really good to my ear. i'm using a Motu Ultralite MkII which isn't the most high-end interface but it has a decent reputation for audio quality--i know that i've been pretty impressed. try isolating the mics and, if that doesn't appear to be the source, you could try using the built-in audio output just for comparison and, as i said, printing a cd to test on another system.
fester2k & pbear,
Thank you for replying! With this Superior Drummer 2.0, I think you usually use several virtual microphones. I have never used more than 1 mic when recording a real drum set, but I have heard that there are often phasing issues when using multiple mics with a real drum set. Not sure if a person can get the same problem when you use the virtual mic bleed with S2.0. Maybe the cymbal samples have a natural reverberation (not reverb) that oscillate somewhat that are giving me the false impression that there is slight phasing happening. I have heard real cymbals where the sound oscillates a bit. I have yet to find any effects like delay or reverb on Cubase LE4. I can't live without those effects. Not sure if there are any decent compressors on my Cubase. I also don't like having to use a mouse to click on virtual buttons, sliders, and knobs (I already knew this years ago). I much prefer clicking on real buttons & twisting real knobs. I know it's easy to spend several hundred on a control surface like a mixer that goes with the computer. So, it will be interesting to see if & when I go away from hard disc recorders. I learned recently you edit the drum patterns through Cubase, but I need to study the manual more.
you could definately have the same multi-source phasing issues when you use virtual mic bleed--ultimately you are still playing back a wave file of the actual instrument. I guess i just trust that Neil Dorffman and Pat Thrall are better at setting all of this up than i would be.
Cubase should have a decent collection of effects and instruments ready to use. again, i don't speak current Cubase but i know that each channel/track used to have it's own channel strip--standard stuff; gate, comp, eq,--ready to go, plus you could add vst Inserts per channel as well as sends to an Aux rack for common reverb & delay effects. pretty much anything you can think of is available--it's just a matter of getting to know the system.
i hear you on the hardware vs software knobs and faders. I have tried out a Behringer control surface and i just didn't end up using it--a DAW has soo many things to control that you'll never get access to everything so, for me, it ended up being easier to mouse it. for me the automation features in Tracktion (or any DAW) are much more effective than doing a one-shot mixdown--so many things to control and most of them can be automated. you might look into using your recorder as a midi control surface--i believe that it sends mixer control via midi--i don't know if it also sends track arm, knob settings etc. over midi or not. it would be sweet if it used Mackie HUI but most DAWs allow for Learning of MIDI control messages--assigning them to control any parameter you like.
pbear,
I have yet to get into Cubase effects, but I did see a stereo delay in there somewhere, but I have yet to see any reverbs. Right now I'm trying to get my Korg D3200 hard disc recorder to MIDI sync to the Cubase. I am getting MIDI to flow in & out of Cubase to my external gear/keyboard stuff. The Cubase sequencer can trigger my external keyboard. My D3200 will sync to my old Alesis MMT-8 sequencer. My D3200 indicates that it's receiving some sort of MIDI data from Cubase, but won't sync to it. I barely learned how to edit S2.0 drum patterns through Cubase, but I had to do it mouse clicking on a virtual keyboard or drawing in a note on a sequencer piano roll thing. You'd think I could add MIDI notes with my old Korg DS-8 keyboard MIDI signal: it can play S2.0 notes, but the Cubase sequencer doesn't seem to want to record those new notes into the drum pattern I copied & pasted from S2.0 into Cubase. Could be a MIDI routing issue that I haven't solved yet. Maybe I didn't put the Cubase sequencer in the record mode because I feared I would overwrite the S2.0 drum pattern. I forget now. I am slowly learning.
in my experience external midi sync is a challenge to set up--Tracktion's implimentation of it ended up being very spotty so i ended up bagging it. i'm sure that Cubase has a better handle on it because of it's history as a midi sequencer. it's going to be a matter of working with both your Korg and settings in Cubase to get everything to sync up. i would have to refer you to the Cubase community for help on the specifics.
i'm not sure if there is a better way (or more hands-on way) to edit drums in Cubase. you might look into Step Sequencing or Step Programming which might allow you to place notes at specific points on the timeline/piano-roll. Cubase does have a Drum Map feature which is nice if you get it set up to coincide with S2.0 notes--it's just a simpler piano-roll which allows you to label the notes for each instrument--this can be customized to be as spare or complete as you like. if you are planning to do a lot of drum programming, that's where i would look. of course you should have the ability to build patterns live using a loop record method with your keyboard--one pass for kicks, then snare then hats etc--quantize it to tidy things up (if you like that) you just have to set up the record mode to something like Layer instead of Replace (not the correct Cubase terms of course.) personally, i don't have a problem with mouse-editing a drum pattern--i find that you end up wanting to nudge things, adjust velocities and try different things. one feature that i really like about Cubase was the ability to either Clone or Copy clips. if you Clone a clip any edits to the original would be reflected in all of the clones. alternatively a Copy of a clip would stand alone so you could Clone bars 2 & 3 and Copy bar 4 to edit in a fill.
Each version of Cubase probably has it's own collection of effects--look for a reverb called RoomWorks. when i was using a pc i liked a lot of these free plugins: http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-series.php KVR is another good source for free, demo and shareware: http://www.kvraudio.com/ .
pbear,
Thanks for responding again! I have wondered about free plug-ins the last few days, but I don't have a clue yet how to use them. I will eventually delve into it. I have also thought about the Cubase forums lately, but I had not tried them lately, but I will. Just last night I was toying around with the drum map thing in Cubase. You can do a lot of tricky stuff with Cubase, but I wish it wasn't so complex. I spend a lot of time readjusting computer windows/views & I now have a 24" diagonal screen! There's something to be said for the simplicity of my 18 year old Alesis MMT-8 sequencer. It doesn't take a phD to operate it. My Sequential Circuits Pro One synth (circa 1981 & stopped working long ago) has a step sequencer. A major pain to program that; I hope the Cubase step sequencer is better. I just prefer to play it on keyboards & clean up the timing later on; which I hope to do eventually. I skimmed over copy & cloning very fast, so that's one more thing I need to learn. Glad you told me how cloning is different. OK, I just found I can record MIDI notes from my keyboard to Cubase sequencer & not wipe out the existing S2.0 drum pattern, so that's good news!
I haven't learned how to sync my Korg D3200 to Cubase perfectly yet, but I did this last night: I recorded a Tempo Track Map for my D3200 from the Cubase (after setting both the D3200 & Cubase at 140 Beats Per Minute). Then I started recording audio with the D3200 & then a second later I started playing Cubase/S2.0 drum track audio. After I recorded that on the D3200, I deleted the 1.3746 (or whatever it really was) seconds of blank audio. So now the recording plays the recorded drum track right away. This drum track audio stays in sync within a few milliseconds of the Tempo map even 2 minutes into the song. Kind of Mickey Mouse, but will have to do until I learn something better. Not sure if it would work as well without the Tempo Track, and just depend on the D3200 & Cubase having very accurate internal time clocks (both playing extremely close to 140.0000000 BPM).
i suppose you could also just render audio tracks and import the wave files directly into your 3200. i'm not sure how Cubase handles multi-output plugins, but it's probably possible to render the S2.0 output to multiple tracks giving you more flexibility in mixing within the 3200.
pbear,
I think I understand you, but not sure. Is that a "copy to clipboard" thing? On a somewhat related topic, recently I tweaked the S2.0 drums, adding effects & volume levels in the mixer while working in (toontrack) Solo. Once I dragged & dropped the MIDI files into Cubase, altering the S2.0 mixer didn't change my sound during Cubase playback. I was disappointed by that, unless, hopefully I'm doing something wrong.
I don't know Macs or Superior - so I can't help - but
there's a free drum vst called Mdrummer but I don't know if it works on a Mac - but the page I'm going to post has a ton of video tutorials of how it works in Cubase as far as editing goes.
It shows how you edit the midi track - then it show a "better" way that you can do it in Mdrummer.
It should give you something to go on.
bumpy,
I watched the Cubase video & learned some things. Thank you!!
Here's another resource site with tutorials and videos for everything Cubase. Not everything will apply to LE though.
In the tutorials there is one for -
"Transferring sample-accurate audio from ADAT into Cubase/Nuendo" which may apply to what you're trying to do.
http://www.steinbergusers.com/cubase/cubase_btm.php
If Superior has draggable midi loops you can drag one to a midi track (Cubase should make one when you drag) and it will only be about 1 bar - so you right-click (or option-click on a Mac?) and "duplicate" for as many bars as you need.
Then other loops on other tracks for fills etc.
That's all I know - I don't use those drum programs.
EDIT - it's right-click - edit - repeat - then select the number of repeats.
Message was edited by: bumpyroad
bumpy,
I think the ADAT uses a different type of sync system. But, it looks like there are some useful pdf's there. Thank you!!!
bumpy, pbear, & others,
There is a song I am working on. I dragged & dropped some factory S2.0 MIDI drum patterns into my Cubase LE4 song. Then I wanted to add some more MIDI notes. Perhaps I should have added a second MIDI track. Can S2.0 operate off of 2 separate Cubase MIDI tracks at once? I ended up adding MIDI notes with my Korg external hardware keyboard to the original S2.0 MIDI track. It did not overwrite the original MIDI data, but it is very difficult or impossible to view: both the original and new MIDI notes all at once. Anybody know how to easily view older & newer MIDI notes all at once? When I try to copy & paste the modified drum pattern, it only copies the original S2.0 MIDI notes. Can't I copy & paste the new & older MIDI notes at the same time?
i don't know if Cubase allows this but, in Tracktion, you can set the output of any track (midi or audio) to the input of any other track. this way you could have any number of MIDI tracks feeding a single track with the S2.0 plugin. i have actually never tried this with midi.
what i would normally do is either manually edit the existing midi clip or set the record mode to allow new recorded notes to appear in the same clip. it sounds like you have cubase set up to create a new clip each time you record--it's been awhile since i've used cubase but i believe that you should be able to change that recording behavior.
I don't use or know about 70% of what Cubase can do and I've been using it for almost 5 years.
I use it almost like a tape deck.
I'll post a couple of pictures to help you find things.
The first is to press the F11 key to bring up the vsti slots which you already have open for Superior. But you can also load the LM7 drum sampler that comes with Cubase. You can mouse the pads or play keys with a midi controller - or use it to play back a midi track. It has 3 drum kits. I don't use it. But it gives you a free option in case you want it.
Also #3 shows the options for overwriting or merging your midi notes as you play.
The idea is to loop a section - play something simple - like just a kick drum - then when it loops - add just a snare while you hear the kick you just recorded - then something else until you get what you want.
Or you can keep overwriting when it loops until you get it right.
The next picture shows how to select a region and make it loop.
Use the region tool on the right to select what you want to loop. Press the "p" on the keyboard to set the left and right locators.
Press the loop button on the left - then it will loop continuously until you press the spacebar to stop recording.
bumpy,
Thank you!
Mdrummer looks awsome! unfortunately it doesn't look like they have Mac versions
! they should integrate this into RiffWorks.
pbear,
somehow I found a path to the N.Y. Avatar drum patterns & now I have lots patterns to play! Things are working much better! I will later try to figure how to drag & drop these drum patterns into a Cubase LE4 song.
Stay in the mix and in the know.
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