Skip navigation
2998 Views 13 Replies Latest reply: Sep 9, 2012 1:06 PM by poynt99 RSS
bluebluetones Just Startin' 226 posts since
Sep 12, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Jan 1, 2010 12:33 PM

Strange tones on Spider IV

Hi all,

 

Would first like to say a big thank you to Line 6 for what I feel is the best Spider amp they have produced so far.  I have had the Spider IV 150 (2 x 12) for about a week now, and am having a lot of fun with it!  I think the IV models are the most "bouncy" and musical amplifiers they have released thus far.  The mere fact they have given me control over the reverb and tremelo makes all the difference compared to the Spider III.

 

I have previously owned an AX212, Flextone II Duo (2x10), Flextone II 2x12, Spider II HD150, Flextone III 2x12, and a spidervalve HD100.

 

The reason I am writing is because of the unusual modelling timbres, or tones, I am encountering with the Spider IV on the two "Class A" presets (both green and red).  There are additional tones (or harmonics) present when playing on guitar's G string from approx. the 5th fret up to approx. the 12th fret.  It is apparent when there is gain added and it sounds like an alternative singing tone or pitch that is not very musical to the actual pitch being fretted by the guitarist.

 

This is the second time I have noted this in my history of owning Line 6 amps, it was also apparent when I owned the Spider II HD, the Flextone III and the spidervalve head.  This obviously points out that Line 6 is using similar modelling tones or techniques between different series of amplifiers.  If my memory is right, these additional stray harmonics or tones were present on the Marshall presets on the Spidervalve ("Crunch") and on the Flextone III presets called either A-30 (or Plexi 45?)  Well, one play around the 5th to 12th fret with some gain and you will know.

 

I have tried these presets on new amplifiers in a store as well as on a Duoverb (yum! why was that amp discontinued!?) and found the stray tones too, so I know it is not my guitar or any coincidence.

 

Is this an accurate portrayal of an actual AC-30 or a Divided by 13 9/15 amplifier? (or in the case of the Flex III, a Plexi 45?)  I have never owned or heard these original amplifiers in person, but it is an unusual sound and not very good when playing lead work. With chords it is not apparent (more than one notes played).

 

I believe I have been clear in my description, if any players have more questions I would be happy to answer them.  I am still very happy with the amp, but would like to be able to use each preset fully and without hesitiation.

  • Nick_Mattocks Best of the Best 9,065 posts since
    Mar 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 2, 2010 3:56 AM (in response to bluebluetones)
    Re: Strange tones on Spider IV

    Hi

     

    Whether the amp models you hear in Line 6 gear are accurate or not is a very subjective thing

     

    It's almost certain that many of the original supposedly identical amps sounded different to each other in minor ways anyway - a bit like when someone claims to sell an accurate modern day replica of a Fender Strat 1959 bridge pickup as in those days pickup bobbins were wound until the bobbin was full with wire - neither the wire gauge nor the number of turns could be guaranteed to be exactly the same every time, so whilst a pickup may well be accurate when compared to the unique original sample pickup used to copy from it will probably sound a bit different to other original Strat pickups produced in 1959.  I don't know exactly how Line 6 achieve their amp models, but I believe they do have a number of original amps which are analysed electronically, digitally and by simply listening to them side by side with the modelled variants.  I think also that amp model settings will be agreed on somewhat by a committee of people who work for Line 6, freelance players and technicians.  On that basis, what you are going to get with any Line 6 modelling amp is a pretty darned close representation of the original amp(s) used to create the models you hear.

     

    Mostly, I think the Line 6 models we get are as accurate as they can ever hope to be, but I don't actually think it's possible to be 100% acccurate as there is no such thing as a standard identically performing amp in the first place due to component tolerances and wear on them.  At the end of the day, the models offered to us are only ever going to be someone else's opinion of what sounds right.  But that said, the models presented are certainly going to be in the right ball-park, so I would expect that what you can hear is going to be at least a 98% accurate representation of what the original modelled amp would also sound like.  Of course to be 100% sure, you would need to find an example of the original amp, set it up in terms of drive and tone the same way as the modelled version and play your guitar through it to compare.  If you're hearing the same kind of overtones in more than just the Spider IV, the chances are that what you are hearing is pretty accurate for the amp that Line 6 actually used when creating the model.

     

    I don't know what guitar you are using, but you've probably heard of so-called 'wolf' tones which are odd harmonics caused by having the pickup pole pieces set too close to the strings.  It may be that you need to adjust the pickup on your guitar so that the pole piece associated with the G string is moved further away.   Some amps enhance certain frequencies more than others - and some famous players have used original AC30 amps for this very reason - notably players like Brian May and Rory Gallagher and others have favoured Marshall for the same reason but different results.

     

    I believe you have used your own guitar with all the tests you tried out in store on the SV etc...?  Can you try a different guitar other than yours with the amp models that are displaying these characteristics you're hearing?  I'm just thinking that it might be something related to your particular guitar such as pickup position, type or string type.  It may even be something to do with the bridge saddle on your specific guitar like a bit of a wire edge or burr.  Obviously you know your own guitar and it probably doesn't display any of the problems you're hearing on any normal amp, but trying another guitar would rule out the problem from being anything to do with your guitar - only a suggestion.

     

    I don't have experience with the original Marshall Plexi amps either, but I have used two or three AC-30's in my time, and you should be aware that not all AC-30's were based on the same design, so I'm not sure which AC-30 model type Line 6 have based their AC-30 model on - I think it might be documented somewhere.

     

    Nick

      • Nick_Mattocks Best of the Best 9,065 posts since
        Mar 26, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jan 2, 2010 9:18 AM (in response to bluebluetones)
        Re: Strange tones on Spider IV

        No problem.  Just thought it worth mentioning the wolf tone phenomena - not everyone would necessarily know about that Obviously you do.

         

        It sounds as if you have given it some pretty thorough testing on several amps using several guitars.  Not much more you can do really.  

         

        I've been a bit busy this afternoon building a little swich box for something else and hadn't tried my own Spider IV until just now when I've done a very quick test.  I can hear heavy harmonic overtones on the Class A amp settings.  I tried two guitars - USA standard Strat (single coil) and Ibanez RG 1570 (humbucker).  It was in evidence there too.  However I have to say it was what I would have expected from a Vox AC 30

         

        In the meantime

         

        Happy New Year and I hope you get some other answers

         

        Nick

      • abltsarr Just Startin' 16 posts since
        Mar 10, 2010
        Currently Being Moderated
        Apr 7, 2010 5:22 AM (in response to bluebluetones)
        Re: Strange tones on Spider IV

        I have the same problem...

         

        http://line6.com/community/message/134303#134303

         

        It seems like a number of amp models have this issue. I don't know if it is intentionally modeled or not... but I agree the sound's not cool.

  • Line6Andy Line 6 4,345 posts since
    Jun 5, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 5, 2010 5:02 PM (in response to bluebluetones)
    RE: Strange tones on Spider IV

    Hello,

        Yes, the amp modeling and the perception of the tone is a very subjective topic (as Nick has already pointed out).  Amp modeling may reveal "weaknesses" in the original amps, and even the same brand/model can sound radically different between individual units.  YOu may want to try the original versions of a couple of the amp models you are calling out to see if you notice the same behavior.

  • cgtrman Just Startin' 108 posts since
    Apr 11, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 6, 2010 2:05 PM (in response to bluebluetones)
    Re: Strange tones on Spider IV

    I posted the same question about the Class A Red model on the Spider IV 75 three months ago:

     

    http://line6.com/community/thread/19556

     

    Do a search for ghost notes on Vox AC 30s, it's a characteristic that has been accurately modelled by Line 6 in their amp models.

     

    Since I also own the new Spider Valve MKII I can tell you it is that way on that amp too. I really like the new Class A models!

  • micas1 Just Startin' 5 posts since
    Oct 1, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 25, 2010 4:18 PM (in response to bluebluetones)
    Re: Strange tones on Spider IV

    Hi! I own a flextone III plus and i have the same problem. I' m portuguese, so sorry for any mistake in the spelling! Anyway, when I bought the amp, I was very pleased with the variety of tones I could get, and ALL models were working perfectly. I repeat, ALL of them! I used to practice at home using the "Class A-30" at clean settings ( I play Jazz/fusion guitar, mostly with clean/crunch sounds). So, as I said, this model didn' t had any problem, but one day, about 2/3 months after I owned it, It started to produce these ghost notes when I played some notes. That' s very strange, it produce these detuned harmonics (that' s what it is to me!) only on a few notes. I sent the amp back to be repaired. The technicians never heard of this problem in Portugal and, after 3 weeks or so, they sent me the amp back. Surprise, the problem disapeared, at least apparently,but after a few weeks, it started to do it again. I sent the amp back one more time a month ago, but now they told me they can' t hear anything!

    I´ve read the questions and answers about this problem, but I can tell you one thing: it is NOT intentional and it is NOT a characteristic of the original amp, at least with this intensity, and like you said, the same problem occurs on the plexi 45 simulation, I think. I wish it was a purposed reproduction of the original amps features, but I' m afraid it' s a factory problem. Of course, we have 32 amps on the flextone, so if 2 of them doesn' t work, we still have 30, but we paid to use all 32. If the problem doesn' t have a solution, I consider returning the amp back to the store and get another one, but one any tech could repair ( it' s not easy to find people who are able to repair modelling amps, as it' s more about computers than classic amplification), but I think I will not buy Line 6 products again, because the amps become discontinued in a short period of time, and like I said, they are tricky to repair, at least here in Portugal.

    I hope all people having this problem ( and others) should find a solution. It' s sad, because I really like their products, but they seem to have a lot of technical problems as the technology involved grows (I had a flextone 1 a few years ago and it worked perfectly). I don´t know if you have your problem solved, but I would like to know...

    Cheers

     

                                                                          Michael Maia

      • micas1 Just Startin' 5 posts since
        Oct 1, 2009
        Currently Being Moderated
        May 27, 2010 6:44 AM (in response to bluebluetones)
        Re: Strange tones on Spider IV

        Hello

         

        Well, thanks for answering so fast! I have done some research about ghost tones and read what other users think, and I guess this is a normal problem, since nobody seems to find another explanation ( I just hope this is not Line 6 trying to convince us this is a normal feature).

         

        So, the only solution for me is using the Jazz Clean amp, as it´s a solid-state amp, no valve failures, Right?

         

        Best regards,

         

         

                                                                  Michael Maia

        • poynt99 Just Startin' 32 posts since
          Jul 24, 2011
          Currently Being Moderated
          Sep 9, 2012 1:06 PM (in response to micas1)
          Re: Strange tones on Spider IV

          Further research into the so-called "ghost-note" issue has revealed that it is extrememly unlikely that these discordant notes are ghost notes modeled from the amplifiers.

           

          There are at least a dozen amplifier models in the POD X3 and Spider IV amplifier (and probably many more products) exhibiting this problem, and the suspicious fact that makes it difficult to believe these are modeled after the amplifier itself, is that every one of these models exhibits the exact same discordant note. One would expect each amplifier that was being modeled would exhibit its own unique-sounding artifact, yet this is NOT the case with these modeled amplifiers.

           

          Have a listen for yourself and come to the only logical conclusion available.

           

          PS. I have not yet listened to the POD HD, but I will report back what I find in this regard.

More Like This

  • Retrieving data ...

Bookmarked By (0)

Legend

  • Correct Answers - 5 points
  • Helpful Answers - 3 points