Jul 17, 2010 8:11 AM
M13 designers - What's next?
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M13/Line 6 insiders... are there any tasty hints about upcoming updates or product enhancements on the horizon that you can share with us? PA-leeeeze?? ![]()
Zzzzzzzzz.... summer can be so slooooow.
In the meantime M13 wish list:
1. Up to standard MIDI implementation
2. Scene/preset import/export options (related to #1)
3. Mini-scene option
4. I really like the FX Off Setting for the FX Loop feature (see below). I would LOVE to see the FX loop be assignable to an actual Preset slot to be able to move around within a Scene. Ideally it would be cool to have more than one effects loop for individually adding other favorite pedals to the M13 (basically acting as a simplified Bradshaw). Imagine interchanging/programming presets within scenes comprised of internal L6 presets AND multiple outside pedals!
FX Off Setting For FX Loop
We added an FX OFF setting to the FX Loop parameters in Setup Mode. Now you can set
up a Scene with your FX Loop bypassed, so you can essentially kick in your external FX by
simply switching Scenes. This feature is available on a Scene by Scene basis.
excellent and useful feature concepts! the miniscene will be very useful for some songs - it can be one of the modes available so you have scene mode, latch mode and mini scene mode!
One other thing is a blank pedal or a spacer - i remember this one from some old thread for easy layouts... it can even double as a bypass-all switch when used in scene mode so its useful for non-latch users.
Bump
OK, summer's over! bump.
Zzzzzzzz. Bumpity bump...
Yes, very curious indeed....and I'm a bit surprised how quiet L6 has been with any update news. I hope the device isn't forgetten in the blitz of the HD series.
I have an M13, and my biggest gripes about it (besides the ridiculous power supply) are some of the weaker ODs, and the fact that the signal is only instrument level. My RM100 runs only at line level (a gripe I have with Mr. Egnater) and it would be cool if a future update by L6 could allow the signal to be switched to either line or instrument. Any L6 engineers out there to comment?
MOAR BUMPS
RICH RENKEN.....GIVE US ANSWERS........BRAINS........![]()
Bumpity bump. Started my own thread on one of these issues, but I'm throwing down with this one - good ideas here.
swickpro wrote:
M13/Line 6 insiders... are there any tasty hints about upcoming updates or product enhancements on the horizon that you can share with us? PA-leeeeze??
I am no insider, but... based on my experience with Line 6 products in the past and Line 6's current competing product offerings I would bet M13 will not be improved in the future, more likely they will have a new product that does more for half the price.
Currently it looks like the HD500 has all of the effects from the M13 and does tons of other cool tricks the M13 cannot, yet the HD500 is selling for the same price as the M13. This makes the M13 a likely candidate for retirement in my estimation.
If sales of the M13 make it profitable to keep around of course Line 6 will probably keep turning them out, but with the HD500 on the market I would expect M13 sales to fall drastically.
I think the M13 is wholly unique and continues to stand strong on it's own for the very reason that it's NOT a POD. The M13 is basically a no-bones collection of great stomp box effects with none of the other complications and cab modeling goo. I've owned 3 POD versions in the past, but none were as laid out as simply or as flexible to use as the M13-not to mention the over-processed, mushy POD sound. I've already got the greatest pedals and the best amp (my opinion). I'm not going to buy yet another one just because it's got the now, ever-popular "HD" printed on it, thanks. Now, those HD sunglasses I've been seeing on late night TV--those I've gotta have!
It would be a shame for Line 6 to discontinue the only "purist" multi-effect product they have that supports guitarists who don't prefer to have everything modeled for them.
Here, here!
I turned to line6 for the m13 alone - I've never liked the pods no matter how popular they might be. However johnnyayyy has a point however bleek it might be(thanks debbie downer). Its just a fact of software/hardware development.
ruzz311 wrote: johnnyayyy has a point however bleek it might be(thanks debbie downer).
You're welcome, anytime!
swickpro wrote:
I think the M13 is wholly unique and continues to stand strong on it's own for the very reason that it's NOT a POD. The M13 is basically a no-bones collection of great stomp box effects with none of the other complications and cab modeling goo. I've owned 3 POD versions in the past, but none were as laid out as simply or as flexible to use as the M13-not to mention the over-processed, mushy POD sound. I've already got the greatest pedals and the best amp (my opinion). I'm not going to buy yet another one just because it's got the now, ever-popular "HD" printed on it, thanks. Now, those HD sunglasses I've been seeing on late night TV--those I've gotta have!
It would be a shame for Line 6 to discontinue the only "purist" multi-effect product they have that supports guitarists who don't prefer to have everything modeled for them.
After sleeping on it I think there will still have to be a non-Pod Line 6 multi fx pedal option in the future - I was thinking it is very easy to set up all of your patches/scenes on the HD with no amp model/cab etc. to exactly equal the perfomance of the M13 (there will be no "over-processed" sound with the amps/cabs turned off and the effect will be exactly the same quality and function as M13) but I agree adjusting on the fly in a live situation will be much more difficult or at least more tedious and time consuming with the HD than it is on the M series.
I understand your preference of the simplicity of the M13, the thing that makes it hard to see many people still buying them is the price as compared to the HD.
If the price on the M13 were lowered a bit I could see it still being a viable product but for the most part anyone buying one now would seem to be paying the same price but getting waaaaayyyyy less for their money.
Like I said, I am not an insider and I am just making semi-educated guesses about the future based on what I have seen in the past with the other Line 6 products I have purchased (Vetta II, Pod I, Pod xt, Variax) - the products are usually around a couple of years with updates/improvements added then something much improved is introduced and the old product is no longer supported. That said he M13 could very well be the first exception for Line 6 and permanently remain their flagship fx only modeler, continuing to sell like hotcakes til the end of time for all any of us know.
M13 HAS been around for the usual amount of time Line 6 normally waits before they stop adding updates to a product and develop/introduce its replacement, so I would expect to see a successor in the next year or so.
Yeah, it may come down to just business numbers. Here's holding out hope however. Somewhere in the Line 6 camp is a team that broke out of the POD paradigm and created the M13. My Christmas wish is that they are still a team and still mulling on the M13, reading our comments here and seriously considering upgrading it, expanding it or even redesigning it. Surely they saw a market for it originally, even with all of the new POD stuff at the time. How it did against sales expectations is anyone's guess. Like the title of the post pleads, it sure would be great to get a word on this either way. Do we have something to look forward to or not?
swickpro wrote:Like the title of the post pleads, it sure would be great to get a word on this either way. Do we have something to look forward to or not?
I am pretty sure Line 6's policy is to not comment on future development... did they let everyone know beforehand when the last set of M13 upgrades was coming? I don't have an M13, the upgrades for the Line 6 products I have purchased have always been announced at the time they were made available as I recall.
You could try posting a question in the support area, they are much more likely to answer you there even if only to say "Line 6 does not comment on future product development, please submit your question in the form of a feature request" or something similar.
I've been a member over at cubase.net for years and one thing I really appreciate about the site is the Forum Moderators. It's also the reason the forums are so successful. I'm not interested in whining with others, I just want to be kept in some kind of news loop on the products I buy. Over there we are frequently kept up to speed (and pumped up) on future developments and product enhancements. In some cases we have dialoged with the developers/code writers directly. I don't think it's too much to ask to keep in touch with your user base. I just want to help contribute ideas (as a user) to make the product better.
All I'm saying is that it would be nice to get some basic acknowledgement like, "Thanks for your suggestions, our team is continuing to work on making the M13 all it can be and will be letting you know soon where we're headed. We appreciate your input as a Line 6 customer." OR how about: "We at Line 6 think you are a moron and you post ridiculous questions--ones that we can't and won't answer publicly. Melvin in the dark office in the basement released the latest update for the M13 6 months ago, what do you want from us?! Have you seen our latest HD Pod? Plus, you didn't post your questions/comments in the right area on our forum so we're going to pretend that we didn't see them anyway." I'd take either.
Therein lies the rub -
How to make something both super capable and remain "bonehead simple"?
I like the idea of having the out of the box capability bonehead simple, but give me a way to get under the hood.
The one key thing I want from the M13 is a computer interface where I can control or program the presets without squatting on the floor... and save my libraries...
rmesic wrote:
Therein lies the rub -
How to make something both super capable and remain "bonehead simple"?
I like the idea of having the out of the box capability bonehead simple, but give me a way to get under the hood.
The one key thing I want from the M13 is a computer interface where I can control or program the presets without squatting on the floor... and save my libraries...
This is so true. I mean, really, the one thing they should have put on this is a USB interface. It would have made life much easier.
I really hope they continue with the M13 board. Basically, as pointed out, its for those that have no need for the modelling amps. I run mine flawlessly with my Diezel Herbert and it even switches the channels. It eliminated a whole pile of cabling issues as well as having to run an extra switch to change the amps channels. It's an amazing device. I really haven't even tapped into some of the more interesting sounds on it but it is a keeper of a unit. I also like the ease as to which one can program it.
It would be great for them to pack a few more interesting ideas into it and give the consumer a few more years of product enjoyment instead of shelving support for it after a couple of years. A happy customer is one that does return.
For product enhancements I'd like to see some serious midi implementation. I am using an old digitech multieffects board with midi capabilities to fully control the looper and also handle expression pedal duties. It works but the caveat is that the switches are lousy and the expression pedal is flimsy. What I'd like to see is more midi explanation in the manual other than a simple appendix. For example:
Can you send a command to toggle the one expression pedal to have two roles? Say you want to do some volume swells, you use the expression pedal to increase your delay feedback and then toggle the expression same pedal to then control volume. That would be useful.
Can the midi expression pedal control volume? (Yes answering my own question - it can using the volume model in a scene.) It would be nice if it could be seperate so you don't use up an effect space though...
As a midi controller next I want to turn on whichever combination of 4 effects set as a scene. It'd be really sweet to just program one of the switches on the midi controller to switch the scene and turn on the desired effects within that scene.
Since I am probably the longest Line6 owner around here from the begining let me give some historical perspective on why we are were we are today.
Line6 is what it is today becasue of the internet. The very first amp release Axsys212 had patch sharing websites spring up. I had the first site. Soon they put up their own - and the pod took off. And then their website quickly became the polished site it is today. That same amp had midi and midi before most typical guitarists knew how to use midi. This resulted in their inside support staff fielding countless emails hand holding those of us that were completely lost. (I have printed emails from 1997 that are very long and well written explanations of midi from Line6) Then came the forums and discussion boards. What a great way to easily answer the same question more than once right? And on these forums you have these experts. Are they volunteers? Who knows but what I do know is savvy Line6 embraces BUZZ marketing.
Now back to the M13... If the internet didn't exist, if firmware updates were not possible then we'd still buy it off the shelf and use like it is short comings and all. I'm sure they tell themselves that every day within the walls of Line6. Especially when us users tick them off. "Those ungrateful firmware whiners!" At the same time they have to be grateful for all the beta testing we do and report back to them - ha ha.
Really, if Line6 provides an update it barely effects whether they will sell more M13's. It does effect that they will have to then spend money out of some budget to develop and then support any new firmware upgrade and its new features. So if the midi improves (which it should) that will come at a cost to Line6 in support. The Axsys212 had a cost involved for its one update. I hate to suggest this - but I would pay for an update. $20 max.
I hate to suggest this - but I would pay for an update.
As would I - and I wouldn't, at this time, put a dollar limit on it, just don't be rediculous....
Well shoot, it appears we get nothing M13 from the L6 Elves under the tree this year. Here's looking ahead to possible good things in '11. Peace everybody...
I'm just a little upset that the M9 gets "propriety enchancements" and the M13 doesn't.
The one key thing I want from the M13 is a computer interface where I can control or program the presets without squatting on the floor... and save my libraries...
I hate to suggest a workaround since I also want USB and/or computer interface but here is an alternative to squatting on the floor:
I wonder how long this topic will last till the next firmware. there was some discussion before of modeling additional pedals and selling them off ala apple's appstore...cheap and cherry picking enjoyment. Would you guys go for something like that? For 0.99 a pedal i would ![]()
Didn't take me long to figure this one out...think of it like the iPod. Pretty much there will be a 'latest and greatest' coming out every couple of years that is touted better than previous versions with nothing essentially but a new shell. iPod nanos, phones with new video, iPads and...Line 6. It's called cannibalization of your own market. From a consumer standpoint, it keeps things fresh. From a business standpoint, it allows new ideas and growth. From a fan's view of a certain item, I find it annoying but inderstand it. For me, I really dig an item and will continue to use it as it came out, and don't really fall for marketing. M13 is gonna be with me for a looooooong time...
any update on the new firmware released?
Ultron: I've installed the new firmware, I love having the multiple sets of scenes even though I haven't done much with them yet. Still need to play around with the new effects but I think they fixed the chorus and I like the one new delay I played with.
That, and now I have a MIDI to USB box so I can play with other computer driven stuff...
I figure that once something cooler and more powerful comes out one of us will start hacking into one of these to turn it into a controller board. If and when the sounds or sound quality becomes obsolete or if the circuit board winds up letting the magic smoke out, the buttons and LED's will continue to be useful... I can't tell you how many times the laptop bag held its value longer than the laptop...
Who knows - maybe it will wind up being the home to a cluster of BYOC pedals and boards harvested from old MXR boxes... (that's Build Your Own Clone - google it if you need to...)
Something else to think about -- years ago I bought a long builders box - about 10". Drilled for a series of footswitches (technically too close together as I had to work not to hit two at once. The thing that controlled never really came into its own, so the box got repurposed as a 'step controller' for CV... One momentary switch at the end flip-flopped the ends of the circuit so at 50% it does nothing. Each of the does the electrical equivalent of bumping the CV pedal up another 15% or so. That one is gone now, but I'm toying with the idea of building another one... this time with some relays so that pushing one footswitch "takes over" kinda like the old AM radio buttons... you don't want to add resistance, you want to jump to a setting. If you have a "dead" M13 box someday, you could make one heck of a step control voltage board... maybe on three channels.
Developers please ignore the post above this one. That guys ready to make the M13 retro. ![]()
Heck, I'm still messing with the delays and have barely moved on to the Looper...this thing is awesome!!!!!!!
edit - looking over the advanced manual it appears this firmware increases the midi functionality. Or at least the manual revision does... Either way - thank you Line6!
Nowhere near ready to take it retro yet! Just saying... its a great format box and has value even without the 'insides'...
So - develop more stuff in that format!
rmesic wrote:
Ultron: I've installed the new firmware, I love having the multiple sets of scenes even though I haven't done much with them yet. Still need to play around with the new effects but I think they fixed the chorus and I like the one new delay I played with.
Link to new firmware update:
http://line6.com/community/thread/55622?tstart=0
Installation went without a hitch. Re-loaded all my scenes and I'm ready to roll. Still not sure what I updated exactly in terms of "enhancements", but I'm happy to have an ambiguous update nonetheless. Thanks L6! Still would like to know what was address in v2.04 and if anything big is on the boards for the future.
I was pleasantly surprised to discover this ginormous thread today in my looking for clues to a power issue I had recently with the M13. I've got to get out more...
http://line6.com/community/message/9574#9574
There's some very insightful comments by Rich at Line 6 throughout. Not just about the power thing, but some truly heartfelt passion for the M13 technology (see bold below). I'm a bit embarrassed that he has to be on the defensive so much here due to boneheaded comments, but I'm very encouraged by this. Good on you Rich!
_______________________________
Hey guys,
We released 2.04 update to the public today.
We released 2.02 a bit ago with a possible power problem fix and a fix to the feedback on the echo platter model. Somehow the echo platter fix didn't make it in and we recompiled it, which meant a couple more weeks of testing to be sure that it was ready to go.
So, go get 2.04.
The reason I say possible fix is that we are pretty sure that it will be a fix. When developing the POD HD500 we ran into a bug that alerted us to an issue and we fixed it and we think that may be related to this issue on M13. Well, we can't reproduce the power problem, as you guys know, on the M13. It seems to be random. So what I would LOVE is for you guys to update your units to 2.04 and use them. PLEASE report back here if you update and have this same problem. I emailed a couple guys 2.02 to try and it seems to work.
I am so so hoping that this is the fix. You guys letting me know what happens with yours will be my best gauge to knowing if this is going to work. Again, because the problem is so weird and random in the first place.
Thank you guys for your patience. I haven't forgotten about you at all. I am now a full time customer advocate for Line 6 and loving my job and it all started when I jumped into these M13 forums and started talking to you guys. So I will not forget about you. Believe me, I am pushing for all the things we have talked about in the past.
Peace,
Rich
It's been a year for me now as an M13 user. It's great to see the tech morphing in different directions (HD, M9, M5, etc.), but I'd still like to see some further development on the original M13 software/hardware. Mostly in the way of incorporating suggestions on the forums here. L6 has only scratched the surface with this box.
Agreed - and since its a lot like the effect version of a softsynth - there's almost no limit to what could be done...
I'd love to see some delayed effect capabilities - Imagine a distortion that instead of switching to fuzz in an instant, it has a parameter you can assign...
Step on this switch and gradually over the next 3 seconds the fuzz will morph from Fuzz Face to Colorsound...
I do something like that with the CV pedal for some effects, but it might be a nice effect.
I don't recall if I mentioned this earlier - but another LFO on cyclic effects is cool - I used to run a modulated chorus where the speed would slowly sweep from almost too slow to almost too fast and back. That was pretty useful.
Bump. Good expansion on the core technology, but would love to see something new in development for the M13 specifically.
Double Bump
I'd also like to know if Line6 intend to develope the M13 any further.
A Clean boost is on my wish list............
B - bring
U - up
M - my
P - post
Updates pleaseeeeeeeeeee...
All i want is an acoustic simulator....
What a waste that no one from Line6 bothers to join in this fruitfull conversation.....
line6 doesn't participate in user groups... only in support groups... and then only post marked as questions within those groups... so unless someone at line6 decides to randomly look for what users want updated... they will never read this... if anyones expectation was otherwise... the expectation is the real issue....
if you want to send line6 your ideas... submit them here...
http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/
they will bypass support and go directly to the development team.
Thanks. The original question was not a "support-specific" inquiry as much as an overall "hey,can you tell us what the future holds for this very cool product?". Today's leak by Apple about the upcomming iTV is a good example. Usually before a big product release there is some buzz, some anticipation and connection to rally the faithful.
I think the only documented "enhancement" since I purchased in July 2010 was the addition of a delay. Nothing else anywhere hints at further implementation of anything discussed by users. The M13 is quickly becomming an antiquated item. There have been many other Line 6 expansions on the core M13 technology, but no hints of any kind on the futherment of the M13 iteslf--hardware or otherwise. L6 knows exactly where users are at in terms of what they want in this box. We just need to know if there is an M13 future we can look forward to.
Reposting to Support.
Add indivdual Amp downloads, pick and choose what you like, "trick out " your M13. Put a small price on it for each one. We download them our M13's and we're "bad *** "all over again. Limit them to a few as to not take away from the other products but, to keep user's happy
with there purchase. That's just me, as for Line 6 not reading or coming in the user group......well that's just the right thing to say. Right? We are the USER'S not the lookers who saw the their product. They want to know how we really feel about their products
.......you remeber your parents saying how they trust you and as soon as you where gone they went throw your stuff! Why, because it was their house.....it's ok, I'm a parent now myself. Some body is peeking.![]()
Not sure I understand what you're typing here. I traded my M13 in on a pod HD400. I'm very satisfied. How long do you expect line 6 to update m13's software anyway? Over 100 effects aren't enough? Just saying.
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i hear your point... the M13 has a place...
but make no mistake... it may not be an AMP modeler... but it is modeling effects pedals.
i'm also 100% certain that line6 knows that the M users aren't particularly the same users that will buy HD's
they wouldn't be able to sell any M13's if they weren't because they are priced the same as the HD500's
The fact that the M13 models JUST effects is the unique thing about it. To me the fact that it nods slightly to the Bradshaw concept is the other. Just want to see it go further! Wondering what the sales figures look like between the two. If the M13 were doing as well as the HD stuff wouldn't we get a hint of some kind of further development in the works? Hence my original question.
they are always tight-lipped about whats on the burner....
but i do believe that the M series is going to be around for a while since they put the effects in the HD units...
makes sense that any development to come from there would spill back over to the M13...
you might poke around and see what they are doing with the HD's for a hint.... since i'm sure they won't address it directly.
I think that these modeling platforms will remain viable for quite a while as its just a software update to keep them current - I don't think there is a reason that the M13 couldn't become an amp modeler, either.
Looking at that new Digitech thing, it just eats an iPad and can control pretty much whatever you can do in software on that device. Would have been smarter if they just gave a cable to an iPad on a music stand...
So you gotta figure Line6 is at least as clever as those guys... Imagine an M14 (M13+ ?) with the switch banks and some onboard processing, but a USB hookup into an Android tablet or whatnot.
Imagine using your tablet as a KAOSS pad controling CV parameters.
Imagine an app dev kit for the M13 so us hacker types can write our own effect algorithms.
Further imagine an expansion to the effects loop already in the M13 where "old school" effects can be controlled / blended via computer control.
Lots of cool stuff on the horizon - in fact, I'm looking forward to checking out that new Bogner joint venture amp...
If it does evolve into an amp modeller, I would be really disappointed. The M13 is now clearly set apart from others in that it models ONLY pedals. My hope is that we see a truly "PRO" version of this one day that includes: 1 - USB added to be able to save/recall setups to a computer (that's not 1985 SysEx) and to be able to interface with the outside world. 2 - Heavier grade switches. 3 - Multiple internal/external routing/swtiching options to incorporate various amp set ups and combines Line 6 sounds with outboard gear/pedals like a Brashaw rig or Ground Control. 4 - Able to run more than four internal effects in a chain. 5 - Expandable FX libraries.
I can't expect L6 to do squat with this legacy M13. So why doesn't the user base to make their own firmware if they feel they want to tweak it. What is better is to find ways to "make" things or life hack things to do what you want. For example, has anyone used the TouchOSC for Android or ipad work with the M13?
Nice! They even use the M13 as an example here - http://line6.com/midimobilizer/mmii/midi_memo_app.html
2 years since the original post and only one, barely notable software update. Doesn't bode well. Line 6 has positioned the M13 like a piece of driftwood out to sea as they are noticably putting most of their resources into live sound these days. Hard to stay energized about a product line that is so obviously down on the priority list and still trying to float on 2008 buzz. For most of this year now I have moved back to actual pedals as I had the mysterious power spike once again and a couple of the cheapo switches are a bit clugy. Like many, I hope L6 will eventually get back to their glory-roots of developing defacto guitar effects. I'll be keeping an eye out for it as well as a much needed M14-PRO (?), but until then musical brothers, I bid you audiu...
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