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3883 Views 30 Replies Latest reply: Oct 7, 2011 1:43 PM by meambobbo RSS
sean106ESP Just Startin' 90 posts since
Aug 29, 2011
Currently Being Moderated

Sep 26, 2011 10:38 PM

Any advice for dialing out mud from 7 String guitars?

Hey all. I have my 7 string guitars tuned to ADGCFAD and find it tedious to dial out some of the mud and want a more focused rhythm sound from the low bar chords. Any EQ effect advice for dialing out that mud and a more focused heavy distortion? Thanks.

  • gregr Iknowathingortwo 639 posts since
    Oct 26, 2009

    Did you try the screamer?

  • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
    Dec 13, 2007

    It all depends on the amp model you are using.  In general, I like to use a Studio EQ with low freq set at 75 or 150 HZ and I'll cut them, and high freq set at 400 or 800 HZ and I'll boost them.  But for some amp models, too much highs can make the amp get a little crackly.  For those I'll use a parametric EQ with low Q and pretty high gain, and I'll set the frequency between 38 and 60%.  You gotta find the sweet spot.  Then adjust the "highs" parameter until you get a good balance of smooth distortion and crackle.

     

    No matter what you do you're virtually guaranteed to knock your amp EQ knobs a little off.  You may have to resort to using some EQ effects after your amp to compensate.

     

    For more detailed info, you could take a look at the guide I wrote.

      • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
        Dec 13, 2007

        I usually put one EQ effect or distortion effect (with drive turned all the way down) before the amp to change the way the amp distorts, then I use 2-4 EQ effects behind the amp.  I'll usually use one parametric EQ with a mid to low Q to boost a spot I feel is lacking but can't dial in with the amp's controls.  I find this is usually around frequency 25-35% to dial in the low warmth, 50-55% to dial in those djenty mids, or 70-80% to get the top of the mids or a little fizz.  I also find I can sometimes use a mid cut around 42% to get out the honky mids, which the mids amp knob often misses.

         

        Also, I will use a Studio EQ to trim the very high (8000 HZ) and low (75 or 150 HZ) ends (although sometimes I have to boost the high end).

         

        I might use some more parametric EQ's if I have effect block space.  I'll set these with Q to 80-100% and find places I want to cut, usually in the 80-100% frequencies, to dial down some of the fizzy spots that sound too noisy.  If I'm using one of the cab/mic combinations that has too much bass or boominess (XXL 4x12 especially), I'll set one to 13% frequency and cut hard.

         

        Check out some of the settings on my tone demo, particularly the Dream Theater, Meshuggah, and Periphery ones.

          • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
            Dec 13, 2007

            The early Korn tones fall into the WTF file.  A lot of people trash them, and I myself can't say I'm a huge fan in general.  But I would say they actually fit well into the music, and I do enjoy Korn.

             

            I've read a number of different things.  The amps were Marshall, Triple Recto's, or H&K (heard both Attax and Tri-axis).  I used to have a H&K Attax 1x12 combo amp.  It actually does have that kind of distortion - a bit more like fuzz than a crisp traditional rock tone.

             

            You basically want to do the opposite of what I usually do, which is brighten the tone using an EQ or overdrive pedal then get your distortion from the amp's pre-amp or power amp.  So I would use a fuzz pedal and turn up its drive quite a bit - use it as your main distortion phase.  keep the amp relatively clean, or let it break up just a bit, just to make the fuzz tone a bit "dirtier".  If you're going to use amp distortion, I'd recommend using the JCM-800 rather than the Recto, and I'd put a parametric EQ in front of it with a strong boost at 50% Q on some frequency between 5-30%.  You need a real dark tone to get the distortion to break-up in that really dirty, fuzzy way.

             

            A lot of the brightness they get, like the high part on the intro to Blind, seems to come from a chorus or some kind of modulation effect.  That's not my forte, but it does sound like whatever it is cranked up high and set in front the distortion.

             

            Also note their tone isn't that distorted.  You don't want it mushy, you want it more like a crunch.

             

            If the fuzz distortion makes the tone too loose, you might be able to get the fuzz tone first with a distortion effect, then run an EQ to brighten the tone a little, then run it into the amp with a mild amount of distortion.  This would be an attempt to get the amp distortion to compress and tighten up the low end coming from the fuzz tone, without doing much else to alter the distortion tone.

             

            As far as the amp's EQ knobs or post-amp EQ effects go, it seems pretty neutral.  Just make sure the mids are the emphasis, not the lows, and certainly not the highs.

             

            I'm gonna go give it a shot.  I'll let you know if I succeed.

              • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
                Dec 13, 2007

                Ok, check my tone demo page again. I added a Korn patch - it's the last one.  It's in the zip file as well.

                 

                I went back and listened a little more, and the tone wasn't as muddy as I initially thought.  I started off trying to use the fuzz distortion effects, and they were all too flubby/muddy to get the right tone.

                 

                I ended up using a blend of the Marshall JCM-800's pre and power amp distortions.  I put two parametric EQ's in front the amp boosting mids.  This gets the distortion sounding real dirty, but not too loose or muddy.  I'm not 100% satisfied with the sound, but I feel like it's close enough.  Maybe you could play around with it and get it closer.  The pre-distortion mid-boosts make the post-distortion tone kind of nasty with honking mids, so I turn them down after the amp.  I also try to dial in the basic EQ sound by boosting in the presence range.  Since you're getting power amp distortion, the amp's EQ controls don't really have much effect on the EQ.

                 

                I used the Greenbacks 4x12 with the 87 Condensor mic.  This cab tends to be very mid-heavy.  So if you change it to "no cab", you may need to dial in more mids.  I'd start by removing the two parametric EQ's that cut mids after the amp, or maybe turn them from cuts to boosts.

                 

                I'm also now realizing Korn's actual tone seems to have a touch of reverb on it.  You might want to take off the noise suppressor or Studio EQ and replace it with some verb.

                 

                BTW, I noticed in that first clip you posted, it sounds more like Korn's full mix tone - you get that nasty clicky/buzzy high-end distortion.  That shouldn't actually be in the guitar - Korn gets that sound from the bass guitar.  It's a combination of fret buzz and distortion.

                 

                Hope this helps.

                  • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
                    Dec 13, 2007

                    i was playing around with the patch this morning and I found it a little muddy myself.  I was using the intro to Blind as a reference - Faget is better because you have a more traditional riff with palm muting.

                     

                    Try turning off the first parametric EQ with frequency at 58%, and turn down the "lows" parameter on the second one.  Then turn down the "master volume" on the amp, and then turn up the "drive" knob until you get the right amount of distortion.  If it's still muddy, keep lowering the "lows".

                     

                    EMG's are notoriously "thin".  They have very little frequency response in the low-mids.  So if you're getting the right sound with them but not the other pickups, I would say your best bet is to reduce that spot before your distortion (parametric EQ with frequency between 20-35%).  I would not consider the lack of low mids on the EMG's a good thing.  It helps dial in a metal sound, but it limits you out the gate.  It's better to have those frequencies to start, then cut them when you don't want them rather than never have them at all.  If you try to boost frequencies that aren't there, you'll just get a noisy tone.

                     

                    I'm using a 6 string Yamaha Pacifica with 7 string strings on it and a Seymour Duncan AHB-1 bridge pickup in the bridge position.  This pickup is probably pretty bright - I'm guessing a little brighter than yours.  But it has good low mids response.  I don't find I have to cut them to get a smooth distortion.

                     

                    Try doing this.  Set up a patch with absolutely NOTHING on it, or turn off EVERYTHING, amp included, and set up your looper in "Post" position.  You should be hearing your raw signal from the pickups.  Use the guitar with EMG's, and record something simple, like a low E power chord, then a palm mute using the looper.  Switch to your other guitar.  Now compare the raw tone between that guitar and the recorded tone in the looper.  Try to EQ the tone so that it sounds relatively the same.  Apply that EQ to the patch - it should give you the same distortion now.

                      • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
                        Dec 13, 2007

                        hang in there, man.  the secret is EQ'ing.  The Mark V uses pre-gain EQ'ing to adjust your distortion tone.  Try setting its bass knob all the way up, and mid, treble, and presence knobs all the way down.  I bet your tone gets muddy.  The 5 band graphic EQ is what EQ's your post distortion tone - turning up the bass there won't make your tone muddy, just bass heavy.  There's a quick primer on pre-gain vs. post-gain EQ'ing.  This will work the same way on the Pod HD, only you don't get the simple bass, mid, treble, presence knobs.  But on the other hand, the Pod has a bunch of different amp models, so you can get a much wider variety of tones.

                         

                        Just learn how to use the parametric EQ effect on the Pod HD.  It gives you the most control.  Forget about the others for now.

                         

                        "lows" is a shelf EQ.  It boosts or cuts all frequencies above below I think 240 HZ.  Boosting it will make your tone sound like this (in the following diagram the amplitude or volume is on the y axis and frequency is on the x axis):

                         

                         

                        ___

                           \__________

                         

                        Cutting would look like:

                         

                            __________

                        ___/

                         

                        50% is neutral.  100% is max boost.  0% is max cut.

                         

                        "highs" works the same way but its cutoff frequency is at 1.5 kHZ (1500 HZ).  Boosting:

                         

                                  ____

                        _________/

                         

                        cutting:

                        _________

                                 \____

                         

                        So you consider "lows" the same as your bass knob and "highs" the same as your treble and presence knobs, more or less.

                         

                        The frequency, Q, and gain controls all work together as a peak/valley EQ.  Frequency defines the location on the frequency spectrum where the apex of the cut/boost will occur.  Q defines how narrow or wide the boost/cut is.  Gain defines whether you are cutting or boosting and how strong you are doing so.

                         

                        So turning up the gain with frequency at 50% would look like this:

                              _

                        _____/ \______

                         

                        Moving frequency up to 70% would look like this:

                                 _

                        ________/ \___

                         

                        Turning down the Q would look like this:

                               _____

                        ______/     \_

                         

                        Turning up the Q:

                         

                        _________/\___

                         

                         

                         

                        Just play with it until you can really hear how these controls shape the tone.  When you change settings, try to toggle the effect off, play a little and turn it back on.  When you change settings you might be subconsciously thinking it's doing something else because of the comparable tone at the old settings.

                         

                        So if I'm trying to match my tone's EQ to something else, I'll start by getting a reference clip and getting my tone at the same volume as that clip.  then i'll try to determine what the difference is in very basic terms - does it have more bass or less.  more treble or less.  I'll see if adjusting the "lows" or "highs" gets me closer.  Everything in the middle I'll have to adjust using the peak/valley part of the EQ.  I'll set the Q up to like 85%, so that I can hear clearly how it's changing my tone, and crank up the gain.  Then I'll sweep the frequency control to find the spot where it feels like i need to adjust.  i'll lower the Q to widen that spot until it feels like the size of the boost/cut i need, then adjust the gain to get it as close as I can.

                         

                        The more you mess with it, the more you'll understand what the hell I'm talking about.

                          • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
                            Dec 13, 2007

                            that's correct about using the fx loop return.  i was talking about when you're using just the mark V to illustrate the principle of dialing down pre-distortion bass to alter the muddiness of the distorted tone.

                             

                            that's a real bummer if they messed up the wiring.  can you get a good clean sound out of it?  that should tell you a lot.  also, i'd try to play it like a 6 string with the good Petrucci settings on the Mark V - ignore that deep string.  you should be able to get that awesome Petrucci tone out of it.

  • ronnied50 Just Startin' 28 posts since
    Feb 14, 2011

    What type of pickups are you using,I use stock pickups in an Ibanez 7 string using the tread plate model boosted with a tube screamer and don't get any mud,The only setting i change on the tube screamer is the output...i start at 50% and blend it till i here no jump in sound when the effect comes on.

  • chimp_spanner Just Startin' 336 posts since
    Nov 7, 2008

    Yeah I think as has already been said here the key is to use pre-distortion tone shaping to get rid of the inherant mud of a low tuned string. I also find that going easy on the gain really helps as well. The low strings seem to carry much more energy anyway, so you don't need to drive them anywhere near as hard to get a good crunchy rhythm tone.

     

    Even on the X3 Pro, all my heavy rhythm patches for 7 and 8 string guitars have the gain at half way, at the most Good luck in your quest for tone!

    • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
      Dec 13, 2007

      ok, i kind of made this an obsession, and i think i have a good Korn tone finally.  it's in the zip file and there's a clip on my tone demo page.

       

      The Marshall was giving me the kind of dirty sound I wanted for most of the notes, but it couldn't get the tight palm mutes.  Putting a Tube Screamer in front helped a little, but it needed more.

       

      I found the solution was to turn up the drive on the Screamer, so that the Screamer distorts the palm mutes, but the Marshall handles everything else, more-or-less.

       

      If you look at the "settings" link with the picture, you'll see I added a "buzzsaw" distortion.  That gives you their super dirty sound, but it's not their main tone.

       

      For live use, I would turn the cab to "no cab", then start turning slowly moving each EQ's "highs", "lows", and "gain" controls towards 50% on the parametric EQ's, and move the high gain on the Studio EQ up a bit.  Just move it until it sounds good and don't go too far.

        • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
          Dec 13, 2007

          whooooaaaa, you're not kidding!  another thing to think about is that a lot of their studio tone might be engineers doing a bunch of post-processing, or tweaking, or micing, etc.  there's a lot involved there.  also, it seems like the two guitarists have different tones on the record - one's a bit more fuzzy, while the other is pretty tight.  i'm very curious to know what they do live now that they've only got one guitarist.  i'm guessing they just play a track off a cd or something.

            • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
              Dec 13, 2007

              nice to know.  i can't stand tap dancing on all the analogs.  if i ever needed to use them, i'd get like 2-3 of each pedal and have them all set up in separate chains then just let a line switcher pick which chain to use.  the roadies can deal with setting them up and picking them up and all that.

               

              at least that's what i'd do if I had money and roadies.

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