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1946 Views 37 Replies Latest reply: Aug 31, 2012 3:05 AM by glenneke RSS
chimp_spanner Just Startin'
chimp_spanner
336 posts since
Nov 7, 2008
Currently Being Moderated

Jun 16, 2012 7:47 AM

Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

Hey guys - been doing a LOT of tweaking this weekend and I've made a bit of a breakthrough in getting really nice, aggressive tones for modern low tuned metal riffs. Up till now I've been using the Tube Screamer model before my amp as that seems to be the most widely used approach for tone boosting and adding a little extra saturation. However it's never really been the distortion I've had a problem with in the amps (I think between the pre-amp modelling and distortion you can get from the power amp there's plenty of saturation to be found) but rather the 'attack'. It seems to get lost under all the gain, and the Tube Screamer can make things a bit scratchy at times.

 

The solution, I've found, is to use a fixed wah pedal! Fully open, with the mix set anywhere from 50% upwards, and a parametric EQ in between it and the amp to tame the obnoxiousness of the sound (maximum Q, about 68% freq, 20% gain). The results are fantastic, for me at any rate. Here are a couple of clips, the first is unmixed/unmastered (and is also not my riff). The second has a better overall sound but maybe too much of the wah effect in the tone. And also the riff sucks haha. Anyway I just thought this might be helpful for people that are getting frustrated trying to get that modern metal tone using amps and distortion stomps alone.

 

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2996036/The%20Mouth%20Licking....mp3 (7 string)

 

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2996036/****%20off.mp3 (8 string tuned to F#)

 

For those interested, the chain is:

 

Gate -> Wah -> Parametric EQ -> Gate -> Amp -> Hard Gate

 

May seem like excessive gating, and usually I'm dead against it, but it seems to be required to keep the hiss under control. I reckon if I combine this approach with Meambobbo's dual cab approach I could be on to a winner!

  • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo
    meambobbo
    1,702 posts since
    Dec 13, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 16, 2012 12:27 PM (in response to chimp_spanner)
    Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

    Holy kick in the crotch, Batman!  That tone is lethal!

     

    Have you ever tried the Q Filter effect?  MFKitten on the sevenstring.org forums gets a great tone and says he likes to use that similar to how you use the wah.  I've never had great success using a wah.  I think it might sound better on the 8 string with the darker pickups, but it doesn't work well on my EBMM JPM.

     

    Please post that patch!

  • Apologist Iknowathingortwo
    Apologist
    638 posts since
    Jan 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 16, 2012 1:30 PM (in response to chimp_spanner)
    Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

    Awesomeness

  • tdollaway Just Startin'
    tdollaway
    69 posts since
    Feb 8, 2012
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 17, 2012 10:25 AM (in response to chimp_spanner)
    Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

    Wow!! Good work, man! Can you pleast post this patch? I've been trying to get a good seven string tone. And the djentier, the better!

  • chimp_spanner Just Startin'
    chimp_spanner
    336 posts since
    Nov 7, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 17, 2012 11:19 AM (in response to chimp_spanner)
    Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

    Thanks guys! Here are the patches (the F# clip was done with tone 1, and the Meshuggah riff was with tone 2). Yeah I also tried the Q Filter effect too...similar results but not quite as aggressive sounding to my ear! Anyway really happy with this tone. Will continue to experiment but it's finally making my 8 string fun to play

     

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2996036/Open%20Wah%20Rhythm%201.hre

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2996036/Open%20Wah%20Rhythm%202.hre

    • disease75 Just Startin'
      disease75
      15 posts since
      May 5, 2011
      Currently Being Moderated
      Jun 18, 2012 12:09 AM (in response to chimp_spanner)
      Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

      I can't' open the patch

      • chimp_spanner Just Startin'
        chimp_spanner
        336 posts since
        Nov 7, 2008
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jun 18, 2012 1:06 AM (in response to disease75)
        Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

        Which POD do you have? I made these on a Pro. I'm not sure how to get them to open on a 500. In any case, if you follow the chain I explained earlier you should get a similar sound pretty quickly

        • disease75 Just Startin'
          disease75
          15 posts since
          May 5, 2011
          Currently Being Moderated
          Jun 18, 2012 4:08 AM (in response to chimp_spanner)
          Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

          Yeah I have a 500 ... 

          • silverhead Expert Line 6 User
            silverhead
            9,592 posts since
            Apr 1, 2009
            Currently Being Moderated
            Jun 18, 2012 5:43 AM (in response to disease75)
            Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

            To get HD Pro patches to work on an HD500:

            - download and install HD Pro Edit

            - run HD Pro Edit in offline mode (no device connected)

            - load the HD Pro patch into HD Pro Edit

            - edit the HD Pro preset and make it compatible with the HD500 device (e.g. change any input settings that are not available on the HD500 to settings that are available).

            - drag/drop the HD500-compatible patch to any folder on your computer.

            - open HD500 Edit with the HD500 device connected

            - drag/drop the patch from your computer folder into any preset slot in HD500 Edit

            - use the SEND SELECTED command in HD500 Edit to load/save the patch to your HD500 device

             

            Hope this helps.

          • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo
            meambobbo
            1,702 posts since
            Dec 13, 2007
            Currently Being Moderated
            Jun 18, 2012 7:41 AM (in response to disease75)
            Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

            the 500 should be fully compatible with the pro.  just change the file extension from .hre to .h5e.

            • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo
              meambobbo
              1,702 posts since
              Dec 13, 2007
              Currently Being Moderated
              Jun 18, 2012 8:04 AM (in response to meambobbo)
              Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

              well, no it doesn't work... trying to figure out why now

              • Texxxxx Just Startin'
                Texxxxx
                368 posts since
                Aug 13, 2006
                Currently Being Moderated
                Jun 18, 2012 8:16 AM (in response to meambobbo)
                Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

                I've found that when using 500 patches on a Pro, the Input, in the patch, changes from 'Guitar' to 'Line R/Same', and I have to reset the Input back to 'Guitar' to make the patch work.

                 

                Maybe it happens when going from a Pro to a 500, also.

              • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo
                meambobbo
                1,702 posts since
                Dec 13, 2007
                Currently Being Moderated
                Jun 18, 2012 8:25 AM (in response to meambobbo)
                Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

                I remade them as per Silverhead's suggestion and attached them here.  Just strip the .jpg from the end of the file names and they will load in HD 500 Edit for firmware version 2.0.  NO IDEA why they don't translate.  It's complete BS.  There's no features on the Pro that make its patches incompatible with the 500.  Another stupid and possibly lazy programming decision by Line 6.

                 

                Chimp, check a couple gate settings for me - I think I'm missing something.  On patch 1, the close setting is higher than the open setting on the hard gate.  I would imagine this either means the close setting is the only setting that matters, or you get zipper type artifacts.  On patch 2, it looks like for the second Noise Gate you inversed the usual parameters of decay 10%, threshold 50%.  Was that a mistake, or does it work better like that for patch 2?

                 

                When I get some time I may try to put my own spin on these.

                Attachments:
                • silverhead Expert Line 6 User
                  silverhead
                  9,592 posts since
                  Apr 1, 2009
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Jun 18, 2012 9:15 AM (in response to meambobbo)
                  Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

                  meambobbo wrote:

                   

                  ------  There's no features on the Pro that make its patches incompatible with the 500.  ....

                  It's not the features - it's the different inputs. I think this goes back to the high-pitched squealing issue, which was traced to invalid data being present in a preset, which in turn (I believe - but don't know for sure) was at least partly due to mismatched inputs between devices. I agree with you that it should be a fairly straightforward bit of software to convert/filter the inputs and perhaps other features between the HD Bean/500/Pro to make the presets fully compatible among the devices. After all, the respective Editors are able to detect the presence of the invalid data and refuse to load the preset; presumably they could correct/reset the invalid data to reasonable valid data values at the same time and allow it to load transparently.

                   

                  However, until/unless that conversion utility is available, at least there is a fairly simple manual approach.

                  • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo
                    meambobbo
                    1,702 posts since
                    Dec 13, 2007
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Jun 18, 2012 10:39 AM (in response to silverhead)
                    Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

                    so some idiot tried to copy/paste the hd edit 500 code for the pro, and when things didn't go so well, he just put a giant if/else to can the entire patch.

                     

                    it's a bug.  anyone want to send complaints into the black hole?

                    • silverhead Expert Line 6 User
                      silverhead
                      9,592 posts since
                      Apr 1, 2009
                      Currently Being Moderated
                      Jun 18, 2012 2:57 PM (in response to meambobbo)
                      Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

                      I have done so. The feature request area is really not a black hole, but I know it can appear that way.

                       

                      And if anyone else is also submitting this feature request............

                      http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/

                       

                      .....  I think the patch conversion utility should also address the HD300/400 devices. I think it would be fairly straightorward for the utility to make some reasonable decisions and value assignments to deal with all the device incompatibilities, even the dual path differences.

                       

                      For instance, when converting an HD500 patch to HD300 the utility could:

                      - change the Input to Guitar if necessary

                      - select only Path A

                      - select No Amp if the HD500 patch has an unavailable amp

                      - delete any unavailable FX

                      - select only the first FX1/2/3 model in the HD500 patch to apply in the HD300 patch

                      - .... etc. as necessary...

                       

                      ... and similar default decisions/assignments to get the user most of the way to the desired result automatically. Manual editing would be required from there, but at least the patch could load into the respective device Editor.

                • chimp_spanner Just Startin'
                  chimp_spanner
                  336 posts since
                  Nov 7, 2008
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Jun 18, 2012 4:41 PM (in response to meambobbo)
                  Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

                  Ahh well spotted, yes that gate in patch 2 was a mistake! I'll try it with the correct settings and no doubt it'll sound/feel better!

                   

                  With regards to the hard gate, I basically turned the open threshold all the way up, played the softest I was likely to play and then gradually turned it down until it was catching my quietest playing but ignoring noise. Then I played short stops/stabs, adjusting the close until the little tail of hiss at the end was gone! Those are the settings it brought me to. I have noticed the zipper effect if I let a palm mute ring out way too long, but otherwise seems fine!

  • drache713 Just Startin'
    drache713
    1 posts since
    Feb 3, 2012
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 10, 2012 4:02 PM (in response to chimp_spanner)
    Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

    Wow both of your patches chimp and meambobbo's sound amazing! Thank you for posting these!

  • jwbrkr Just Startin'
    jwbrkr
    2 posts since
    Mar 23, 2012
    Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 29, 2012 8:02 AM (in response to chimp_spanner)
    Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

    dude, do you mind posting a valid link for those patches again? seems like dropbox deleted it... greetings from germany!

  • robbec2012 Just Startin'
    robbec2012
    16 posts since
    Aug 17, 2011
    Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 29, 2012 7:39 PM (in response to chimp_spanner)
    Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

    someone post the patch!! please!! -./

  • HDProJohn Just Startin'
    HDProJohn
    38 posts since
    Feb 16, 2012
    Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 30, 2012 7:04 AM (in response to chimp_spanner)
    Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

    This post got my interest, so much so, that I spent all night playing around with the wah configuration. It really does work well for a 7 string (didn't have as good of luck for the 6 stringer - found the TS9 to be a better match so far). It took away the shrill top end that I suffered from when trying to get more bite in the low end. Thanks to Chimp Spanner for posting this idea!

     

    Now, I've got a question, the concept confuses me. I'll explain my understanding of how these components work and hopefully someone can shed some light. A wah pedal has an associated variable mid-range band pass that's followed by a sharp low pass filter. With the wah fully open, I saw that the average frequency response (from Google Images) seems to place the peak of the hump around 1700 Hz followed by the drop-off. I didn't read anywhere that compression is an integral part of a wah, similar to the TS9, it's just a variable band pass filter with a LP filter. Ok, this makes sense so far. Basically, we're boosting the pick attack sound which is great for low tuned, djenty riffs, BUT then we come in and use a large Q on a parametric EQ and take out a bunch at 68-72% (about 1800-2100 Hz according to Meambobbo's page). That alone is confusing. We've just cut out the focused mid boost that we put in! What am I missing in the understanding? Is it because everything below the mid bump is also boosted (flat respnose boost on all low end to a mid-focus bump to a LP) and that's what we're really going after, not the pick attack boost? Or are we still putting in the pick attack with a low-end boost, but minimizing the amount of pick attack with the parametric?

     

    Sorry for the length post...

    Take it easy.

    • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo
      meambobbo
      1,702 posts since
      Dec 13, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Aug 30, 2012 9:32 AM (in response to HDProJohn)
      Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

      My best guess would be that the Wah is mainly used for its LP filter.  The mids-peak is going to make the tone too thin, distorting it heavily at that one spot - probably too much so.  That'd give you a kind of splatty pick attack.  The Parametric smooths out the mid peak so that you get more frequencies pushed to distortion for fuller sound, but you're still sucking out enough bass to prevent the distortion from getting farty.

       

      I can't look at the patch right now, but that's how I think I remember it. If the Parametric is after the amp, though, then it'd just be scooping the EQ for the final tone, not trying to dial in a specific distortion tone.

      • HDProJohn Just Startin'
        HDProJohn
        38 posts since
        Feb 16, 2012
        Currently Being Moderated
        Aug 30, 2012 10:54 AM (in response to meambobbo)
        Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

        That makes perfect sense. Introduce a controllable LP filter and then smooth over the introduced hump without having to eat up a bunch of FX blocks for some preamp EQing since there isn't a very good EQ ITB. It sure would be nice to get a multi-band parametric EQ with Hz & dB vs. % & %; maybe some shelves too.

         

        Thank you for the response, meambobbo.

        • meambobbo Iknowathingortwo
          meambobbo
          1,702 posts since
          Dec 13, 2007
          Currently Being Moderated
          Aug 30, 2012 11:02 AM (in response to HDProJohn)
          Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!

          As an aside, and not to steer this thread elsewhere, I just wanted to mention that the Line 6 Drive I am now finding fairly invaluable in its ability to dial in almost precisely the mids peak you want, using the mids parameter, which seems to act as a shift, not as gain.  Then you dial in Bass and Treble to taste.  The only issue is at high mids settings, the tone can get kind of splatty, which you need to clean up via a Mid-Focus EQ or maybe a Studio.

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