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Is It Microphonic?


Best Answer phil_m , 19 June 2013 - 12:25 PM

I've got to say that I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be trying to hear, but nothing sounds weird to me in that clip. How did you record it? With a mic or direct via the DT25's XLR out? It sounds like there may be a little bit of ring coming through from the trem springs. Even then, though, it doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me. It sounds like what I'd expect a Strat through a clean Twin Reverb to sound like, more or less.

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#1 Melissiah

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 11:18 AM

After my high ugly frequency that I can't name http://line6.com/sup...high-frequency/

I think the best way to show it is by audio so here it is

 

Strat direct into dt25 voicing 1

 

It's not the guitar I tried with 4 different models including non-vibrato ones

 

I did the pencil test on tubes and they are deadly quiet

 

 

Any ideas how I can fix that?


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#2 phil_m

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:25 PM   Best Answer

I've got to say that I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be trying to hear, but nothing sounds weird to me in that clip. How did you record it? With a mic or direct via the DT25's XLR out? It sounds like there may be a little bit of ring coming through from the trem springs. Even then, though, it doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me. It sounds like what I'd expect a Strat through a clean Twin Reverb to sound like, more or less.


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#3 toneman2121

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:50 PM

I've got to say that I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be trying to hear, but nothing sounds weird to me in that clip. How did you record it? With a mic or direct via the DT25's XLR out? It sounds like there may be a little bit of ring coming through from the trem springs. Even then, though, it doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me. It sounds like what I'd expect a Strat through a clean Twin Reverb to sound like, more or less.

ditto

 

listening through headphones, i don't hear anything odd either. so plus 1 to phil. perhaps it doesn't come through with the recording you made, melissiah, have you listened to the recording you posted here?


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#4 Melissiah

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:31 AM

 It sounds like there may be a little bit of ring coming through from the trem springs. Even then, though, it doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me. It sounds like what I'd expect a Strat through a clean Twin Reverb to sound like, more or less.

As stated before I tried with 4 different guitars. Strat, Tele, Les Paul and musicman john petrucci. 2 doesn't have trem springs. I know that hum is a part of modeling of some amps and you can turn the mob down but the sound gets thinner...

 

Are you telling me that thoses feedbacks are part of the modeling?

 

Trust me they are more apparents beside the amps vs my recording. Guitar to dt25(voicing 1 everything at noon) to sm57 off center to roland vs2480dvd studio.

 

My girlfriend and my daughter hear it too. So I am not crazy, I was afraid a few seconds tho after reading the 2 previous answers lol

 

After a few chords I feel like I have the tinnitus syndrome. I'll go to a music store to try a Twin reverb to be sure it's not normal... If it's part of a modeling it's a bad one.


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#5 phil_m

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:23 AM

Well, if you're using an SM57 off center, there will be a natural high-end roll off from the mic. So it could very well be that what your hearing from the amp is being recorded over the mic. Do you hear it in your recording?


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#6 Melissiah

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:55 AM

Mic have nothing to do with the feedback background sound. I use a mic just to show in my post the sound I dislike from my amp.

 

I tried another 12ax7, tung sol reissue that I removed from my mesa dual recto just to test and it's still there. I can't do the same with power tubes cause I don't own other amp that use el84.


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#7 phil_m

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:08 AM

You didn't answer my question, though... Do you actually hear the feedback you're describing in the clip you posted? Because, like I said earlier, I don't hear anything unusual in that clip.


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#8 Melissiah

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:22 AM

Yes I hear it on the record. Not much on th G chords but on F# it's terrible to me.


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#9 RonMarton

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:22 AM

....So I am not crazy, I was afraid a few seconds tho after reading the 2 previous answers lol...


Sorry to disappoint you, Melissiah...

...But (as I'm sure your girlfriend will testify) nearly all the fanatics who appear in this forum are crazy. (Just not necessarily in the way you meant.) :wacko: :lol:

Another problem we all share is the difficulty we have when trying to actually describe a particular sound, be that sound loved or hated.

Like you, I don't think I'm "talking myself into it", as my Focal monitors and HD25 headsets do both seem to reveal an unusual (and unpleasant) harmonically distorted "ringing" that's evident on each transient peak from the 20 second "mark" to the end of your sample.

I believe that it's unlikely to be any sort of thermionic valve-induced "microphonics", so "tube swapping" is equally unlikely to effect a "cure".

My guess (and sadly, it must be only a "guess", at this stage) is that the lovely, open, top-end transparency that's evident in all of Reinhold Bogner's (and incidentally also in Hughes & Kettner's) designs may have revealed something that's "harmonically nasty" to be going on in the connection from your instruments to the input of your amp.

So, rather than "tube swapping", a "one at a time" swapping of every single component that's in the path from instrument to amp would seem to be worth trying, even if that's only a single cable.

F.Y.I... It sounds "nuts", but I have had an absolutely top-quality cable start to affect sound in a manner very like this after years of perfect service, only to sound perfect again after having been left back at base for a few months. ...Aargh !!!

Re-introduced to life on the road, the weirdness returned. :angry: Turned out to be moisture related ! Tiny road-related "nicks" and punctures in the jacket had allowed moisture to penetrate, giving that cable a unique inductive, resistive and capacitive profile. :rolleyes:
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#10 Melissiah

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 12:17 PM

Thanks, good to know than someone else hear that crap. And trust me, it's twice or more apparent from the amp.

 

I'm gonna try with my 4x12 mesa cab to see if it can be a speaker problem (I don't think so but...)

I'll try another cable too

 

A fact is that the speaker is like 1/8 inchs from a big electric thing and I saw some post of guys who had audio problems with their amps and it was solved by replacing it. It was doing interference or whatever I don't know...


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#11 RonMarton

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 12:30 PM

Like you, I'm guessing that the cable or speaker are far more likely to be involved than any sort of interference, Melissiah.

 

A faulty amplifier remains a remote possibility, but one that you could check out by using a mini to guitar jack adapter to replay an iPod or Laptop via your amp's input.

 

A loud and clean replay (even from just one "half" of a stereo recording) will clear your DT25. 


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#12 Melissiah

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:39 PM

Ok +1 to all answers, thanks all

Tried 12ax7 , chinese, mesa, sovtek lps, EH and Tung Sol
Swap both el34
different cables
different guitars
different cabs

That feedback noise is totaly innacceptable. I won't tolerate it when I sing and there is no reason I'll tolerate it while playing. You don't hear it? Good for you but I do. I made some awsome patchs, that amp is awsome and I'll share them with community as soon as I fix my problems. (Like pink floyd leads muff and tube driver before dual amp...)

The music store close to me have a DT50 stock. I'm gonna try it again. If I still hear that feedback crap, I'll keep my DT25 and try to live with it but if I don't hear this I'll order a new one cause it's NOT NORMAL!

Thanks all

edit:
bah already reach +1 quotas for today. I have so much love to give I'll need a 2nd account lol
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#13 RonMarton

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:55 PM

The music store close to me have a DT50 stock. I'm gonna try it again. If I still hear that feedback crap, I'll keep my DT25 and try to live with it but if I don't hear this I'll order a new one cause it's NOT NORMAL!


If that new one from your local store sounds clean, I'd like to think that yours could be replaced under warranty...

...Provided that you carefully return it to it to its original condition.

Edited by RonMarton, 20 June 2013 - 02:01 PM.
Added "Provided that..."

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#14 Melissiah

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:45 AM

Did the test at store. My dt25 beside a dt50 and that microphonic feedback is present in both amps. I tried a fender amp and it's there again. So it's part of the modeling... Presence knob is very sensitive with that high frequency so I'll try to not crank it too much on my clean sounds.


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#15 RonMarton

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:35 PM

...It sounds like what I'd expect a Strat through a clean Twin Reverb to sound like, more or less.

 

So, my thinking (for what it's worth) Melissiah...

 

...is that it might be worth taking the time to "step back" here, to clarify the audio terminology for the benefit of others.

 

All who replied to your topic (carefully and thoughtfully) listened to the same artefact.

 

That artefact is undoubtedly present in the sample you provided, but you and I were alone in our preference for a more "natural" (maybe more "acoustic") tone with less of the edgy "pre-emphasis" that I described as being

 

 

...an unusual (and unpleasant) harmonically distorted "ringing" that's evident on each transient peak from the 20 second "mark" to the end of your sample.

 

As it happens, (and as phil_m so rightly predicted) it would seem that you've now comprehensively proven the accuracy of Line 6's "Fender" modelling, but it also happens that "your" (and in some cases, "my") desired sound is not necessarily the one Leo Fender had in mind when he developed his guitars alongside his legendary "Twin Reverb" amp, which was unique at the time in having its enclosed, oil-damped, spring reverb and a carefully contrived open-backed enclosure that houses a pair of ("twin") speakers.

 

(It seems that your and my sensibilities may accord slightly more with Leo's contemporary "competitor" in electrifying the instrument, the equally legendary Les Paul...)

 

My main aim in posting this is to ensure folks' awareness of the fact that, as far as audio terminology goes, the artefact in question is neither "microphonic", nor is it "feedback".

 

"Microphonic" refers to a shaking loose or inadequate mounting in respect of a thermionic valve's grid assembly. This results in that valve (or "tube") behaving somewhat like a microphone in its response to external vibrations, sometimes to the extent that any tapping on such a valve's glass envelope will be clearly audible at the speakers. It follows that such "microphony" (or "microphonics") is (or are) but one possible source of "feedback".

 

"Feedback" (in an audio context) refers to any return of amplified or artificially modified sound to either device's (amp's or effects unit's) input or inputs, ...the excess of which is all too familiar to us as the dreaded "howl around" or "ring around".    


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#16 toneman2121

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:25 PM

RonMarton

 

this gotta be you http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0554267/


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#17 RonMarton

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:01 PM

It sure is, toneman2121...


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#18 toneman2121

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:28 PM

you must really know your audio lollipop :P


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#19 RonMarton

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:48 PM

All I really know is that there's so much more I've yet to learn...


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#20 toneman2121

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:52 PM

that made me chuckle :)  


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