HD500x signal flexibility

[kylotan]

I'm hoping to upgrade from my venerable GT-10 to a HD500x, but I'm not sure whether the HD can do what I want. Maybe you can advise!

 

I'd be using the unit live and I usually use 2 to 4 different tones in a song, so I do what I can to cut the patch switching time down and avoid any audible drop-outs. On the GT-10, I would mostly do this via switching between the 2 channels which is instant (whereas loading a new patch is not). To complicate matters, I use the 4CM because I want to use my amp's distortion. So my typical effects chain would look roughly like this:

 

 

The GT-10 allows me to press the current patch switch to toggle between path A (the Clean amp sim above) and path B (the overdrive and the send/return block), so basically one stomp to switch between clean and distorted with no drop-outs.

 

A couple of questions about this:

 

1) The GT-10 allows me to press the current patch switch to toggle between path A (the Clean amp sim above) and path B (the overdrive and the send/return block). I couldn't find anything in the HD500x manual to either re-use the current patch switch OR to even switch between the 2 amp paths. Is there a way for me to get the above signal chain, and to be able to switch between those paths with one click?

 

2) The GT-10 allows you to place noise reduction at the end of the chain, but still trigger it on the guitar source rather than the previous block in the chain. This is why lots of noise reduction pedals have send/return loops on them. But the HD500x manual implies that their noise reduction block can't do this. Is that the case? I could move it in front of the overdrive as a compromise, but then I'm going to get amp noise coming through. If I leave it at the end, it's going to be impossible to calibrate it to trigger correctly on both the clean and the distorted input.

 

3) Are there any other problems with this approach? Any concerns with sending a clean amp sim into my real power amp? Is there a better way of doing what I want to do, while still using the HD500x's clean sims and my real amp's distorted channel? I'd consider just having the clean and distorted paths on different patches, but I'm worried that with there being an audible patch switching time, and no capability for reverb or delay spills to fill the gaps, that it wouldn't really cut it live.

[radatats]

A couple of questions about this:

 

1) The GT-10 allows me to press the current patch switch to toggle between path A (the Clean amp sim above) and path B (the overdrive and the send/return block). I couldn't find anything in the HD500x manual to either re-use the current patch switch OR to even switch between the 2 amp paths. Is there a way for me to get the above signal chain, and to be able to switch between those paths with one click?

 

- No, there is no channel switching within the same patch.  You can place a Vol block set to zero in front of the clean amp in a dual amp patch with no amp selected in the other channel. Place the FX Loop in the no amp channel to go to your real amp.  You would then assign the Volume and FX Loop to the same Foot Switch so when you press it, it turns both blocks on or off.  With the Volume on at zero, the clean amp is blocked and the FX Loop comes on to get your real amp signal.  Opposite when they are off.

 

2) The GT-10 allows you to place noise reduction at the end of the chain, but still trigger it on the guitar source rather than the previous block in the chain. This is why lots of noise reduction pedals have send/return loops on them. But the HD500x manual implies that their noise reduction block can't do this. Is that the case? I could move it in front of the overdrive as a compromise, but then I'm going to get amp noise coming through. If I leave it at the end, it's going to be impossible to calibrate it to trigger correctly on both the clean and the distorted input.

 

- Again, not as far I know.  It just sees the signal coming into it based on where it is in the chain.  You can set it to the same FS as the Volume and FX Loop so it only comes on with your real amp.  You probably won't need it with the clean amp anyways.

 

3) Are there any other problems with this approach? Any concerns with sending a clean amp sim into my real power amp? Is there a better way of doing what I want to do, while still using the HD500x's clean sims and my real amp's distorted channel? I'd consider just having the clean and distorted paths on different patches, but I'm worried that with there being an audible patch switching time, and no capability for reverb or delay spills to fill the gaps, that it wouldn't really cut it live.

 

- You would be fine using the method I described.  However, it does take a couple of FX blocks away if you want to get creative with other effects.  If you decide to get a POD come back to these boards for assistance.  I am glad to help as are many others here.

[kylotan]

Ok, that's disappointing about there being no channel switching. (Why? What were L6 thinking?) If I use an extra volume block, it looks like I can't use the chain I want to because that's now 9 fx blocks: the channel switcher volume, overdrive, send/return, harmonizer, chorus, delay, reverb, noise reduction, and the volume pedal would be the 9th. I rarely use the harmonizer so I could ditch that for all but one song, but I could really do with a solo boost as well, and an EQ for playing leads. So this isn't ideal.

 

Another idea I had was to have 2 patches, one clean and one through the amp. Since it would always be going to or from clean, the drop-out might not be so noticeable. But I'm still hitting that 8 fx block limit even without the channel switching volume block. That might be the deal breaker.

 

It's also a shame about the noise reduction, since it makes a lot of sense to have it operate on a loop. (The Decimator pedals don't come with a loop... that's why they advise you to buy 2, one for before the amp, for the FX loop!) Still, it's true that I probably won't need or want it with the cleans.

 

I'm going to have to give this serious thought, because it's hard to justify an 'upgrade' that is going to lose me 3 or 4 effects when compared to my GT-10. Maybe I should wait and see if they announce anything better at NAMM next year.

[radatats]

You can always do away with the final Volume block by just assigning the expression pedal to the amp Channel Volume instead.  That trick works great. 

 

One other thing is just because there are 8 blocks available, doesn't mean you won't run out of DSP trying to set up an effects intensive patch.  You may be better off setting up multiple patches and switching.  There isn't a big deal switching patches as far as I can tell.  You may need to adjust your style a fraction but its definitely workable.  It is more of an issue it you are using a DT amp with your POD as the amp has to physically change the power section for certain models and that can be noticeable.

[pfsmith0]

1) You could sacrifice your volume pedal or get a 2nd (external) pedal and use it to "blend" the two signal paths via the mixer (so it doesn't use up another FX block). Toe = Overdriven path. Heal = Clean path. It's not actually a "switch" per se but you can use it like one. It also has the benefit of allowing you to blend the two channels at various mix levels to perhaps give you some additional tones you don't current get.

 

2) That's a cool GT-10 feature. I have not yet found that in any of the HD500x FX, but someone here will undoubtedly point it out if that is available.

 

3) Some people have had good results using an amp sim into a real amp. Others not so much. The consensus seems to be to NOT use the cabinet/mic sims and perhaps to ONLY use the amp pre sims (doesn't include the power amp sims). Start with those choices and tweak from there. Others say to just switch to one of the output modes made specifically for driving an amp. I go to a PA so don't have any firsthand experience one way or the other.

[pfsmith0]

FYI, the HD500x has a 5-15msec mute each time a new patch is called in. Some have had no issues and can work around it. I have all sorts of issues and attempt to configure my signal chain so I never have to call in a new patch in the middle of a song.

[pfsmith0]

Also, note that with your signal chain you will be using the switches in FS1-8 mode, not ABCD mode. That is, each foot switch will turn on/off an FX. Patches would then be switched in using the bank up/down switches followed by an FS press. That's probably more foot dancing than you want in the middle of a song so you don't have to worry about delays. Calling up a new patch would only occur between songs. Within a song you will only have the 8 on/off switches, and the pedal(s), available to you. These operate instantly.

[kylotan]

You can always do away with the final Volume block by just assigning the expression pedal to the amp Channel Volume instead.  That trick works great. 

 

One other thing is just because there are 8 blocks available, doesn't mean you won't run out of DSP trying to set up an effects intensive patch.  You may be better off setting up multiple patches and switching.  There isn't a big deal switching patches as far as I can tell.  You may need to adjust your style a fraction but its definitely workable.  It is more of an issue it you are using a DT amp with your POD as the amp has to physically change the power section for certain models and that can be noticeable.

 

Could I assign the volume pedal to the amp channel volume AND the return level on the send/return block? That's what I'd need to do, to be able to shut both off.

 

 

I don't consider 8 effects to be really effects intensive, which is perhaps where Line 6 and I differ. My GT-10 handles about 10 effects in series without problem. Even my venerable XT Live could handle plenty - compressor, gate, eq, stomp, mod, delay, reverb, wah, and volume all available in every patch, before you add in the amp and cab. I know the quality of the effects has gone up, and there's more flexibility these days, but that means nothing if I can't use enough of them to reproduce the sound I've had for years.

 

I'm not convinced that I can get around patch switching dropouts just by changing my style. If the silence is up to 15ms, as pfsmith0 has suggested, then that is going to be very audible no matter what I do. You really need spillover to mask a gap like that, and the HD500x won't do that apparently.

[kylotan]

1) You could sacrifice your volume pedal or get a 2nd (external) pedal and use it to "blend" the two signal paths via the mixer (so it doesn't use up another FX block). Toe = Overdriven path. Heal = Clean path. It's not actually a "switch" per se but you can use it like one. It also has the benefit of allowing you to blend the two channels at various mix levels to perhaps give you some additional tones you don't current get.

 

2) That's a cool GT-10 feature. I have not yet found that in any of the HD500x FX, but someone here will undoubtedly point it out if that is available.

 

3) Some people have had good results using an amp sim into a real amp. Others not so much. The consensus seems to be to NOT use the cabinet/mic sims and perhaps to ONLY use the amp pre sims (doesn't include the power amp sims). Start with those choices and tweak from there. Others say to just switch to one of the output modes made specifically for driving an amp. I go to a PA so don't have any firsthand experience one way or the other.

 

The blending thing isn't going to work for me - I need instant switches from one to the other or it's just going to sound weird.

 

It's a real shame that the HD500x doesn't let you assign the switches to all the same things you can assign the expression pedals to. That would have solved a lot of these issues.

 

It makes sense about not using the simulated power amp and cab section in my situation, and that is exactly what I intended to do. But the combination of limited FX within one preset and the 15ms mute when changing between different ones is looking like a deal-breaker for me.

 

Also, note that with your signal chain you will be using the switches in FS1-8 mode, not ABCD mode.

I don't think it really matters, but I usually only need 2 or 3 different tone switches within one song - clean <--> distorted, all of reverb/chorus/delay off or on, and maybe an effect like the harmonizer - so I'd just assign the relevant changes to 3 switches, and I could do that in ABCD mode too, right? I don't really want or need to be able to switch each effect individually - I'm just trying to get the effect of full patch switches without drop-outs.

[radatats]

Could I assign the volume pedal to the amp channel volume AND the return level on the send/return block? That's what I'd need to do, to be able to shut both off.

 

I don't consider 8 effects to be really effects intensive, which is perhaps where Line 6 and I differ. My GT-10 handles about 10 effects in series without problem. Even my venerable XT Live could handle plenty - compressor, gate, eq, stomp, mod, delay, reverb, wah, and volume all available in every patch, before you add in the amp and cab. I know the quality of the effects has gone up, and there's more flexibility these days, but that means nothing if I can't use enough of them to reproduce the sound I've had for years.

 

I'm not convinced that I can get around patch switching dropouts just by changing my style. If the silence is up to 15ms, as pfsmith0 has suggested, then that is going to be very audible no matter what I do. You really need spillover to mask a gap like that, and the HD500x won't do that apparently.

 

Great idea about the expression pedal controlling the amp channel volume and the fx loop return level.  Pretty sure that would work but I honestly can't remember if the FX loop return can be set to zero...  Might have to switch to the clean amp and then turn that down...

 

As far as the DSP goes, you can use all 8 blocks along with an amp but certain effects and amp combinations use tons of DSP just due to their HD modeling.  I just said that so you weren't surprised later.  You may never run into that with your choice of effects.  However, pitch effects do use DSP.

 

I think you will be good to go with the POD HD even with your proposed configuration.

[talwilkins]

As far I know, you can make a dual amp patch and assign both to an effect switch (say FS1).

Then, if you turn one amp off and the other on, FS1 will toggle the amps.

You will need to turn the bypass volume to 0 on both amps. You can do that when the amp is turned of (Channel volume becomes bypass volume).

This way FS1 effectively becomes an A/B switch.

[Rewolf48]

What Talwilkins said.  One switch turns off/on the amp sim (bypass volume set to zero) and turn on/off the FX Loop (will send out signal), switch it off and the two are reversed - amp sim becomes active and fx loop send is cut. You don't need a second amp model, just the overdrive and FX loop.

[radatats]

What Talwilkins said.  One switch turns off/on the amp sim (bypass volume set to zero) and turn on/off the FX Loop (will send out signal), switch it off and the two are reversed - amp sim becomes active and fx loop send is cut. You don't need a second amp model, just the overdrive and FX loop.

 

duh... don't know why I didn't think of that. forgot you can set the bypass volume to zero, great call...

[kylotan]

Ah yes, that would work well in most situations. One switch toggles everything. I can see it getting confusing if I make any other switched adjustments though - for example, if I use another switch to add reverb and delay (eg. for making a rhythm sound into a lead sound), switching back to clean is going to toggle all those effects off, right?

 

This is probably all academic if I can't get my entire chain in there. Even by assigning the volume pedal to amp/return levels, I still need more slots than it's giving me.

[radatats]

no you missed the point.  One FS for amp switching not involving any other FX blocks.  All your other FS are free to do what you need them to do.

[kylotan]

I don't think I missed the point. But maybe I wasn't clear about what I meant. I need one switch to switch the amps AND switch fx at the same time. I don't want it set up like a conventional pedalboard where I toggle each effect individually because I routinely need to make large changes to the sound instantly.

[radatats]

I think you really need to try one out.  Everything you want to do can be done but its kind of hard to do just a theoretical exercise here.  If you decide to get one and want help let me know.  Using a second expression pedal is probably the best way to do everything you want at one time.  Up to 50 separate parameters can be assigned to the pedal so you can really make a huge change to your tone at one time.  Good luck!