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Best Answer thorneven , 27 June 2013 - 10:14 AM

It is normal. On any "standard-tuned" 12-string you play in a retail store, you'll hear that the two B strings play the same pitch and the two high E strings play the same pitch.

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#1 guilhordas

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:57 AM

Please clarify me one doubt, in models of acoustic guitar 12 strings , the treble strings B and E do not have the octave? is this normal?
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#2 thorneven

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 10:14 AM   Best Answer

It is normal. On any "standard-tuned" 12-string you play in a retail store, you'll hear that the two B strings play the same pitch and the two high E strings play the same pitch.


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#3 guilhordas

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:11 PM

the only acoustic guitar that I like is the jumbo, 5 position. It is possible to copy jumbo to custom and , through the workbench ,build a acoustic guitar 12 through the jumbo?
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#4 silverhead

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:17 PM

Yes - you can do that. For authenticity, as thorneven has said, do not add the octave on the high E and B strings. Just double them at the same pitch.


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#5 guilhordas

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:36 PM

I was trying to make the workbench but the message that appears is 12 string is not avaliable when using this body model
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#6 silverhead

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:13 PM

Well, then - sorry for the misinformation. I guess I never tried to do that.


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#7 thorneven

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:03 PM

Oh yeah, the problem with 12-string is that you cannot do an alternate tuning because the 12-string is already an alternate tuning so you cannot have 2 alternate tunings.


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#8 TheRealZap

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:46 PM

thats only true on the original variax, you can alt tune/capo the 12's on the JTV's

 

Oh yeah, the problem with 12-string is that you cannot do an alternate tuning because the 12-string is already an alternate tuning so you cannot have 2 alternate tunings.


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#9 thorneven

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:03 PM

thats only true on the original variax, you can alt tune/capo the 12's on the JTV's

Then please tell me how because I tried creating an alternate tuning (open E tuning: E1/E1octave B1/B1octave E2/E2octave B2/B2octave E3/E3 G/G)  on my JTV59 for a 12-string preset and couldn't do it.  The 12-string *INCLUDES* an alternate tuning already which is for 6 of the 12 strings.


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#10 clay-man

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 10:05 PM

The high E and B string act as chorus strings as opposed to octave strings.

 

In workbench, I could change the secondary string's pitch on the model preset. I'm not sure if you can do that on a JTV though.


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#11 thorneven

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:30 AM

In workbench, I could change the secondary string's pitch on the model preset. I'm not sure if you can do that on a JTV though.

Exactly. I can change 6 of the 12 strings in Workbench but not all 12. Hence I cannot get the alternate tuning I want.


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#12 snhirsch

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:40 AM

Exactly. I can change 6 of the 12 strings in Workbench but not all 12. Hence I cannot get the alternate tuning I want.

 

I believe you that workbench will not support this, since it predates the Tyler Variax electronics.  But, have you tried using the JTV's built-in function for "learning" alternate tunings?  Granted I have not tried open-E on the twelve string, but I was easily able to model a 12-string with a capo at the third fret.  That sort of suggests that it is possible to offset all 12 strings.  This can also be done through the HD500 in a more robust manner (the "learn" feature can be a bit fussy and sometimes requires a couple of tries).


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#13 thorneven

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:51 AM

I believe you that workbench will not support this, since it predates the Tyler Variax electronics.  But, have you tried using the JTV's built-in function for "learning" alternate tunings?  Granted I have not tried open-E on the twelve string, but I was easily able to model a 12-string with a capo at the third fret.  That sort of suggests that it is possible to offset all 12 strings.  This can also be done through the HD500 in a more robust manner (the "learn" feature can be a bit fussy and sometimes requires a couple of tries).

"Offset", which is what Virtual Capo provides, is not what I want.  I need the capability to tweak the pitch of all strings in a 12-string model.  I spent an hour trying to make it work and could find no solution.  I simply could not alter the pitch on 6 of the 12 strings.


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#14 guilhordas

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:13 AM

the only thing I want is to have exactly the same tone of the 6 string jumbo (5 position) but with 12 strings, but am not having success doing this in the workbench when I try to make the error message on the body, etc.
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#15 clay-man

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:03 AM

"Offset", which is what Virtual Capo provides, is not what I want.  I need the capability to tweak the pitch of all strings in a 12-string model.  I spent an hour trying to make it work and could find no solution.  I simply could not alter the pitch on 6 of the 12 strings.

 

It's probably not possible then. Like he stated, Workbench must only shift the secondary strings, not all the strings. 

I'm not sure if you can hard edit the pitch of the strings on the presets, you'll just have to use virtual capo and use your assignable built in tunings


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#16 TheRealZap

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:04 AM

"Offset", which is what Virtual Capo provides, is not what I want.  I need the capability to tweak the pitch of all strings in a 12-string model.  I spent an hour trying to make it work and could find no solution.  I simply could not alter the pitch on 6 of the 12 strings.

i was specifically referring to simply dialing in the alt tune on the knob, or the virtual capo.

but i do know that you can tweak the strings on the 12, because the B and E string comes slightly off on purpose to add a more real feel to it...

i remember nick mattocks saying that he tweaked that out, because he found it annoying...

but we're talking a few cents or something not complete alt tuning for each individual 12 strings....

having said all that, nick is no longer around, and i've not done it personally so i can't add much beyond that i know it can be done (to the degree mentioned at a min)

 

the only thing I want is to have exactly the same tone of the 6 string jumbo (5 position) but with 12 strings, but am not having success doing this in the workbench when I try to make the error message on the body, etc.

i'm reasonably confident this can't be done at this point....

but there has been a new version in the works for over 6 months...as was previously announced....

i'd highly suggest adding your request while they are actively working on it....

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/


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#17 guilhordas

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:45 AM

i was specifically referring to simply dialing in the alt tune on the knob, or the virtual capo.

but i do know that you can tweak the strings on the 12, because the B and E string comes slightly off on purpose to add a more real feel to it...

i remember nick mattocks saying that he tweaked that out, because he found it annoying...

but we're talking a few cents or something not complete alt tuning for each individual 12 strings....

having said all that, nick is no longer around, and i've not done it personally so i can't add much beyond that i know it can be done (to the degree mentioned at a min)

 

i'm reasonably confident this can't be done at this point....

but there has been a new version in the works for over 6 months...as was previously announced....

i'd highly suggest adding your request while they are actively working on it....

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/

ok zap, already put there


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#18 snhirsch

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:40 PM

"Offset", which is what Virtual Capo provides, is not what I want.  I need the capability to tweak the pitch of all strings in a 12-string model.  I spent an hour trying to make it work and could find no solution.  I simply could not alter the pitch on 6 of the 12 strings.

 

I thought I heard you say you want an alternate tuning (Open E) for a 12-string where the virtual "pairs" of strings are doing what you'd expect on a real 12-string, i.e. 3,4,5,6 string in octaves and 1,2 in unision?  For example, the JTV 59 has a built in alternate tuning  for "Open D".  If you select one of the 12-string models and dial the alternate tuning to "Open D", are you not getting all 12-strings cooperating in that tuning?   If so, then it should be possible to put the guitar into its internal "learn" mode (documented in the manual) and define an Open E.  Once locked in, that will apply to 12-string models along with everything else.

 

If I'm getting this wrong, can you please explain again - string by string - what you would like to do and why the solution I'm describing isn't accomplishing it?   Not trying to be dense, but there's something I'm not grasping.


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#19 nikoniablue

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:30 AM

Jumping back in the thread a bit, I believe the fact that you can't make a 12 string out of the jumbo relates just to the new HD acoustic models.  I assume it's because all of the processing power is taken up with the 6 string model. This was specified in the support text for the installation.  It should be possible with the older acoustic models.


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#20 thorneven

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:53 AM

I thought I heard you say you want an alternate tuning (Open E) for a 12-string where the virtual "pairs" of strings are doing what you'd expect on a real 12-string, i.e. 3,4,5,6 string in octaves and 1,2 in unision?  For example, the JTV 59 has a built in alternate tuning  for "Open D".  If you select one of the 12-string models and dial the alternate tuning to "Open D", are you not getting all 12-strings cooperating in that tuning?   If so, then it should be possible to put the guitar into its internal "learn" mode (documented in the manual) and define an Open E.  Once locked in, that will apply to 12-string models along with everything else.

 

If I'm getting this wrong, can you please explain again - string by string - what you would like to do and why the solution I'm describing isn't accomplishing it?   Not trying to be dense, but there's something I'm not grasping.

I haven't had a chance to work on this issue. What I can tell you is that I could not create the tuning using Variax Workbench.  I didn't try doing it manually using the guitar only so maybe that's the trick.  I just figured if Workbench can't do it, it couldn't be done.  The tuning I'm trying to create is E1/E2, B1/B2, E2/E3, B2/B3, E3/E3, G#3/G#3.  I don't recall on which model I was trying.  Probably the Rick 12-string, bridge pickup.


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#21 snhirsch

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:06 AM

I haven't had a chance to work on this issue. What I can tell you is that I could not create the tuning using Variax Workbench.  I didn't try doing it manually using the guitar only so maybe that's the trick.  I just figured if Workbench can't do it, it couldn't be done.  The tuning I'm trying to create is E1/E2, B1/B2, E2/E3, B2/B3, E3/E3, G#3/G#3.  I don't recall on which model I was trying.  Probably the Rick 12-string, bridge pickup.

 

No, you cannot do this from the Workbench - that's the point.  The Workbench predates the Variax JTV electronics and cannot swizzle any of the new features!  The older model guitars had alternate tuning intertwined with modeling and indeed could not do what you are trying to accomplish.  The JTV has these concepts completely separate.  Just as the built-in Open D will shift all 12 strings of the Rick models (or acoustic) to a what a real 12-string would do, you can "train" it to replace one of the built-in alternate tunings with your desired Open E and do the same.  You do not even need to be in the 12-string model, as the "training" operation works at a very low level.   Warning: It is a bit fussy and I find it can take several tries before it correctly tracks your input!

 

The procedure is documented in the JTV Pilot's Guide and there's also a short video on the Line 6 website.


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#22 thorneven

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:22 AM

Now I understand !  Thanks.


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#23 matthewlangridge

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:33 AM

Yer, I've just update my workbench to HD - now my 12 strings guitars aren't able to change the semitones of the individual strings. I was doing an octave LOWER on the low E and A - giving me a bass sound on those 2 notes, good for the music I play, but the new workbench HD won't let me do this!!! Sucks big time.....likely will have to go back to the old workbench, I guess.....


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#24 Rewolf48

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:47 AM

I agree that it is a pain that you can only octave or unison, but there is nothing stopping you doing second string Octave Up, and then custom tuning the whole string down an octave


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#25 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:32 AM

If you physically tune any string down an octave it's not going to sound good. 


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