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Curious to know how Dreamers are pairing JTV models with amp models.

 

The JTV models sound great when recording but they take on a "hollow" even "microphonic" quality to them when playing through the DT.

 

Does anyone else experience the same thing?

 

Share what works for you.

 

Thanx!

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I don't have a DT amp so can't comment on that. I go Studio out direct to PA/monitors.

 

I tend to go for classic rock tones, and I generally match my models to the equipment most often used by the classic artists. For instance, I will generally match a Fender guitar (T-model and Spank banks) with a Fender amp model (Blackface, Deluxe, Tweed). I'll use a Gibson guitar (Lester, Special, Semi banks) with a Marshall-like amp model (there are many), and I'll go for the early-British invasion of the 60's with the R-Billy or Chime models and the VOX amps (early Beatles sound).

 

Can't wait to try the Jazzbox JTV models with the pending JC120 HD amp model.

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I don't have a DT amp so can't comment on that. I go Studio out direct to PA/monitors.

 

I tend to go for classic rock tones, and I generally match my models to the equipment most often used by the classic artists. For instance, I will generally match a Fender guitar (T-model and Spank banks) with a Fender amp model (Blackface, Deluxe, Tweed). I'll use a Gibson guitar (Lester, Special, Semi banks) with a Marshall-like amp model (there are many), and I'll go for the early-British invasion of the 60's with the R-Billy or Chime models and the VOX amps (early Beatles sound).

 

Can't wait to try the Jazzbox JTV models with the pending JC120 HD amp model.

 

I'm a classic rock/blues/funk player myself. I yet to find a use for any of the hi gain stuff offered. I pretty much stick with the amps you mentioned. I just did an A/B of my DT and my L2M using a T-Model. I clearly hear a "microphonic" tone quality to the models across the board. It is less pronounced when playing chords or on overdriven patches. But if you are playing clean lead work, I definitely hear this "hollow" quality. I have a Schecter Ultra III (a fantastic guitar btw. You should check one out if you ever get a chance!) I had to wax pot the pickups to get rid of that microphonic quality. Eventually I just replaced the pickups all together. 

 

I digress…The point being, the Variax Models on clean patches sound just like my Ultra III prior to wax potting. Even when going P.A. direct. 

 

Try this and tell me if you don't hear what I hear.

 

Pull up a Blackface Dbl Normal. no other fx. Play some simple scales on a T Model or Spank. Then turn off the model and use the mags. Play the same clean scales. Grab another guitar if you have one and A/B that guitar against the models. There is something going on with the models that does not happen with magnetic pickups. 

 

Of course I get it that magnetic pickups are going to respond differently than a piezo. But if I am the only one on the planet that hears this distinct difference in tonal quality and everyone else is wondering what the hell it is I'm talking about, then I does me no good to ask my fellow Line 6'ers for help in getting the T Model, for instance, to sound more like a real Tele. In other words, if there are those who hear what I hear (using your own descriptors. I'm calling it "microphonic"), what are some tips/tricks that others have discovered that can make your piezo sound less (descriptor) and closer to the magnetic pickups the Variax is attempting to model.

 

Hopefully that makes sense. 

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I don't have a DT amp so can't comment on that. I go Studio out direct to PA/monitors.

 

I tend to go for classic rock tones, and I generally match my models to the equipment most often used by the classic artists. For instance, I will generally match a Fender guitar (T-model and Spank banks) with a Fender amp model (Blackface, Deluxe, Tweed). I'll use a Gibson guitar (Lester, Special, Semi banks) with a Marshall-like amp model (there are many), and I'll go for the early-British invasion of the 60's with the R-Billy or Chime models and the VOX amps (early Beatles sound).

 

Can't wait to try the Jazzbox JTV models with the pending JC120 HD amp model.

Silver…..I guess it is just me and my ears! ChuckWheat told me I needed to have my hearing checked! I thought he was full of it. Now I'm not so sure! :(

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Tboneus - I haven't tried the comparisons you asked me to make, and I don't think the results would be objective. I have a JTV-59 and a 1970's vintage Les Paul Deluxe. At various times in the past few years I have routinely played the JTV using mag pickups as well as the Lester model and the Les Paul, all using the same patches on a Pod HD500 and HD Pro. While they are all slightly different in tone they are also all remarkably similar. I never noticed anything with the Lester models that was microphonic or hollow as you describe it.

 

I do recall that at one time (before the JTV was released) I used Workbench with a Variax 300 to try to reproduce the sound of my LP Deluxe because that's not one of the Variax models. I used the mini-humbucker pickups available in Workbench, which is what my LP has. With some tweaking I was able to produce a model that sounded so close that I was unable to distinguish the Variax from the LP. I could fool myself into thinking each one was the other.

 

That's what I'm afraid I would do here if I actually did the comparison you ask for. The fact that I haven't noticed what you describe in the last several years suggests to me that I would be fooling myself if I now reported that I heard something new and different.

 

Or maybe my old ears just aren't that good anymore.......

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With some tweaking I was able to produce a model that sounded so close that I was unable to distinguish the Variax from the LP. I could fool myself into thinking each one was the other.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

 

Any chance you can remember what it was that needed tweeting? How did you tweak it? What were you hearing prior to tweaking that made you realize that tweaking was necessary? Maybe somewhere in those answers lies a road I can explore to get my Variax to fool me.

 

As it stands now I can hear right away when I am listening to a model as opposed to magnetic pickups. And just to be clear, chords clean or dirty sound great. Can't tell the difference. But single clean notes is a dead give away.

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I use a JTV-69 and a PRS McCarty.  The McCarty is my main guitar and I use the JTV for songs were I need variations in sounds, especially variations within a song.  For me, I have found that the latest firmware is overly bright.  I remember when it came out that was hailed and compared to taking a blanket off the amp.  However, I find I need to dial down the brightness, which is not easy to do.  Sometimes the Lester model sounds way too hot, and I even have its overall level down quite a bit.  Same with the Spank.

 

Other models like the rockabilly, semi, and jazzbox sound just fine to me.

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I use a JTV-69 and a PRS McCarty.  The McCarty is my main guitar and I use the JTV for songs were I need variations in sounds, especially variations within a song.  For me, I have found that the latest firmware is overly bright.  I remember when it came out that was hailed and compared to taking a blanket off the amp.  However, I find I need to dial down the brightness, which is not easy to do.  Sometimes the Lester model sounds way too hot, and I even have its overall level down quite a bit.  Same with the Spank.

 

Other models like the rockabilly, semi, and jazzbox sound just fine to me.

Thanks for the response.

 

I am surprised that there aren't more folks willing to share their tips/tricks on how they tweak their Variax Models or what guitar model works best with what amp. I figured this would be a time to share success stories all day long. Silly me!

 

You mentioned that you thought the models were too bright. Wanna share how you deal with that? 

For dealing with the hot Lester, have you set the level in the Variax edit?

 

The semi and the spank are awful sounding to me. The only semi I can kind of bare is the Casino. and even that one sounds bad. I have a 335 with P-90's and the model doesn't capture the essence of that guitar at all. I admit I have not tweaked with it much, but out of the box….No Joy!

 

The R-Billys sound pretty good. They are supposed to sound hollow. The Chimes sound good (again, hollow is expected) 

Getting close with the T-Models but I never pair it with the Blackface. Way too bright.  It sounds much better to my ears through the Hiwatt.

 

Oh yeah and I just started to use the cab simulation. I used to turn it off completely cause it sounded horrible to me. But if you turn the cab res and the thump levels all the way down, I get something I can work with.

 

You know what would be cool? A way to turn on and off the Variax within a patch from the HD500.

 

Anyone else? I know there are some cool stuff being done out there.

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Thanks for the response.

 

I am surprised that there aren't more folks willing to share their tips/tricks on how they tweak their Variax Models or what guitar model works best with what amp. I figured this would be a time to share success stories all day long. Silly me!

 

You mentioned that you thought the models were too bright. Wanna share how you deal with that? 

For dealing with the hot Lester, have you set the level in the Variax edit?

 

Yes, I have lowered the Lester models by about 5db.  They are still hotter than my PRS.

 

For the brightness part, I have been slashing treble and presence on the amp models.  With the Lester model , I have pretty much been using the Park 75 Normal amp, a predictable combination.  I add a Tube Drive for more dirt.   I use Lester with the Treadplate and Engl amps as well. 

 

Here's an interesting combination I tried.  One our band's songs called for a twangy, jangly sound, so I thought of the Tele model position 1.  I then went with the AC30 model, Topology III on my DT25.  The result was ***way** too bright.  I switched over to the Plexi Normal amp, which isn't that dirty even with a good amount of drive dialed in.  That paired with the Tele got me the sound I wanted.

 

For the Spank models, I have been using the set someone created on here that was an attempt to emulate firmware 1.9. 

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The strat models into the Fender Twin for the win. This reproduces sounds I hear on a ton of records.

 

-Max

Do you use the factory Strat model or did you tweak it at all? I tell ya, being a Strat guy, the Variax Strat models sound miserable to me and sounds worse through the twin amp model. the BF Double is way to compressed.

I replaced my JTV Pups with Suhr ML Classics. They sound fantastic! So when I go to the model Strat, I can really hear just how short of the mark it is.

 

BTW Max, are you using a DT or are you playing direct?

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You know what would be cool? A way to turn on and off the Variax within a patch from the HD500.

 

try dragging the amp block after the mixer.  Set input 1 to Variax, input 2 to Variax Mags.  Now you have two separate channels feeding the amp.  Place a volume pedal in the Variax channel set to zero and put it on a FS.  With it off, the Variax goes through, turn the volume pedal on, the Variax is muted.  Here is a blank template already made.

 

http://line6.com/customtone/tone/850582/

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Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

 

Any chance you can remember what it was that needed tweeting? How did you tweak it? What were you hearing prior to tweaking that made you realize that tweaking was necessary? Maybe somewhere in those answers lies a road I can explore to get my Variax to fool me.

 

As it stands now I can hear right away when I am listening to a model as opposed to magnetic pickups. And just to be clear, chords clean or dirty sound great. Can't tell the difference. But single clean notes is a dead give away.

Sorry I didn't get back to you on this sooner.

 

I know I was tweaking every parameter that Workbench has to offer. As far as I can remember the most important parameters in shaping the sound were:

- guitar body and pickup selection. These are pretty easy if you're trying to match something real as I was. (Les Paul Deluxe - LP body with mini-humbuckers)

- pickup position; not angle so much

- pickup phase

- tone knob pot resistance and especially capacitance

 

That covers most of the available controls and parameters, so it's probably not much help. Just do a lot of experimenting with everything available.

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Sorry I didn't get back to you on this sooner.

I know I was tweaking every parameter that Workbench has to offer. As far as I can remember the most important parameters in shaping the sound were:

- guitar body and pickup selection. These are pretty easy if you're trying to match something real as I was. (Les Paul Deluxe - LP body with mini-humbuckers)

- pickup position; not angle so much

- pickup phase

- tone knob pot resistance and especially capacitance

That covers most of the available controls and parameters, so it's probably not much help. Just do a lot of experimenting with everything available.

Thanx. No doubt there is a lot to tweak with in work bench. It is a lot of fun. I am getting nowhere with making the spank model sound good though so I am going to abandon it all together. Besides, I have a JTV Strat with the mags that sounds great. As for the "something is just a bit off with the models" issue that I hear, it seems that it is only me who can close his eyes and spot the real Tele for example. I find that hard to believe but I am willing to accept that. But I must ask one more time for ultimate clarity...When you plug in and hit the model switch, all is right in the universe? The Spank model sounds just like a 1959 Strat and the Tele sounds just as a Tele should? There is no odd tonal quality at all that anyone else hears? It's all in my own failing ears? really?

 

I'm not saying that I am unhappy with the models. I use them a lot. It's just that there is an interesting quality to them that does not sound like any magnetic pickuped guitar I've ever played. I only wish I had better more descriptive words for what I hear. C'est la Vie!

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As for the "something is just a bit off with the models" issue that I hear, it seems that it is only me who can close his eyes and spot the real Tele for example. I find that hard to believe but I am willing to accept that. But I must ask one more time for ultimate clarity...When you plug in and hit the model switch, all is right in the universe? The Spank model sounds just like a 1959 Strat and the Tele sounds just as a Tele should? There is no odd tonal quality at all that anyone else hears? It's all in my own failing ears? really?

 

I wish i could answer that...   Wait, no, I am thakful I can't answer that!  I have always been a humbucker guy either in LP models or frankenstrats.  I have never owned a real strat or tele, never played a Gretsch or Ricky. Never owned a banjo or a sitar or a Martin or any reso guitars.  So for me at least, the models are what they are and I don't have to compare them to anything I have actually owned in the past.  Each brings its own flavor to the mix and I can make adjustments till the cows come home and still not say it does or doesn't match anything in my previous experience.  It may be the best way to look at it.  Its a model of the real thing but its not the real thing.  It just does what it does and I am happy to have so many options...

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Its a model of the real thing but its not the real thing.  It just does what it does and I am happy to have so many options...

Yep! I agree. I guess what I was looking for was something like this…."Yeah T. I do hear a bit of difference between the piezo stuff and magnetic pickups. I wouldn't call it "hollow" though. To me it sounds (insert descriptor). This is what I do as a fix for this and I think it works really well." Some did offer a bit of help. I was hoping for a more robust conversation about the various findings that we have discovered in our hours of tweaking. 

 

Oh well. like you said. "It does what it does"

 

Thanx for the patch! It works really well!

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Yep! I agree. I guess what I was looking for was something like this…."Yeah T. I do hear a bit of difference between the piezo stuff and magnetic pickups. I wouldn't call it "hollow" though. To me it sounds (insert descriptor). This is what I do as a fix for this and I think it works really well."

 

aha... That's a different question than does it sound like the original.  Definitely a difference between the mags and the models.  The mags have more "life" to them, sort of airy, that the models don't and I haven't really tried to replicate it.  I actually like the models better the way they are for a lot of stuff. 

 

Glad the patch works.

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aha... That's a different question than does it sound like the original.  Definitely a difference between the mags and the models.  The mags have more "life" to them, sort of airy, that the models don't and I haven't really tried to replicate it.  I actually like the models better the way they are for a lot of stuff. 

 

Glad the patch works.

My original question never had anything to do with "does it sound like the original." My question is about an odd tonality issue that the models across the board have. Something that I labeled "hollow" even "microphonic". So when I said I could spot the real Tele with my eyes closed, I was referring to this, hard for me to define, sonic property that all the models have. Not "this doesn't sound like a real Tele to me".

 

All the Variax models sound pretty darn close to the guitars it is modeling. Save for this mystery quality that I hear. You say they are missing "life". I call it hollow. I think we may be talking about the same thing here. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

I too enjoy the models and the variety they afford. But man, there is this delicate instrumental that I play. All clean tones. Beautiful melody. But the model just doesn't cut it like my real Tele does. The two of them sound a lot alike when I'm strumming chords but when you are playing melody lines it falls a bit short.

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This is a bit of a tangent to your original post, but here goes - and I know you have two DT's so this is totally something that you can try (or maybe already have).

 

Setup the HD500 with dual inputs; split into two amp models. Use variax mags for one, variax models for the other. Make both amp models the same to start with, with basically equivalent settings. The mags tend to be a touch louder than the models, you can adjust that to balance with either the amp level or the mixer level. I had a lot of fun tweaking on the Hiwatt to start with.

 

I set it up to use the FS1-8 mode, where all FS switches are active, instead of the front row being patch change A-D.

 

I use FS 5-6 for the first amp channel FX - comp and drive, and FS7-8 for the second amp channel FX - same comp and drive, but preserving the split inputs, by dragging all effects to the two individual amp model channels.

 

Then I added two wahs, as first in each amp model chain. Set the wahs to both use the outboard EXP pedal, but assigned FS2-3 to control the two wah's on/off. I like the parallell wah sounds, really cool.

 

Added the stereo FX loop to on/off with FS1, placed after the amp channel mixer; panned both amp channels hard left / right. Routed in stereo through outboard Zoom effect pedal for chorus, delay, stereo noise gate - basically, to offload additional stereo post amp model effects. Last put a ping pong delay. I set the mix rate from 0-around 50, to control with the onboard EXP pedal, FS 4. 

 

So, getting back to your original topic, this basically preserved the split from mags to models to each DT amp, and makes balancing the levels relatively easy. The slight chorus / stereo effect comes from the mags and models being ever so slightly different, and the amp model setting being slightly different.

 

Obviously the stereo feel would be more exaggerated if you used two very different amp models. I have also found this is a decent way to have acoustic guitar models in tandem with the mags / electric tones.

 

Depending on how you end up wanting to use this kind of routing, a person might choose to only use wah on one of the two channels, and that would leave an extra two effects, which could be reverbs in each amp channel, or more stereo effects, or other pre-amp model effects. In general, while I liked the both-on dual wahs, I could probably do with just one, since I ended up preferring it in "parallel" sound mode anyway.

 

That would also free up other FS assignments, since you could make the wah go on/off with the toe switch instead of an FS assignment.

 

You can also still get a volume pedal in there, I would guess, by assigning the volume of the FX loop send to one of the EXP pedals; maybe the onboard pedal>? That would probably wreak havoc if you left that assigned to control volume and also used it to control delay mix; but the delay can be dialed in well enough on a per-patch basis anyway, and if one really needs to control it, maybe use the Variax tone or volume knob as an additional controller.

 

Lots of options... Too many. To a certain extent, that's what is appealing about this routing, because it removes certain options, and simplifies choices.

 

It also sounds freaking awesome...

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