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Setups And Scenes


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#1 Digital-sound

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:27 AM

Hi,

I am asking for some clarification on the difference between "setup" and "scene". I have read the manual, but they seem to overlap if I am correct in my understanding.

The Setup: current configuration of all inputs and outputs
FX and channel settings
channel levels
mutes and pans
monitor levels
foot-switch assignments
stage icon layout (onstage gear)

The Scene: settings for processor and FX parameters
channel levels
mute, solo, pan position
monitor send levels

So to be clear, and how I use it, the "Setup" loads the band I am playing with (we have three guitarists we use depending who is available...one doesn't sing, two do, so it is great for this to load up with presets tweaked to their voices, or, no mic when the one who doesn't sing is with us). That part, I completely expect of a saved "setup". But that is almost where I would expect it to stop. The "scene" I would think is what would be more "room" dependant. Same band, different room, and therefore different monitor tweaks and levels, and different channel levels and probably FX levels. But the levels are included in the "setup" as well. Do they load in with the "setup", and then change when the "scene" is loaded? I guess the short question is: Where there are duplicates saved by both "setup", and "scene", does the "scene" override the "setup"? If i tweak my monitors, and save it in the "setup", and then retweak and save in a "scene", will the "setup" be the "default", and the "scene" will then override the "default"?

How is my understanding of this? assuming you understand what i am trying to understand! have not had the time to play with this on my own. I will, but always good help on the forum!
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#2 litesnsirens

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 12:42 PM

I think you are just a little off in your interpretation of what the scene is and does. There are a bunch of scenes loaded into the M20D and you can tweak and save them or start from scratch.  They are in fact a single channel setup.  So for instance when you look at the strip along the bottom and you are dragging a "male vocal" from the strip onto the virtual stage you have just dragged a "scene" onto the stage.  So for instance you tweak it a little bit so that it sounds good with "Dave's" mic and "Dave's" voice and you get the reverb and delay settings just the way "Dave" likes them you can then tap on the scene at the top and "Save As" "Dave's vocal mic".  Then if you are ever creating a new setup for a band in which "Dave" is going to be singing, you can just go in and load up the scene "Dave's vocal mic".  So the "Scene" is an individual input and the "Setup" is just as you figured it's all the scenes that you have loaded as well as all the other parameters that aren't necessarily covered in a scene.  The nice thing is, if you have saved your setup but didn't save individual scenes within that setup, you could go back load up the setup and then if there is a particular scene that you would like to use for another setup you can save that scene from within the setup at any time.

 

As far as what overrides what, now that you have an understanding of what a scene is, you can see that it will really come down what order you do things in because both scenes and setups can be modified.  If you create a new scene and don't save it, then load up a new setup, you will lose your scene.  And conversely if you are building a new setup that you haven't saved yet, and have tweaked a vocal mic and then load up a scene onto the channel where that vocal mic is, you will lose the tweaking that you have done.  So the bottom line is if you are building a new setup and are going to load a new scene, save the setup before you load the scene.  If you are working on a scene, save it before loading a setup.  If you use that practice you will never lose anything that you have been working on.  It may take you a bit to find one or the other once you have saved them but you can be sure they will be in there somewhere.


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#3 ArneLine6

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:11 PM

Ok, to clarify this:

 

These are three different things. What Litesnsirens is referring to are channel presets. These can be loaded and saved in tweak view. When you select the folder icon next to the meter.

Scenes are meant to be recalled during performances and recall everything except the input parameters like input patch and trim. Scenes are recalled and saved from Performance mode.

And there are Setups. Setups store everything including the input parameters. Setups are saved and loaded from Setup mode.


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#4 silverhead

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:25 PM

I think of the three things this way, in terms of performance rather than technicals:

- a Setup defines the band/group of performers and their instruments. This corresponds to physical inputs.

- a Scene refers to the full set of FX and parameter settings for each group member (physical input) at different times during the performance - another metaphor would be a 'Song'. In other words, as the band plays different songs during the performance the band members as a group can change their settings for different songs. The instantaneous 'snapshot' of all settings for a song is the Scene - it is a specific instance of settings within the Setup.

- a Channel Preset (the strip of presets along the bottom of the display in Setup view) defines a specific set of FX and parameters that are assigned to a single physical Channel Input at any point in time

 

So a preset defines a single setting for a single instrument/mic. A Scene is a named set of settings for all current physical inputs. A Setup is a named specification of the physical inputs. A Setup can contain many Scenes.  A Scene can contain many Presets. A Preset contains a set of FX and their parameters.


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#5 Digital-sound

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:18 PM

So I think I understand it correctly. But the manual says the setup saves channel levels and effects. But the scene also saves these. In any case, I am using it correctly. I save a setup for each band, and I save a scene for each room the band plays in. We don't need to change from song to song, but settings change a bit from room to room. So rooms don't need as much reverb, or might need slightly different monitor eq depending on what is behind us.

When we arrive and set up, I load the setup for the band I am playing with. Once sound check is done, I save it as a scene and name it after the room we are in, and the band. Next time back to that room, with that band, I load the setup, and then I load the scene.

Make sense?

EDIT-and yes, channel presets are all saved for each instrument and voice in our group already. Which are then part of the setup I load, which is further tweaked when I load the scene for the room we are in. If I have one saved.
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#6 jeanpicasso

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:22 PM

just remember to save your scene, and then save your setup where you scene is in, right after. I messed up a whole days work cause of this little detail :unsure:


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#7 pd4251

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:05 AM

I have the m20d, an L3t, an L3m and an L3s and am preparing to use them next week with a 4 piece group for the first time.  My question is, -- Our sax man also plays flute with the same microphone can I drag a second mic for the flute next to the sax mic and set up two scenes where the inputs are switched so as to have the correct channel settings for each instrument?  Thank you for your consideration.


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#8 ArneLine6

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:56 PM

You could use an XLR Y- Split cable and plug it in to two inputs. In one scene you mute the sax channel in the next scene you mute the flute channel. The y- split cable needs to be a female xlr into two male xlr's.


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#9 silverhead

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:04 PM

Just to be clear......... Arne's solution means you don't need a second mic. The sax/flute player uses the same mic - the Y-split allows you to use two distinct M20d input channels for it, and control the channel muting via 'scenes' as you suggest.


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#10 jaminjimlp

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:58 PM

Or with out a cable, setup 2 inputs with the sax mans mic 1 for flute and 1 for sax then do this to swap back and forth,

 

I/O Reassignment

On occassion you may find that you need to reassign an instrument to a different input, or a stage
monitor to a different output. Suppose you have ideal channel settings for Input 1 prior to connecting
any microphones or instruments to the M20d, and it happens that the instrument intended for Input
1 has been connected to Input 4. You may be inclined to swap the physical connections of inputs
1 and 4, but that may prove to be impractical in a critical live performance scenario.
In a situation like this the M20d provides I/O Reassignment, using the touchscreen UI. This feature
is also accessible remotely using the free StageScape Remote app for iPad®.
To reassign jacks in Setup Mode using the virtual I/O Panel, follow these steps:
1. Select the Stage Icon for the input assignment you wish to reassign.
2. Tap the I/O Panel in the Main Toolbar to zoom in on it.
3. The selected Stage Icon’s current input jack will be highlighted.
4. Tap the input jack to which you wish to assign the selected Stage Icon.
5. The selected Stage Icon’s input jack is now the jack you tapped in Step 4.
Note: only presets with the 1/4” badge can be swapped or assigned to Inputs 13-16.
Tip: If you tap an input jack to which another channel is already assigned, the inputs of that
channel and the currently selected channel will be swapped.
Tip: You can also reassign outputs for Monitors A-D using this operation.

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#11 pd4251

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:49 AM

I thankyou so much for the help - tell you what I did.   (even had trouble and frustration doing this until I read above that - "be sure to save the setup after saving the scenes othewise they're gone when changing setups"  -  I saved the setup with the sax and saved it as the sax scene.  After loading a flute, I photoed each page in the tweak and deep tweak sections with the i-pad, reloaded the setup for the band, selected the sax and went through all the pages of the tweak and deep tweak resetting all the parameters to those of the flute from my i-pad pictures and saved the scene as flute and finally saved the setup.  I think I'm golden now.  


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#12 gordwait

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 03:08 PM

I was going to say, sounds like a job for a scene change.

 

I've never heard of a Y cable for a mic, I would assume the double loading of having one mic feed two inputs might cause some loss of quality.. especially if the input impedance is 600 ohms..


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#13 ArneLine6

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:51 PM

Theoretically yes. It depends on the microphone. With a dynamic microphone like an SM58 the only effect is a bit less level. In a setup with a separate FoH and Monitor mixer this is very common. The splitter sometimes has transformers sometimes it does not.
From the Shure website:

"Splitting the signal from a microphone and sending it to two mixers should not have any effect on the frequency response of the microphone. The only effect is a few dB of signal loss, which can easily be made up with the mixer's gain control. The only potential problem is if both mixers have phantom power turned on. Normally. phantom power will not affect a dynamic microphone. However, the mixers may not like to see phantom power at their inputs, which could happen when a microphone is split between two mixers. The solution in this case would be to turn off phantom power, or use a transfomer isolated splitter to split the microphone signal. "
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