Shiva magic!

[grandinq]

I got the new model packs for my HD500/DT25/JTV59 setup.  I was eager to try out the Shiva amp, as it was much hyped.

 

First impression...meh.  It sounded muffled, like it was in a closet.  Big letdown.  The 5150 wasn't doing it for me either, and this morning I was thinking of returning the whole thing. 

 

Then as I played around, I tried the Shiva on Topology III...wow, what a difference!  Now it has a great crunchy bite to it (am I talking about a guitar tone or food?) I have always coveted that Aerosmith Sweet Emotion tone, and this sounds pretty darn close.

 

It was worth hanging in and doing that extra tweak.  You never know.  Usually Top III sounds too bright to my ears, but it really worked with this amp.

 

 

[Brazzy]

I got the new model packs for my HD500/DT25/JTV59 setup.  I was eager to try out the Shiva amp, as it was much hyped.

 

First impression...meh.  It sounded muffled, like it was in a closet.  Big letdown.  The 5150 wasn't doing it for me either, and this morning I was thinking of returning the whole thing. 

 

Then as I played around, I tried the Shiva on Topology III...wow, what a difference!  Now it has a great crunchy bite to it (am I talking about a guitar tone or food?) I have always coveted that Aerosmith Sweet Emotion tone, and this sounds pretty darn close.

 

It was worth hanging in and doing that extra tweak.  You never know.  Usually Top III sounds too bright to my ears, but it really worked with this amp.

 

Cool, glad to hear something positive since I see at least one who wants to return the model pack.

 

I've noticed something with modeling and that it is....."It's never straight forward". I always need to try different settings and combinations before I can really make a decision on the tone. I wish I could just plug it in and go but not the case many times. There are those times though that the pod models just work off the cuff. If I just plug straight into the front of the DT with my guitar it takes only seconds to get a good inspiring tone.

 

Don't take this the wrong way 'cause I really like this technology and use almost every day.

[silverhead]

Before returning it I would experiment with the Master Amp DEP parameter. I've heard that some people find the default value too high. Try reducing it.

[ColonelForbin]

And change the cab!! I didn't like how it sounded with the 2x12 that it defaults to. Lately my alt cab go to has been the Hiwatt 4x12. That same Hiwatt option worked well for the new JCM800 and the 5150; didn't like the stock cabs in either of those.

[grandinq]

And change the cab!! I didn't like how it sounded with the 2x12 that it defaults to. Lately my alt cab go to has been the Hiwatt 4x12. That same Hiwatt option worked well for the new JCM800 and the 5150; didn't like the stock cabs in either of those.

I changed Shiva to the Hiwatt as well as Top III. I got that tip from you -- thanks!

 

I am somewhat surprised that the old XT amps sound okay through the DT. I have only tried Insane and Variac, but they are working for me. I would have thought that being full models they wouldn't work as well.

 

The 2204 is still not working for me, but right now I am too busy jamming to the Shiva to care.

[Tboneous]

I got the new model packs for my HD500/DT25/JTV59 setup.  I was eager to try out the Shiva amp, as it was much hyped.

 

First impression...meh.  It sounded muffled, like it was in a closet.  Big letdown.  The 5150 wasn't doing it for me either, and this morning I was thinking of returning the whole thing. 

 

Then as I played around, I tried the Shiva on Topology III...wow, what a difference!  Now it has a great crunchy bite to it (am I talking about a guitar tone or food?) I have always coveted that Aerosmith Sweet Emotion tone, and this sounds pretty darn close.

 

It was worth hanging in and doing that extra tweak.  You never know.  Usually Top III sounds too bright to my ears, but it really worked with this amp.

Good for you my man! Curious... How does Line 6 determine the base line for its models? So many of the models sound as if they are under thick blankets when you first down load them. I can imagine that Line 6 hears these muffled models and says "Wooo-Hooo! That sounds GREAT! Release that new model!" 

 

Why do some of them need so much tweaking to sound usable? Not all the models fall into this trap, but far too many do. What's the philosophy behind the boomy, bass laden, muffled models?

[grandinq]

Good for you my man! Curious... How does Line 6 determine the base line for its models? So many of the models sound as if they are under thick blankets when you first down load them. I can imagine that Line 6 hears these muffled models and says "Wooo-Hooo! That sounds GREAT! Release that new model!"

 

Why do some of them need so much tweaking to sound usable? Not all the models fall into this trap, but far too many do. What's the philosophy behind the boomy, bass laden, muffled models?

I hear ya! I always thought it was just me who thought that. I remember getting GearBox years ago with its dozens of amp models and going through most of the defaults and thinking they were muffled, mushy crud. Especially anything Marshall. When I think of bands in the 1970s and 1980s that used Marshalls, they sound nothing like the Line6 default values.

 

By the way: a day later and I have come down a little from my Shiva high. I still like it, but it will need some more tweaking. Sigh....

[Brazzy]

I hear ya! I always thought it was just me who thought that. I remember getting GearBox years ago with its dozens of amp models and going through most of the defaults and thinking they were muffled, mushy crud. Especially anything Marshall. When I think of bands in the 1970s and 1980s that used Marshalls, they sound nothing like the Line6 default values.

 

By the way: a day later and I have come down a little from my Shiva high. I still like it, but it will need some more tweaking. Sigh..

You not alone when it comes to wondering why the models are the way they are. Although I've messed with all the amps in GearBox since 2008, still use them and can get them to sound pretty darn good. I can tell you I will go to a post EQ in the DAW to get things tuned up before recording digitally. When I go into a real amp with a modeler I use a post EQ in the device if it has one, if it doesn't I use an external EQ. That is if I feel I need it. Sometimes I use the EHX Tube EQ last in the chain with good results. I've found that tweaking is a must with sound and learning how to tweak proficiently is mandatory, IMO. This way whatever device you pick up it's not a mystery to you and you'll know pretty well what direction you'll want to go in.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Brazzy

[Tboneous]

No doubt that there are many creative ways to get these models sounding good. I have had success in making them sound fantastic for what I do. But could someone in the know please explain the thought process behind the default settings of these models? Are you guys at line 6 slapping each other high 5's while shouting "Nailed It!" on the muffled models?

 

The silence from Line 6 on questions like this one is truly deafening! I'm not a hater! Just asking what I feel is a reasonable question.

[edstar1960]

No doubt that there are many creative ways to get these models sounding good. I have had success in making them sound fantastic for what I do. But could someone in the know please explain the thought process behind the default settings of these models? Are you guys at line 6 slapping each other high 5's while shouting "Nailed It!" on the muffled models?

 

The silence from Line 6 on questions like this one is truly deafening! I'm not a hater! Just asking what I feel is a reasonable question.

 

I think the simple answer is the same reason that our own patches sound different when we play them through different set ups at different volumes.  None of us are playing the demo patches back in exactly the same scenario as when they were created - we are using different guitars, equipment and we are different players.

 

It would be nice to know though, exactly what setups were used for the creation of each demo patch.  What guitar was used, how was the patch monitored - headphones, studio monitors, FRFR PA system, power amp with 4x12 or 2x12 or a combo amp - did they go direct into a desk or a DAW - what was the output mode that was used when the patch was created, what volume was it played at, etc, etc.

 

Not sure if they will even still have all this info for their demo patches or whether all their demo's were created in the same environment with the same guitar and gear by the same person.   But if we knew that they were all created with output mode STUDIO/DIRECT in a professional studio environment with quality amp and studio monitors then at least we would know in which environment they should sound as intended, and then we can make adjustments accordingly for the environments we actually use them in.

[Tboneous]

That makes sense. How hard would it be for someone from Line 6 to break that down for its customers? "The models were created this way using this setup with these guitars in this monitoring environment."

 

In any event, I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect when I plug in my JTV69 via VDI into my HD500 and into my DT50, DT25 and L2m via L6 link, that I am going to be in the tonal ballpark. I mean I should be somewhat WOW'ed right out of the box. It is called "The Dream Rig" right? My Dream Girl, my Dream Car and my Dream house doesn't need a whole lot of tweaking! :P

 

I can get to WOW but, at times, it takes a lot of tweaking to remove the muffle or tame the ear piercing, highly compressed, high frequency stuff. 

 

I can get there. I think I've got the formula. It took a while, but I've learned the idiosyncrasies of this junk enough to be able to quickly pull up a workable tone.

 

In 2012, the good folks of Line 6 in a youtube video entitled "Dream Rig Tip #1: Layering Wet and Dry Tones" asserted that "This is the first in what will undoubtedly become a series of tips and trick videos on the Dream Rig; How to use it, what it does and some of the neat stuff you can do when you connect a JTV a Pod HD500 and either a DT25 or a DT50 amp."

 

They made it to "Dream Rig Tip #2" :huh:  

 

That is not a series....that's not even a few...that's just a couple.

 

I'm certain that the rest of the series is scheduled for eminent release and in this series, they will explain the methodology of modeling and how to get the most bang out of our Dream Rig money!

 

And furthermore, I feel......wait....what?......there is a rumor that Line 6 is discontinuing the DT series amps?  :wacko:

 

Well, that's just a rumor, right?

[edstar1960]

That makes sense. How hard would it be for someone from Line 6 to break that down for its customers? "The models were created this way using this setup with these guitars in this monitoring environment."

 

In any event, I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect when I plug in my JTV69 via VDI into my HD500 and into my DT50, DT25 and L2m via L6 link, that I am going to be in the tonal ballpark. I mean I should be somewhat WOW'ed right out of the box. It is called "The Dream Rig" right? My Dream Girl, my Dream Car and my Dream house doesn't need a whole lot of tweaking! :P

 

I can get to WOW but, at times, it takes a lot of tweaking to remove the muffle or tame the ear piercing, highly compressed, high frequency stuff. 

 

I can get there. I think I've got the formula. It took a while, but I've learned the idiosyncrasies of this junk enough to be able to quickly pull up a workable tone.

 

In 2012, the good folks of Line 6 in a youtube video entitled "Dream Rig Tip #1: Layering Wet and Dry Tones" asserted that "This is the first in what will undoubtedly become a series of tips and trick videos on the Dream Rig; How to use it, what it does and some of the neat stuff you can do when you connect a JTV a Pod HD500 and either a DT25 or a DT50 amp."

 

They made it to "Dream Rig Tip #2" :huh:  

 

That is not a series....that's not even a few...that's just a couple.

 

.........

 

I think they have long since lost their notes on who/how/what made their original demo tones but they may have their notes for the most recent VARIAX SET LIST that came out with the latest fw - perhaps they could at least share that with us?

 

I agree with you that it's not unreasonable to assume that the Dream Rig will provide WOW tones right after connecting together and switching on.    If only that was the reality!   Yes - we can all get there - but it takes time and effort and knowledge.  I have had the full set up for years now and still don't get it right - but I am inching ever closer to knowing what to do to get a great sound - but there are so many variables that can come into play that the great tone I am working on can easily turn into woolly mush or ear piercing scratchy ice pick from hell.   I certainly find dialling in the sweet warm tone so many great tube amp players have really tricky - I can get close - but I end up with it being too woolly with too much bass or too scratchy, harsh with too much treble and then I flip flop between the two trying to just hit that sweet spot in between but never quite getting there!   I certainly wish it was easier!

 

It is a shame they didn't continue with the dream rig hints and tips but thank goodness for all the great and generous forum users who share their knowledge with everyone to help us get to the WOW sound.