hd500 + L2t, sounds different every time

[giallanon]

So, i'm running the hd500x with an L2t through L6Link and looking for some sort of power metal distortion, like stratovarius, edguy, sonata arctica.

To be clear, I don't think this is a fault of hd500 or L2t, I just need an hand to solve an issue....

 

Point is that, depending on how/where I place the L2t (standing still or on its side as a floor monitor), the sound greatly change.

Also if I put it over a chair, or even higher, the sound change again in another way (more trebly I would say).

I know it's probably due to the floor acting as a sort of resonator for basses (and the room also influence the sound), but the problem is that I can't find a sound that will sound good at home AND in rehearsal room.

Changing rehearsal room will (again) drastically change the sound I hear.

Last week I was in a rehearsal room and the sound was just good, very close to what I hear at home, even better due to higher volume I guess. Yesterday I went to a different rehearsal room, and it was ugly (same patch, same guitar, same hands...).

I mean, ugly.... not "not very good" or "not as good as last week", but ugly, fizzy and boomy at the same time (removing reverb helped a bit).

 

I don't pretend to hear always exactly the same sound, but how can the sound change so drastically, from very good to ugly? How am I suppose to find a good tone if the room, the speaker position, the weather, the whatever is influencing the sound soo much?

Also, If for some mystical combinations of whatever, it happens that I hear a good sound, how can I be sure that people are also hearing the same (or similar) sound? My guess is that when I hear a good tone, people 5 or 6 mt away are hearing something very different.

 

How do you guys handle this?

Also, how/where do you place your L2t? I find that the "floor monitor with 60°" is the best but, again, it depends on so many factors...

 

 

 

[pianoguyy]

It is absolutely normal for all of what you described. 

 

And yes, what sounds good to you where you are standing may sound like balls where someone else is standing. 

 

 

 

How do I fix it? 

Design patches under the same scenario. ALWAYS. 

- Same room. Same amp. Same guitar. Same positioning. Same EVERYTHING. 

 

Anything after the design of my patch is up to the sound man to take care of. 

Believe it or not, that's the H2G truth. PA systems fill the room, your amp does not. PA systems handle everyone's sound, which means they can EQ everyone based on the room acoustics. 

 

 

It sounds overly simplistic, and that is because it is. 

Turn on your amp. Play something. Sit on the floor. Play something. Walk to the side of your amp. Play something. 

They all sound different. 

[maxnew40]

Go and buy a speaker stand and put the L2 on the stand. That way it will always be at the same point in relation to your head.

Read the speaker manual and understand that the speaker changes how it outputs sound depending on how it places (ie, floor monitor, upright on the floor, and on a pole).

 

-Max

[giallanon]

Thank you both.

 

@piano: having to create a new patch from scratch every time I change room, rehearsal, stage, seems a bit overkill giving the time I spent to create the tone I like.. on the other hand, I don't see another solution, sigh

 

@max: yes, I'm going to buy a pole tomorrow to see if this will help me create a tone that sounds at least acceptable more or less everywhere. Some tweaks will always be necessary, but having a nice starting sound will help.

 

I wonder how others are using the L2t live, always mounted on a pole?

[edstar1960]

If you are going to use it as your main amp and back line then put it on a speaker pole and use it like that when creating patches.

If you are going to use it as just a monitor to hear yourself and allow the FOH PA take care of your main sound, then put it on the floor with the handle as a tilt back in the monitor position and use it like that to create your patches.

 

I would avoid using it standing vertically on the floor because the bass response will vary dramatically depending on what type of floor or stage it is sitting on.

 

Hope that helps.

[giallanon]

Yes, the floor is something to avoid, it's too random :)

Since I'm using it as my main amp, I'll try with the pole and see what happens, Thank you

[pianoguyy]

@piano: having to create a new patch from scratch every time I change room, rehearsal, stage, seems a bit overkill giving the time I spent to create the tone I like.. on the other hand, I don't see another solution, sigh

 

 

I wonder how others are using the L2t live, always mounted on a pole?

 

 

That is not at all what I said. 

Let's try it a different way... 

 

You need constants in your life. 

Pick a space. Let's say, your bedroom. 

Put your amp somewhere. Let's say, a corner. 

Pick a guitar. 

Put yourself somewhere in the room.

Design a patch. 

 

BUT, that combination is where you will always design your patches. Once you decide what combination you want to use, that is your 'sweet spot'. It is your 'create spot'.

Never create on stage. Never create in the bathroom. Never use a different guitar. Never stand somewhere else. Only create in your 'create spot'. 

 

Editing too. It is going to sound different if you go somewhere else, so do not edit - unless you are editing them all based on your new environment. 

 

 

Eventually, you will find little nuances that can be used everywhere. 

Like, if you make patches in your 'create space', but find that they do not have enough bass in the rest of the world, you can start to add that much bass to all of your patches. OR, use the GEQ at home to remove bass, so that you have to add bass in your patches to bring it back to 0 (and turn off GEQ when not in the house). 

[giallanon]

@piano: I understand what you say. Problem is that I already create patches in my create-room (also trying to use a live volume as much as I can), but the same patch and guitar sounds very different from rehearsal to rehearsal. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not. If I play twice in the same rehearsal, I get the same sound (even good or bad, but at least the same), so the "problem" is the room and the floor. Expecially the floor I guess. I'm gonna try with a pole, so to remove from the equation at least the damn floor. I will create new patch in my room using the pole and see how it sounds in rehearsal. Thank you again for your answers

[maxnew40]

_{Another plus on using the pole speaker stand is that it pretty much gets rids of any coupling effect with the floor. You will really appreciate this if you end up playing on a raised hollow stage that will cause all kinds of weird resonant frequency issues if the speaker is set on right the stage.}

 

_-Max

[dbagchee]

The only way to eliminate those changes is to go to in-ear monitoring. Otherwise it's always a compromise. The pole idea is a good one and try to notice the best placement where you are minimizing reflections off walls etc.

[giallanon]

 

Yesterday I went to a local shop to buy a pole for the L2t, but they didn't have any.

So I opted for an amp stand, but it was too short for my taste and I had the impression that the sound would hit my knee...

After some brainstorming, I bought a keyboard stand (not sure it's called like this, but you can see it from the picture).

 

Short version: 

it sounds very good and consistent, both at home and in rehearsal (tested in 2 different rehearsal room).

 

Long version:

Using a pole or a stand to raise the L2t was indeed a good idea (thank you). Getting rid of the floor helps a lot in keeping the sound consistent, no matter where you play. I would say that the keyboard stand solved 80% of the problems I was facing because now, what I hear at home is quite similar to what I hear in rehearsal.

As a plus, having a keyboard stand with the L2t on top, both behind me, feels (and looks) like having a real amp head, just without the cab, and it's waaaay more metal than having the speaker mounted on a pole eheheh.

As you can see from the picture, after some experiments, I decided to put the L2T with the L6 logo pointing up to the roof. I'm not sure why, but this settings helps keeping the sound less fizzing and more smooth.

I positioned the L2t at about 1 meter from the floor and, moving around the room, I can feel little changes in the percevied sound, depending on the distance from the speaker and the angle of the listener, but it's not something to worry about. The main sound remains the same even at about 5 meters from the speaker, sitting on the drumer chair.

So I guess that with this configuration, the audience and the rest of the band will hear almost what I hear.

 

I said that the stand solved 80% of the problems, because some adjustments are still required depending on the room, but this is something you can handle in 5/10 minutes and with minor tweaks.

First af all you've to tune you reverb/delay settings. Every room has it's own natural reverb, so depending on where're you playing, you'll have to turn the reverb up/down, but this is just a matter of setting the reverb mix parameter up/down, which is a very quick operation.

Generally I don't use any reverb at all, but yesterday I was in a room so dry that I had to add a touch of reverb. On the other side, the 2nd room I've tested had a more natural reverb so I had to turn my reverb off.

The same goes with the delay (if any).

 

Finally I found a "trick" to let the sound become rich and powerfull almost like a real tube amp. Maybe you're aware of this, but just in case you aren't, try adding a tube compressor AFTER the amp (actually mine was the very last effect of the chain), with an output level around 8/16 and compression from 70% to 100%.

It really added something to the tone, which now feels alive.

 

[Rewolf48]

The other option for isolation would be "isolation pads" as used for speakers everywhere especial studios and audiophiles.  It just lift the speaker off the floor and isolates it; something like this:

 

http://www.foambymail.com/MIW/monitor-isolation-wedge.html

 

Or the old favourite a layer or two of carpet cut to size

 

Also called a platform when used for guitar cabs - this video gives you some idea of the effect (and other cheap idea):

 

http://pickroar.com/953/home-depot-amp-riser/

[stumblinman]

Doesn't the l2t have an accelerometer in it that automatically changes eq settings based on position? Monitor mode, speaker stand mode and traditional mode? I could swear I read something about that. There's a pole mount sensor inside as well. I know the l2m has it...

[giallanon]

Yes it has a sensor but you can override it using the hd500. I always use it in reference mode, never in monitor or guitar mode. Anyway, even in monitor mode, the floor is drastically affecting the sound

[aerosol_d7]

You should use global eq to correct those nuances....or not enough?

[giallanon]

GEQ does not work when connecting throught L6Link

[dbagchee]

Glad you found a solution that is working for you. Keep in mind though that if you play somewhere with higher ceilings (or outdoor!) pointing it up may not be the best solution. It probably sounds smoother because you aren't getting as much high end frequencies right at your ears this way but it might be good to dial that out in your patches.

[aerosol_d7]

You re right, I'm not sure but it seems there is an eq for l3t, not in l2t?

[arislaf]

You re right, I'm not sure but it seems there is an eq for l3t, not in l2t?

Only for the l3t. ;)

[edstar1960]

Maybe I am missing something here, I don't own the T model Stagesource speaker, but from product description on l6 website it says both l2t and l3t feature a 3 band EQ ..... Does the onboard EQ only work for the inputs on the Stagesource unit? So they don't affect the digital input coming through the l6 link connection? I know the hd500 global EQ does not affect the l6 link output, so do the EQ controls on the Stagesource t units also not affect the l6 link input signal?

[giallanon]

Edstar is right, eq does not work when you use L6link

[edstar1960]

Edstar is right, eq does not work when you use L6link

Wow.

I understand why Global EQ could not be made available for L6 link output options within HD500/HD500X units - it was a user requested feature added well into product life cycle and the design architecture and DSP considerations ruled it out. However, I don't understand why the l2t and l3t Stagesource speakers designed with on board 3 band EQ for inputs would not also allow that EQ to be used on the L6 link input audio. Surely at the very least it should have been a switchable option to make use of the on board mixer and EQ for l6 link input audio. Perhaps they thought that l6 link input audio would always be EQ'd on the source device so would not need to be EQ'd on the Stagesource speaker but completely overlooked the need for global EQ adjustment for different venues and the benefit of offloading DSP used for EQ to the Stagesource speaker?

 

So dream rig users have to choose between l6 link digital audio quality, Stagesource mode functions and routing OR global EQ using the XLR or 1/4 inch outputs on HD500/HD500X and XLR or 1/4 inch inputs on Stagesource l2t/l3t.

[giallanon]

TBH, there's another problem with L6Link. You can't eq even if you have a separate eq pedal or board, just because you can't plug the L6link into an eq pedal and the pedal to the L6Link on L2T.

I have to use a FXloop block inside every patch in order to eq my sound so to have a quick and dirt fix for eq-ing the sound depending on the venue, without having to go throught all the pacthes and edit one by one.

 

I could use XLR out instead of L6link in order to have all the benefit of eq-ing, but the quality of sound is so much better with L6Link that I stick with it

[edstar1960]

I understand your situation, although I only have the l2m.

 

The L6 link digital audio provides a much louder signal, than the 1/4inch outs, and they in turn provide a louder signal than the XLR outs which are only mic level.   I think both the XLR and 1/4 inch outs are designed to go via a mixing desk where the signal can be boosted by the channel trim control or direct to an instrument in or fx return of an amp.  I get much more volume out of my l2m with the l6 link, it's just disappointing that the only way to use a global EQ with it is to use the FX loop and lose an fx block.  

[aerosol_d7]

Pro vs cons, or maybe that accelerometer/sensor should be used.....otherwise bad designed?

[stumblinman]

It's there to account for position. Might be worth testing.