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First Run Of Xd-v75 - Getting Distortion. Please Advise.

distortion hiss modulation xd-v75

Best Answer RonMarton , 12 July 2013 - 09:05 PM

In considering what I'm about to say, tangierc...

It may be handy for you to know that I'm a professional TV Sound Supervisor/Audio Director with over forty years of experience, travelling the world covering live (or "as live") events for audiences who are both at those events and listening "at home".

That being said, as part of training some younger members of my team, they and I have spent some time listening vary carefully to both of your (truly excellent) samples via monitoring that is truly "state of the art", (Focal monitors and Sennheiser HD25 headsets) with the result that we can unequivocally settle one of your queries...

(Drum roll. please...)

The adapter cables you are using to connect both of your mics to the XD-V75 beltpack are definitely, absolutely, certainly and beyond any doubt correctly wired.

(Tish-boom !) :)

Now to the trickier stuff.

...I got the same distortion sounds and hiss behind the voice that modulated up and down...

It'll probably surprise you to hear that there's not a lot wrong with either of your samples.

Indeed, the ONLY artefact present that might be attributed to an XD-V system is the slight "opening and closing around each word" effect ...and that sound is one that we would attribute to your receiver's "Dynamic Filter" probably being set to "NORM" rather than "OFF", exactly as predicted by the amazing Mr Boomer.

Given that, in your situation, I would probably be operating (especially when using any headset mic that a pastor might wear) with my receiver's "Dynamic Filter" set to its far harsher "TALK" mode, the truly infinitesimally minimal amount of residual hiss (roughly 40 to 65 dB below the voice) that's in your samples would never be audible over the ambient noise of your location, regardless of how quietly attentive your congregation might be.

Which brings us to the "distortion" that you undoubtedly did hear, but that we most certainly do not.

Let me guess. You were listening from the "cranked up" mini-jack headset output of either your R-26 recorder, or your laptop, or your notebook, or your iPad, or your iPod, or that of another media player.

Now THAT'S probably where the distortion came from, because there surely ain't any in your samples, Brother ! :)

...And that "loud listening" is also almost certainly what's "bearing false witness" when it comes to your fears that arose from the residual hiss.

...I know there's problems in the diagram I included as far as placement and I wish the pastor would stay behind the speakers. Believe me I was getting feedback like crazy so I know those speakers need to be moved...

At this point, I'm praying that you
  • Bought your Audio-Technica BP893 from one of the two great outlets to which you linked by way of illustration and
  • Have kept their original packing,
as experience tells me that any attempt to use an omnidirectional headworn mic in the situation that you've so carefully mapped out is absolutely doomed from the start.

Yes, "those speakers" will almost certainly "need to be moved", but in doing so I would strongly caution you against creating any distance at all between the two that need to cover your different congregational areas from the OP side (to your pastor's and the diagram's right) of stage.

The more that they "share the same spot" to point their different ways, the clearer the resultant sound will be.

What I'm getting at is that every downstage (towards the top of your diagram) foot that you can move your "main pair" at PS (left of your diagram) and at OP (right of your diagram) will definitely prove to be truly valuable in terms of more gain before feedback, but that in doing so, you should make certain that you move both "halves" of the tandem array that's in front (downstage) of your current mixing position.

Sadly, even when you've done so, I believe that you will still need to employ a directional headworn mic for the pastor ...and so return your BP893.

Not only that, but I've found that most folk in your situation are unlikely to tolerate the black bulk of Audio-Technica's (and most other) directional headworns, and just about the only directional one that I know to work as its adequate replacement (both aesthetically and technically) costs roughly a hundred more dollars, being Countryman's E6:

http://www.sweetwate...tail/E6iDW6L1SL

http://www.bhphotovi...Microphone.html

That's why I"m praying the BP893's price can, at the very least, be credited towards your purchase of the Countryman.

A couple of other "hints" also spring to my mind:

The first is that you owe it to yourself to experiment and gain familiarity with both the "Speech Filter" settings in your beltpack and those "Dynamic Filter" settings in your receiver. I've come to depend on them when regularly touring with my nine XD-V receivers that receive from my eight beltpacks and/or five handhelds.

The second would be for you to possibly consider the later purchase of a second beltpack that you could have pre-configured (with different internal SF settings) for another mic or your choice of alternative mics or instruments you might use at other events.

Many folk don't realise that the digital system enables the silent switch-off of the first, followed by the almost immediate (and equally silent) switch on of (effectively a "switch over" to) the second, with both using the same frequency to the one "shared" receiver.

"http://www.sweetwate...e/detail/TBP12G

Naturally, the same "trick" can be performed in alternating between beltpack and handheld transmitters.

http://www.sweetwate...detail/XDV75HHT Go to the full post


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#1 tangierc

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:51 AM

The short of it:

 

  1. First run of new XD-V75 with body pack and new Audio Technica BP893 gives strange sound with short distance and line of sight.
  2. Results were the same even in more controlled environment, no speakers, just recording to a Roland R-26 for testing.
  3. I hope moving speakers will solve issue of feedback, but can't figure out bad sound being so close to receiver.
  4. No filters or special settings on receiver or body pack.  All default settings
  5. See (too hear) links below.
  6. I'm new to Line 6 and would like to build a setup around their products (including M20d and speakers)

 

The explanation:

 

Hey folks.  I just got an XD-V75 with the body pack and bought the HHTX mic  and Audio Technica BP893-T4 micro headset as separates.  I set it up for the first time this two days ago and was getting distortion on the setup (see below).  Some of it is distortion like it's compressed audio kind of like really bad Qualcomm cell phone audio.  But there's also a sound like there's auto gain with the vocal.  I don't know how best to explain it.  

 

The headset is the primary mic since it's for a pastor and he prefers it for the form factor and hides well for video.  I know there's problems in the diagram I included as far as placement and I wish the pastor would stay behind the speakers. Believe me I was getting feedback like crazy so I know those speakers need to be moved and the mixing station should be by the back wall, but for details I won't get into right now, my options for placement are limited.  Basically this is not our permanent space.  I can move the speakers though.

 

Here's two links to samples (below)in a more controlled environment (a small video interview set studio with all doors closed) with both mics.  i got the same distortion sounds and hiss behind the voice that modulated up and down; no speakers in the room, just the receiver going into a Roland R-26 recorder. The hand mic sounds good or better of course being directly in front of the mouth, but it's really to be the backup mic if the Audio Technica fails.  The inclination may be to automatically say it's the Audio Technica but I've hear very clear audio from this before and I can't believe it'd be used for theater (as it is) with horrible sound.

 

Thanks for any advice folks.

 

The Audio Technica Mic

http://nccfc.net/0711_025157_1.WAV.zip

 

The hand mic

http://nccfc.net/0711_025355_1.WAV.zip

room-layout.jpg


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#2 dboomer

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 12:27 PM

Are you ever speaking into both mics at the same time?  That would be a problem. 

 

Specifically which mic EQ preset are you running?

 

Have you tried switching the dynamic filter in and out?

 

Are you certain that the wiring is correct for use with Line 6 transmitters?

 

You need to be able to test the trasnsmitter by itself and the mic by itself as either could be the problem.

 

WRT feedback ... I suspect that the omni pattern of the headset mic may be limiting in your situation



#3 tangierc

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 12:43 PM

I can't speak into them at the same time since the XD-V75 only supports one mic wirelessly connected at a time ) either hand mic or the body pack.

 

Mic EQ was the factory default.  There's no settings activated on the receiver or body pack.

 

Not sure what you mean about switching the dynamic filter in and out.

 

I contacted Line 6 before purchasing the Audio Technica (and was told what type of connector needed along with power requirements.  If there's anyone on these boards that can confirm (again) using the Audio Technica found here:

http://www.bhphotovi...r_Headworn.html

 

I have no other mic with a T4 connection to test the body pack unfortunately, nor another brand of body transmitter that receives a T4 connector.

 

I'll try moving the speakers first to prevent feedback, but that doesn't change the strange quality of the audio I am getting.


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#4 dboomer

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 02:38 PM

According to the specs on B&H it should be wired correctly.

 

I would double check the bodypack EQ setting just to make certain.  I would also switch and try others as that may help your "tone" problem.

 

The dynamic filter is accessible in the setup menu.  Try switching it out and see if that sounds better to you.



#5 tangierc

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 02:44 PM

Thanks dboomer.  I am not sure if you mean by "should" that the wiring I have is correct or that perhaps my T4 connection needs to be corrected; that perhaps even though the pins fit in the right place, that perhaps the wiring is not correct.

 

Could you clarify please?  Thanks.


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#6 dboomer

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:18 PM

I'm saying they say it is correct. I don't know if they have added any circuitry and whether or not any is required. I have not checked it so I cannot confirm it

#7 RonMarton

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:05 PM   Best Answer

In considering what I'm about to say, tangierc...

It may be handy for you to know that I'm a professional TV Sound Supervisor/Audio Director with over forty years of experience, travelling the world covering live (or "as live") events for audiences who are both at those events and listening "at home".

That being said, as part of training some younger members of my team, they and I have spent some time listening vary carefully to both of your (truly excellent) samples via monitoring that is truly "state of the art", (Focal monitors and Sennheiser HD25 headsets) with the result that we can unequivocally settle one of your queries...

(Drum roll. please...)

The adapter cables you are using to connect both of your mics to the XD-V75 beltpack are definitely, absolutely, certainly and beyond any doubt correctly wired.

(Tish-boom !) :)

Now to the trickier stuff.

...I got the same distortion sounds and hiss behind the voice that modulated up and down...

It'll probably surprise you to hear that there's not a lot wrong with either of your samples.

Indeed, the ONLY artefact present that might be attributed to an XD-V system is the slight "opening and closing around each word" effect ...and that sound is one that we would attribute to your receiver's "Dynamic Filter" probably being set to "NORM" rather than "OFF", exactly as predicted by the amazing Mr Boomer.

Given that, in your situation, I would probably be operating (especially when using any headset mic that a pastor might wear) with my receiver's "Dynamic Filter" set to its far harsher "TALK" mode, the truly infinitesimally minimal amount of residual hiss (roughly 40 to 65 dB below the voice) that's in your samples would never be audible over the ambient noise of your location, regardless of how quietly attentive your congregation might be.

Which brings us to the "distortion" that you undoubtedly did hear, but that we most certainly do not.

Let me guess. You were listening from the "cranked up" mini-jack headset output of either your R-26 recorder, or your laptop, or your notebook, or your iPad, or your iPod, or that of another media player.

Now THAT'S probably where the distortion came from, because there surely ain't any in your samples, Brother ! :)

...And that "loud listening" is also almost certainly what's "bearing false witness" when it comes to your fears that arose from the residual hiss.

...I know there's problems in the diagram I included as far as placement and I wish the pastor would stay behind the speakers. Believe me I was getting feedback like crazy so I know those speakers need to be moved...

At this point, I'm praying that you
  • Bought your Audio-Technica BP893 from one of the two great outlets to which you linked by way of illustration and
  • Have kept their original packing,
as experience tells me that any attempt to use an omnidirectional headworn mic in the situation that you've so carefully mapped out is absolutely doomed from the start.

Yes, "those speakers" will almost certainly "need to be moved", but in doing so I would strongly caution you against creating any distance at all between the two that need to cover your different congregational areas from the OP side (to your pastor's and the diagram's right) of stage.

The more that they "share the same spot" to point their different ways, the clearer the resultant sound will be.

What I'm getting at is that every downstage (towards the top of your diagram) foot that you can move your "main pair" at PS (left of your diagram) and at OP (right of your diagram) will definitely prove to be truly valuable in terms of more gain before feedback, but that in doing so, you should make certain that you move both "halves" of the tandem array that's in front (downstage) of your current mixing position.

Sadly, even when you've done so, I believe that you will still need to employ a directional headworn mic for the pastor ...and so return your BP893.

Not only that, but I've found that most folk in your situation are unlikely to tolerate the black bulk of Audio-Technica's (and most other) directional headworns, and just about the only directional one that I know to work as its adequate replacement (both aesthetically and technically) costs roughly a hundred more dollars, being Countryman's E6:

http://www.sweetwate...tail/E6iDW6L1SL

http://www.bhphotovi...Microphone.html

That's why I"m praying the BP893's price can, at the very least, be credited towards your purchase of the Countryman.

A couple of other "hints" also spring to my mind:

The first is that you owe it to yourself to experiment and gain familiarity with both the "Speech Filter" settings in your beltpack and those "Dynamic Filter" settings in your receiver. I've come to depend on them when regularly touring with my nine XD-V receivers that receive from my eight beltpacks and/or five handhelds.

The second would be for you to possibly consider the later purchase of a second beltpack that you could have pre-configured (with different internal SF settings) for another mic or your choice of alternative mics or instruments you might use at other events.

Many folk don't realise that the digital system enables the silent switch-off of the first, followed by the almost immediate (and equally silent) switch on of (effectively a "switch over" to) the second, with both using the same frequency to the one "shared" receiver.

"http://www.sweetwate...e/detail/TBP12G

Naturally, the same "trick" can be performed in alternating between beltpack and handheld transmitters.

http://www.sweetwate...detail/XDV75HHT
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#8 tangierc

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:42 PM

Wow.  First thanks for the time you took to reply in detail.  Second - you nailed it and described what I wanted to say in better words.  I couldn't figure out how to explain the opening and closing around the words.  The distortion I was hearing from my Roland R-26; relatively new and haven't had any issues or sound like that before using the Line 6 gear.  The first time I heard it, the receiver was plugged into the Peavey, using one of the main outs to the R-26 for recording.

 

As for the mic - we had a Countryman, but positioning and repositioning, it falling or moving up seemed problematic at times and we thought we'd give this Audio Technica micro headset (bought from B&H) a try.  I intended to get the XD-V75 system with the headset, but the form factor of the one included is not something our pastor was interested in, particularly if being on video.  This is why I bought the mics as separates. Perhaps we need to return to the Countryman.

 

As I stated before receiver settings were straight out of the box testing.  I will play with the settings more though. Thanks for the advice.


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#9 RonMarton

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:09 PM

...As for the mic - we had a Countryman, but positioning and repositioning, it falling or moving up seemed problematic at times...

 

The "trick" for solving that problem, one that we regularly encounter with the much more expensive (not to mention less reliable and more fiddly) headworn mics that we use when televising from the Sydney Opera House, involves nothing more expensive than the flesh-coloured adhesive binding material that we find in most first-aid kits.

 

A piece of that sticking plaster securing the hook behind the ear is often all that's required.

 

A second strip, applied to the cheek, is generally reserved for vocalists who also dance. 

 

...Er, ...um, ...at this point I'm guessing that your pastor isn't all that likely to emulate the energetic form of worship that inspired Michal's despising of King David. (II Samuel 6:16)  :lol:


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#10 tangierc

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:43 AM

Ron you are so the man!  Your advice is great and helpful.  As you predicted of sorts, that AudioTechnica will not work well at all with our setup and one thing I forgot to mention was that this room in the diagram has 4 large industrial fans like this (http://www.lulusoso....certificate.jpg) that make it even more impossible.  With the off I can get some decent sound from the mic paired with the Line 6 gear, but have little room still to do anything with the gain and faders due to the speaker placement.  So for now we're using the Line 6 hand mic we bought.

 

HOWEVER...

 

The pastor loves the form factor of the Audio Technica BP893 and wants to keep it rather than return it.  Frankly I have hopes of being able to still use it when we move to our permanent space soon (hopefully with built in A/C).  I know it's not working for us now, but these are used in situations where people are getting good sound such as theater right?  So it must be just us and our setup/equipment wreaking havoc on this little mic.

 

Aside from that we're getting amazing quality sound with our Line 6 gear and the handset at least.  I and the pastor are very pleased, but the goal is a headset.

 

That being said as an interim he'd like to get something like the Countryman and I was wondering if you knew anything about the brand AVTronics.  The cost is so low comparatively that I'm a bit scared 


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