Compressor. Before or After

[NucleusX]

For the high-gain amp users, where do you like your compressor, before, or after your distortion ?

[Brazzy]

For the high-gain amp users, where do you like your compressor, before, or after your distortion ?

 

Sometimes I end up using after the Amp/Cab. Just depends on what situation and how it's sounding. Sometimes Comp is good before the amp and distortion. Try as much as possible in order to learn what gives and your own experience will kick in after a while.

 

I recorded this "A Short Musical Rant"  with a Gear Box Patch from my X3 Pro into RiffWorks. The X3 Patch has Comp after the Amp and I used it. Then it went into RiffWorks where I added more Comp. It's possible to use Comp all over the place. Just got to fool with it.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2015 by Brazzy

[NucleusX]

Thankyou brazzy. Nice rock tone there.

 

Lets say for this hypothetical example the signal chain goes like this.

 

Guitar > Comp ? > Distortion > Comp ? > Soldano (Clean channel) >

 

Compressor before or after distortion ?

 

I'm looking to do it all within the POD for live use rather than recording. Target genre is

melodic death metal, so i'm going for a tight rhythm tone for fast picking techniques.

[Brazzy]

Thankyou brazzy. Nice rock tone there.

 

Lets say for this hypothetical example the signal chain goes like this.

 

Guitar > Comp ? > Distortion > Comp ? > Soldano (Clean channel) >

 

Compressor before or after distortion ?

 

I'm looking to do it all within the POD for live use rather than recording. Target genre is

melodic death metal, so i'm going for a tight rhythm tone for fast picking techniques.

 

I see no problem with that set up. Maybe I should set do a set up like have there and see what I get with my HD500.

 

On the patch I used for that last recording I had the compressor setting very high on the compression and high on the gain, it was after the distortion and the amp. I was using my strat into the front of the X3 Pro and feeding it's 1/4 in outs L&R into the Line in's on a KB37 and monitoring and recording with the KB37. I had a noise gate from PodFarm VST set pretty high also. and then it went into RiffWorks EQ & Comp which was set pretty high.

[Brazzy]

personally if I decide to use a comp, I often prefer to compress the clean signal before going to the distortion FX/amp, rather than compressing the FX/amp distorted signal..

 

distortion and overdrive FXs and amps already add their own compression to the signal, so I prefer to not overdo what they are already doing, and eventually adding some compression instead to the clean tone could be useful to more clearly alter the note attack, sustain and signal level pushing the following blocks.

 

Sounds like a good professional attack at the patch making "H"! Thanks for sharing. :)

[NucleusX]

When I'm fast picking muted notes for a rhythm section, I'm finding that the distortion tends to muddy out the notes, rather than hearing a

clear definition in and between every note. On other gear, I go about it in either of these 2 ways, which always seems to work well for me.

 

1. Guitar > Compressor > Distortion > Amp (Clean) >

or

2. Guitar > Compressor > Tube Screamer > Amp (Gain) >

 

I gotta be honest here, I really have a hard time nailing a solid metal tone with the POD HD for some reason, I don't usually have this much

trouble dialling gain tones up on other gear. Another thing I find a little confusing is the FX Loop. Traditionally an FX Loop on a real amp is

located right between the pre-amp and power-amp sections. On the POD HD, I see no indication this can be done, it can only go before the

pre-amp, or after the power-amp, and no option to put it right in-between. I'm wondering if this is detrimental to the flexibility of signal chains.

Sure you can put a pre-amp in the chain, but you cant separate a pre-amp from an entire amp-sim to use its power-amp section alone.

Btw, I run into an FRFR setup, so I don't use any traditional hardware guitar amps or cabinets with this rig, so that's out of the question.

 

Not that the FX Loop confusion has anything directly to do with the compression subject, but I'm also trying to think of other factors that might

limit my ability in shaping gain stages to an acceptable standard for live use. A clipping indicator to monitor each FX block would be nice.

[joel_brown]

I do both.  I have:

 

guitar - compressor - AmpModel - compressor - delay - reverb

 

Typically the compressor is used first in the chain.  I found that using another one after the AmpModel actually has a more dramatic effect but it has to be set to a lot less compression than the first one in the chain. 

 

What the second compressor does for me is more similar to an Auto-Gain.  When I'm chording it reduces the volumes but when playing solos it increases the volume.  It takes a while to get the settings just right. 

[ColonelForbin]

For the high-gain amp users, where do you like your compressor, before, or after your distortion ?

 

here's the sequence on my regular pedalboard layout:

 

guitar -> Decimator noise gate (input tracking only)-> wah -> germanium overdrive -> autowah -> compressor ->phaser -> TS9 -> overdrive -> OCD ->buffer / boost with germanium limiter -> amp

 

for what it's worth, the Decimator noise gate function then occurs as the first thing after the amp fx loop send. the first signal that goes through it is for tracking the input only, so it knows how to tell when you are playing or not.

 

amp fx loop -> noise gate ->volume pedal -> chorus -> M9 -> amp fx return

 

I moved the first compressor around a bunch, trying it in various places before and after the overdrives. I tried it in the fx loop of the amp too. 

It can sound cool to tame one set of distortion, and then feed that compressed signal into a second round of distortion / overdrive.

 

the key with high gain, is the way the noise gate functions. the input tracking tells the noise gate if you are playing or not. If you are not playing, it assumes anything it hears is noise. That's why it needs to happen before the post effects like chorus / delay / reverb.

 

Works really, really well this way - for me. As for how to translate that to programming patches, anybody's guess.. In my board the buffer / clean boost / germanium limiter is a Fullton 2B, runnign on 18v power. More headroom.. It tames the treble response and packages up the the final signal right before it hits the amp, but just a touch. I like to retain dynamics, not too much squash, but no ice pick. Smoooth. Putting the compressor in that spot tended to squash everything too much, and introduce too much noise. Putting the compressor at the beginning of the chain didn't work well with the wah, and it really didn't like being before the autowah or the germanium overdrive. After the autowah helps tame some of the spikes that can occur with more intense autowah settings, combined with the overdrive. I like sandwiching the phaser between overdrives, so I can run overdrive either before or after the phaser - or both. I also sometimes use phasers in the M9 when I want a more swirly 'take over' of the sound. Putting phaser in the pre amplifier spot, especially into a distortion or overdrive tames it nicely.

[Brazzy]

When I'm fast picking muted notes for a rhythm section, I'm finding that the distortion tends to muddy out the notes, rather than hearing a

clear definition in and between every note. On other gear, I go about it in either of these 2 ways, which always seems to work well for me.

 

1. Guitar > Compressor > Distortion > Amp (Clean) >

or

2. Guitar > Compressor > Tube Screamer > Amp (Gain) >

 

I gotta be honest here, I really have a hard time nailing a solid metal tone with the POD HD for some reason, I don't usually have this much

trouble dialling gain tones up on other gear. Another thing I find a little confusing is the FX Loop. Traditionally an FX Loop on a real amp is

located right between the pre-amp and power-amp sections. On the POD HD, I see no indication this can be done, it can only go before the

pre-amp, or after the power-amp, and no option to put it right in-between. I'm wondering if this is detrimental to the flexibility of signal chains.

Sure you can put a pre-amp in the chain, but you cant separate a pre-amp from an entire amp-sim to use its power-amp section alone.

Btw, I run into an FRFR setup, so I don't use any traditional hardware guitar amps or cabinets with this rig, so that's out of the question.

 

Not that the FX Loop confusion has anything directly to do with the compression subject, but I'm also trying to think of other factors that might

limit my ability in shaping gain stages to an acceptable standard for live use. A clipping indicator to monitor each FX block would be nice.

 

Being honest is a good thing. A hard time dialing in a certain tone on the pod?, nuth'in new here. I think everyone would agree the FX Loop isn't the same as on a real Amp but it's useful and I've never tried it but I've read that it can be jumped, I suppose to act as a buffer. It could be useful I've just never tried that yet, lol.

 

Are the setting on your Comp set high, or did you already try different Comp settings.

 

Have you tried EQ'ing your tone? There's a good link about how to use an EQ for guitar. I'll try digging it up. If your getting muddy? Here's some notes I took from that article I was talking about; Cut the Low's completely (100Hz), add thickness with the Low-Mids (150-200Hz), Boost the Mids a little (500Hz), Slightly or more cut the (1-2KHz) if it gets thin, if it lacks presence boost (3KHz).

 

Here's the link to arislaf's thread on EQ'ing tips >> http://line6.com/support/topic/14480-some-guitar-eq-tips/

Edited June 26, 2015 by Brazzy

[Palico]

Sometimes I end up using after the Amp/Cab. Just depends on what situation and how it's sounding. 

 

+1. I use it after the amp more often but sometimes before. Just depends on what sound I'm after.  

[NucleusX]

Being honest is a good thing. A hard time dialing in a certain tone on the pod?, nuth'in new here. I think everyone would agree the FX Loop isn't the same as on a real Amp but it's useful and I've never tried it but I've read that it can be jumped, I suppose to act as a buffer. It could be useful I've just never tried that yet, lol.

 

Reason i mention the FX Loop, is that when using traditional guitar amps, the ability to place certain FX smack between the pre-amp 

and power-amp, gives the user more options and flexibility for shaping their tones more accurately to how they require it. This was

a major make-or-break factor for me while building signal chains with traditional pedals and amps, I avoid amps without FX Loops.

That limitation aside, i still use the FX Loop in other parts of the chain for other FX units i have, and to expand on the DSP potential 

for my entire signal chain over-all. So its still useful to me in other ways. Bypassing the FX Loop won't improve distortion character

for me, as its always placed after the mixer block anyways. I really think the problem lay from the amp block back.

 

What do you mean when you say "jumped" ? I'm all for learning another trick if i don't know it. 

 

Are the setting on your Comp set high, or did you already try different Comp settings.

 

Have you tried EQ'ing your tone? There's a good link about how to use an EQ for guitar. I'll try digging it up. If your getting muddy? Here's some notes I took from that article I was talking about; Cut the Low's completely (100Hz), add thickness with the Low-Mids (150-200Hz), Boost the Mids a little (500Hz), Slightly or more cut the (1-2KHz) if it gets thin, if it lacks presence boost (3KHz).

 

Most of my experimentation has been done with the Red Comp and Tube Comp, with all various parameters adjusted.

 

I'm no idiot when it comes to building FX chains outside the POD, like i said. But I'm starting to get the feeling that the POD plays by

its own rules when delivering results, so my trusty old knowledge doesn't seem to be of much help, so i'm guessing there's something

unique to the POD i need to discover thats key to building great high-gain signal chains. I've conquered every other genre tone on the

POD HD, no problems, its just the high-gain metal tone that trips me up, and custom tone presets are a bit "eh" to me to be honest.

 

Theres a million and one ways to use an EQ, and where to put it, so my experimentation isn't hugely extensive with EQ's within the

POD HD, but yes, i have tried them. Still, i appreciate your input, and thanks for the interesting link by arislaf ! 

 

If there's any metalheads around that have persevered with this, and have a good deal of experience playing metal with the POD HD

(which seems to be a minority) and have unlocked a great tone with a non straightforward combination of FX in your signal chain, by

all means join the conversation.  I'm chasing the brutal bone-crushing tone dragon here, and I've lost my way !

[Brazzy]

Reason i mention the FX Loop, is that when using traditional guitar amps, the ability to place certain FX smack between the pre-amp 

and power-amp, gives the user more options and flexibility for shaping their tones more accurately to how they require it. This was

a major make-or-break factor for me while building signal chains with traditional pedals and amps, I avoid amps without FX Loops.

That limitation aside, i still use the FX Loop in other parts of the chain for other FX units i have, and to expand on the DSP potential 

for my entire signal chain over-all. So its still useful to me in other ways. Bypassing the FX Loop won't improve distortion character

for me, as its always placed after the mixer block anyways. I really think the problem lay from the amp block back.

 

What do you mean when you say "jumped" ? I'm all for learning another trick if i don't know it.

 

I understand what you mean with the FX Loop not working in the traditional way as in between the Preamp and Power Amp of most amps. By jumping the Loop I'm referring to taking a short Y Cable (1 stereo, 2 mono) and plugging it in the sends and return so as to be able to use it to adjust it's levels. I've not tried and I don't have a Y cable but I suppose you could just use a mono cable to see what gives.

 

Most of my experimentation has been done with the Red Comp and Tube Comp, with all various parameters adjusted.

 

I'm no idiot when it comes to building FX chains outside the POD, like i said. But I'm starting to get the feeling that the POD plays by

its own rules when delivering results, so my trusty old knowledge doesn't seem to be of much help, so i'm guessing there's something

unique to the POD i need to discover thats key to building great high-gain signal chains. I've conquered every other genre tone on the

POD HD, no problems, its just the high-gain metal tone that trips me up, and custom tone presets are a bit "eh" to me to be honest.

 

Theres a million and one ways to use an EQ, and where to put it, so my experimentation isn't hugely extensive with EQ's within the

POD HD, but yes, i have tried them. Still, i appreciate your input, and thanks for the interesting link by arislaf ! 

 

If there's any metalheads around that have persevered with this, and have a good deal of experience playing metal with the POD HD

(which seems to be a minority) and have unlocked a great tone with a non straightforward combination of FX in your signal chain, by

all means join the conversation.  I'm chasing the brutal bone-crushing tone dragon here, and I've lost my way !

 

You may know more about music and patch making than I do. My experience is only with the digital chain really. I've built a few ModKitDIY stomp boxes and use them but I never had youth experience with all analog pedal board. That might be a good for me since I don't have the habits you may have or bad thing since I lack in that experience, lol. Either way I keep adjusting things and my set up time is reduced the more I do it.

 

I don't use the presets much either, I like making patches it's part of the creative process for me, lol, and one of the main reasons I wanted the Pod.

 

You might be right about the Pod playing by it's own rules, lol. Since it sounds like it's different than the way your used to doing it.

 

Your Welcome and I hope I helped some but all those ideas from the others are very valid too. So much good info out in the NET.

 

PS: Did you read Meambobbos guide? I think I have the name right? He's a MetalHead I heard.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Brazzy

[NucleusX]

Yeh all good Brazzy, I wasn't comparing my knowledge to anyone else's, thought I'd mention I'm no amateur

when it comes to these things, it just perplexes me that I'm having some difficulty here. Knowing I can't apply

that knowledge specifically to the POD HD in every sense, and there's so many amps and FX to try in a myriad

of combinations, its a bit frustrating. Could take forever in experimentation to finally find that "AHA!" moment, so

I thought someone might have a shortcut to bypass all that experimenting, we all know what its like to spend

too much time tweaking and not playing. Its reasonable to expect that %99 of analogue knowledge can be

transferred and applied to the digital realm, my personal experiences verify that to a good extent. And yes, I

have Meambobbo's guide here somewhere I can go back over, its been a while, and its a big read from what

I remember. I guess I should read it again, thanks for reminding me. Originally I thought maybe the compressor

was the key to it all, now I'm not so sure lol. :)

[Brazzy]

Yeh all good Brazzy, I wasn't comparing my knowledge to anyone else's, thought I'd mention I'm no amateur

when it comes to these things, it just perplexes me that I'm having some difficulty here. Knowing I can't apply

that knowledge specifically to the POD HD in every sense, and there's so many amps and FX to try in a myriad

of combinations, its a bit frustrating. Could take forever in experimentation to finally find that "AHA!" moment, so

I thought someone might have a shortcut to bypass all that experimenting, we all know what its like to spend

too much time tweaking and not playing. Its reasonable to expect that %99 of analogue knowledge can be

transferred and applied to the digital realm, my personal experiences verify that to a good extent. And yes, I

have Meambobbo's guide here somewhere I can go back over, its been a while, and its a big read from what

I remember. I guess I should it again, thanks for reminding me. Originally I thought maybe the compressor

was the key to it all, now I'm not so sure lol. :)

 

I hear ya on the tweaking, lol. Pretty soon I'm going to get nicknamed "Tweaky" Hahaahaha. As far as reading goes I read a little bit at a time since my coconut can only handle so many tweaking instructions.

 

The one thing that will get you there is trial and error, That's the one thing that will count the most.

[NucleusX]

Haha Tweaky, I like it !

 

@ ColonelForbin

 

Are you a metal shredder by any chance ?

[arislaf]

http://www.audio-issues.com/music-mixing/eq-or-compression/

[NucleusX]

Thankyou Arislaf, definitely handy for the recording side of things.

[arislaf]

Thankyou Arislaf, definitely handy for the recording side of things.

Welcome mate :)