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2 Guitarists In The Band: Me With Hd500 To Pa, The Other With Real Amp


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#1 hendrix83

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 03:42 PM

Hi all.

I recently got my hands (finally) on a POD HD500 with the purpose to play live with the band. But I'm facing a problem. I was planning to run the Pod directly to the PA, but the other guitarist in the band has a regular amp, and he doesn't mic it 'cause we intend to play in small settings like pubs. So of course the two guitar sounds are coming out quite unbalanced and have a weird diffusion in the environment.

 

So the band members (who are skeptical towards digital modeling) want me to revert to a standard combo or at least run my Pod into the power section of and amp.

But I don't want it! I decided to go with modelers because of the extreme advantages in terms of flexibility and portability and I don't want to give up on that.

 

How would you fix this issue? Have you ever been in a situation like this/do you have a bandmate wich runs through a real amp?

Is the only solution to mic the real amp in order to have an homogeneous sound coming out of the PA?

 

Thak you so much for your replies, they'd be much appreciated!

 

A.


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#2 Geekydaddy

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 04:46 PM

QSC K10 ;)


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#3 ozbadman

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:28 AM

I haven't tried this, but I suspect that you could get away with a pretty small amp on-stage, and also go through the PA. By having at least some of your signal coming from the same place as the other guitarist, our ears might well be fine with it. The PA is then used as your main power, but effectively reinforces the on-stage amp. This would allow you to keep the portability of the HD500 to some degree since a small amp (maybe even say 10 or 15W) would still be fairly portable. I'm guessing at the size, but this is how the sound reinforcement is done at the Hollywood Bowl (although technically on the reinforcement, there is a slight delay as our ears perceive the first sound we ear as the direction it is coming from, then it is reinforced deliberately slightly later by speakers to the sides). Might be worth a try anyway, and if you do try it, report back.


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#4 jjm35

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:50 AM

DT-25 

You will have the best of both worlds   ;)


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#5 Jeffsco

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 03:37 AM

I split my signal on my POD XTLIve...one part went to a FRFR Atomic 50 for stage mnitoring and the other went to the PA. Best of both worlds. For your HD500..I'd take the advice of the poster and run into a QSC or some other FRFR cabnet for monitoring.


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#6 Astaroth_CY

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:12 AM

Instead of spending a ton of money on a DT-25 or a really expensive active speaker, consider a small PA (powered mixer/speaker combo). This is the one I got:

 

http://www.guitarcen...577-i1469199.gc

 

You can find it even cheaper used (mine was $250 with pro coverage). Runs true stereo (unlike most small PAs around this price range), speakers sound great (and you can always buy better ones later), and has a really nice mixer on it.


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#7 TheRealZap

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:23 AM

you might just find you a keyboard amp like the roland 300... essentially a PA combo...


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#8 hendrix83

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:00 AM

The QSC K10 option is out of budget for me, too damn expensive... I was thinking on something more entry level (but still good) like the Alto Truesonic TS115a or Mackie Thump TH-15a. They're both in the 250-300 euros range and offer a sufficient wattage.

If I'm going to use the loudspeaker as my "amp", without going into the PA (as the other guitarist is not going to mic his cabinet for small gigs), I guess I'd need to place it behind me, facing me and the audience. Then, should I need an additional speaker in front of me as a monitor or should I be fine with just the "amp" at my back? What do you think?

 

Thanks so much for your useful comments!


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#9 TexasStrat

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:38 AM

I actually tried a Behringer 212D and a 215D and liked the tone from the 12" speaker a little better. it sounded pretty good and is an inexpensive solution. I since have upgraded to a powered EV speaker, but the 212D served me week for 2 years and was plenty loud.
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#10 Astaroth_CY

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:52 AM

The QSC K10 option is out of budget for me, too damn expensive... I was thinking on something more entry level (but still good) like the Alto Truesonic TS115a or Mackie Thump TH-15a. They're both in the 250-300 euros range and offer a sufficient wattage.

If I'm going to use the loudspeaker as my "amp", without going into the PA (as the other guitarist is not going to mic his cabinet for small gigs), I guess I'd need to place it behind me, facing me and the audience. Then, should I need an additional speaker in front of me as a monitor or should I be fine with just the "amp" at my back? What do you think?

 

Thanks so much for your useful comments!

Just keep in mind that the options you stated are just mono speakers so you're forfeiting the ability to have stereo effects.

 

If your band is running front monitors then you'll also need to run to a monitor. Remember you can use both the line and XLR outputs simultaneously on the Pod. If the other guys aren't running front monitors then you won't need to either, although having played gigs both with and without monitoring, through miked and unmiked amps and direct to PA, you really can't beat direct to PA with your signal fed back to a front monitor. Takes full advantage of the Pod and you can actually hear stuff on stage.


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#11 hendrix83

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:28 PM

Just keep in mind that the options you stated are just mono speakers so you're forfeiting the ability to have stereo effects.

 Yes I know, but anyway I could not use stereo effects even if I'd buy a combo amp. And by the way stereo effects are not so important at this stage of development of the project. I can definitely live without  ;)

 

Thanks so much for your advices about monitors! So, when needed, I could buy a second loudspeaker to use as a monitor and leave the first one as "amp" behind me  :)


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#12 napynap

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:53 PM

...and he doesn't mic it 'cause we intend to play in small settings like pubs...

Hendrix83, plan for the future. Eventually, you will both need to have some guitar in the PA, especially when you get outdoor gigs. I've learned this while working with a keyboardist in the band, who is always in the PA. I'm running a combo amp with a XLR direct out to the PA.


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#13 hendrix83

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 02:37 PM

Do you have any advices about how to EQ the sound of the guitar going to PA, in order to make it fit nicely in the mix with singer's voice and the other instruments? 


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#14 Astaroth_CY

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:11 PM

Do you have any advices about how to EQ the sound of the guitar going to PA, in order to make it fit nicely in the mix with singer's voice and the other instruments?

Use the DEP Low Cut parameter, set it accordingly to whatever effect you are using in order to make room for bass while still allowing your tone to have low end body. Basically just tinker with it until the "boominess" goes away but it still sounds good with decent low end. Do this on a FRFR PA (ideally the one you will be playing through!) or else you're wasting your time. Alternatively you can use the mid focus EQ as a high pass filter, but personally I dislike it - look up meambobbo's guide on using it.

To get out of the way of the singer's voice, I suggest you actually get a spectrum analyzer set up on a laptop (I suggest http://www.artalabs.hr/) and get your singer to sing a typical song. Look at the spectrum profile and see where their "natural" frequency lies (basically this would be a frequency somewhere in the mids for a male, high mids for female, and it would be the one that sticks out most prominently. you'll see lots of peaks, those are harmonics, go with the strongest one). Stick a parametric EQ at the end of your signal chain and scoop this out, once again scoop out enough so that it will leave room for voice but not cripple your tone, find the sweet spot. Even better if you are able to direct whoever is controlling the PA to scoop that frequency out for you, again you will need to optimize this BEFORE the gig.

This is all stuff that takes a lot of work and you will need to re-do this often, but it makes a massive difference. The sound of a guitar, a bass, and a voice fighting for frequency space through one PA is very ugly.
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#15 hendrix83

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 03:23 AM

Use the DEP Low Cut parameter, set it accordingly to whatever effect you are using in order to make room for bass while still allowing your tone to have low end body. Basically just tinker with it until the "boominess" goes away but it still sounds good with decent low end. Do this on a FRFR PA (ideally the one you will be playing through!) or else you're wasting your time. Alternatively you can use the mid focus EQ as a high pass filter, but personally I dislike it - look up meambobbo's guide on using it.

To get out of the way of the singer's voice, I suggest you actually get a spectrum analyzer set up on a laptop (I suggest http://www.artalabs.hr/) and get your singer to sing a typical song. Look at the spectrum profile and see where their "natural" frequency lies (basically this would be a frequency somewhere in the mids for a male, high mids for female, and it would be the one that sticks out most prominently. you'll see lots of peaks, those are harmonics, go with the strongest one). Stick a parametric EQ at the end of your signal chain and scoop this out, once again scoop out enough so that it will leave room for voice but not cripple your tone, find the sweet spot. Even better if you are able to direct whoever is controlling the PA to scoop that frequency out for you, again you will need to optimize this BEFORE the gig.

This is all stuff that takes a lot of work and you will need to re-do this often, but it makes a massive difference. The sound of a guitar, a bass, and a voice fighting for frequency space through one PA is very ugly.

Wow that's a hell of advice! Thank you! I will try that. What about making space for a keyboard player? Since guitar and keybord normally "share" the mid frequencies, how am I supposed to EQ my sound for that?

I hope I'm not bothering you with so many questions, but this is a completely new world for me and I'm starting from scratch...


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#16 Rewolf48

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 04:15 AM

With 2 Guitars, Bass and a Keyboard in the band then the most important thing is to work out who plays in what range and with what sound.  

 

That is something you just have to work out between you, but I am in a similar position as Rhythm Guitar (JTV) and Keyboards in a band that also has Lead Guitar (Les Paul/Marshall + top end backing vocals), Lead Singer (+ Dual Keyboards), Bass (+ MIDI Pedals + mid range backing vocals), oh and the Drummer! So we have 3 vocalists, 2 guitars, 2.5 keyboards (bass pedals for basslines or drones), bass and drums. 5 people.

 

If the two guitars are playing then you need to be completely different sounds e.g. Les Paul+Marshall v Strat+clean(er) or Acoustic, ideally playing different harmonies or at least different shapes in different positions.  If the Keyboards are all going for it then again completely different sounds at different ranges and especially avoiding the mid range as that is where the vocals are going on. And don't forget the most important part than many "musicians" forget - to just shut-up sometimes. If there are 3 part vocals (e.g. June by Spock's Beard) then most of the other instruments drop out leaving just a single instrument like acoustic guitar.  

 

his takes some planning but we really have a lot of flexibility.  Listen to bands that do this all the time - like 3 guitar bands such as Iron Maiden or Lynyrd Skynyrd.  And like all rules in music sometimes you just need to break the rules for a climatic effect. :rolleyes:


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#17 hendrix83

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 04:53 AM

Yes dividing and planning the parts is essential. But as far as EQing is concerned, I ask myself: is it better that each player EQes its own instrument at the source (like the amp, for example) in order to have the "final" sound coming out of the PA, kepping the desk EQ flat, OR is it better to just set up each instrument sound the way the musician likes it the most, and then correct the final mix with desk EQ knobs? So long story short: is it better to EQ "at the source" or at the final stage?

I mainly played as a classical guitarist for the last 10 years or so, hence I never had such "problems" to face in the classical guitar world!  :lol:


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#18 Astaroth_CY

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 06:49 AM

Wow that's a hell of advice! Thank you! I will try that. What about making space for a keyboard player? Since guitar and keybord normally "share" the mid frequencies, how am I supposed to EQ my sound for that?

I hope I'm not bothering you with so many questions, but this is a completely new world for me and I'm starting from scratch...

You won't really ever be able to make space for a keyboard because they usually cover such a wide range of sounds and frequencies. At that point it's just not playing over each other, or when you do it, make sure it sounds good.

 

To add to Rewolf48's comment, I do think it's possible to have multiple guitars and a keyboard running a similar-ish sound and playing the same note if you want to strongly accentuate a note or create a "stark" soundstage for the drums to counter. However, I agree that this should be used sparsely, and if you are going to do it, get someone who isn't in the band to watch you practice and tell you whether it sounds good. I find that I like bands that layer sounds all over the spectrum to create the "wall of sound" effect such as Devin Townsend or Minus The Bear, but also enjoy hearing the intensity of doubled-up or tripled-up notes such as you often hear in American Metal or some unison solo runs in Prog Metal. Iron Maiden are a good example of combining both approaches to good effect, although sometimes I do kinda wish Janick would retire because his leads are frustratingly pointless.


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#19 Astaroth_CY

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 06:52 AM

Yes dividing and planning the parts is essential. But as far as EQing is concerned, I ask myself: is it better that each player EQes its own instrument at the source (like the amp, for example) in order to have the "final" sound coming out of the PA, kepping the desk EQ flat, OR is it better to just set up each instrument sound the way the musician likes it the most, and then correct the final mix with desk EQ knobs? So long story short: is it better to EQ "at the source" or at the final stage?

I mainly played as a classical guitarist for the last 10 years or so, hence I never had such "problems" to face in the classical guitar world!  :lol:

Bands should EQ as a band. Ideally you would assign the most sonically adept person to man (or woman) the mixing board and balance/EQ everyone out. But, a good starting point for individual EQing is for the guitars to apply that high pass filter and that mid-range voice scoop, and for the bass to TURN THE DAMN THING DOWN. So, the answer to your question is both!


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#20 mark2711

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:10 PM

I use a marshall AS50 acoustic amp as my stage amp and believe it is fantastic for reproducing the sound from the hd500. I set the HD500 to line out and then XLR into PA's where I play and use the 1/4 out s to go to the front of the AS50 or into the effects return depending on how loud I am allowed to be on stage. Being an acoustic amp it reproduces the full range really well. One thing to remember when using an amp in to the front is to set the channel bass and treble to minimum. A lot of people dont realise that the EQ controls on amps tend to be passive (i.e. when you turn the treble up you are actually reducing the bass) and setting the EQ controls to 12 o'clock changes the sound from the hd500 quite a bit. I have played with a few different bands and all are very suprised at the volume and quality of tone that comes out of the acoustic amp. it just doesn't look like those sounds should come out of it.

Hope that helps.


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