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2 Guitarists In The Band: Me With Hd500 To Pa, The Other With Real Amp


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#21 artist1354

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:44 PM

QSC K10 ;)

Got my vote.  I use one and run through it direct to the p.a.  If the K10 is too expensive, a Behringer 212D is a very good alternate choice.


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#22 dbgrant

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 10:39 PM

I use a marshall AS50 acoustic amp as my stage amp and believe it is fantastic for reproducing the sound from the hd500. I set the HD500 to line out and then XLR into PA's where I play and use the 1/4 out s to go to the front of the AS50 or into the effects return depending on how loud I am allowed to be on stage. Being an acoustic amp it reproduces the full range really well. One thing to remember when using an amp in to the front is to set the channel bass and treble to minimum. A lot of people dont realise that the EQ controls on amps tend to be passive (i.e. when you turn the treble up you are actually reducing the bass) and setting the EQ controls to 12 o'clock changes the sound from the hd500 quite a bit. I have played with a few different bands and all are very suprised at the volume and quality of tone that comes out of the acoustic amp. it just doesn't look like those sounds should come out of it.

Hope that helps.

This is exactly what I use and it works very well, so good to see it confirmed. The advice about keeping the tone controls at 0 on the amp is spot on, although I run into the effects return on my Marshall AS50D, mainly because it's louder that way. I have the same response as mark2711 from people who can't believe the huge sound they hear. I'm not sure if it'd be loud enough for a thunderous drummer: I don't have one of those. I haven't had to set the master volume at more than 12 o'clock. Yet.


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#23 bjnette

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 05:35 AM

With 2 Guitars, Bass and a Keyboard in the band then the most important thing is to work out who plays in what range and with what sound.  

 

That is something you just have to work out between you, but I am in a similar position as Rhythm Guitar (JTV) and Keyboards in a band that also has Lead Guitar (Les Paul/Marshall + top end backing vocals), Lead Singer (+ Dual Keyboards), Bass (+ MIDI Pedals + mid range backing vocals), oh and the Drummer! So we have 3 vocalists, 2 guitars, 2.5 keyboards (bass pedals for basslines or drones), bass and drums. 5 people.

 

If the two guitars are playing then you need to be completely different sounds e.g. Les Paul+Marshall v Strat+clean(er) or Acoustic, ideally playing different harmonies or at least different shapes in different positions.  If the Keyboards are all going for it then again completely different sounds at different ranges and especially avoiding the mid range as that is where the vocals are going on. And don't forget the most important part than many "musicians" forget - to just shut-up sometimes. If there are 3 part vocals (e.g. June by Spock's Beard) then most of the other instruments drop out leaving just a single instrument like acoustic guitar.  

 

his takes some planning but we really have a lot of flexibility.  Listen to bands that do this all the time - like 3 guitar bands such as Iron Maiden or Lynyrd Skynyrd.  And like all rules in music sometimes you just need to break the rules for a climatic effect. :rolleyes:

This is the right advice. Pre production setup is an important part of rehearsal. You must have tonal separation otherwise you get wash outs where a player turns up but still is cancelled by another. A guitar is a full range instrument especially If you play direct to the PA without a mix Engineer. You might be washing out the others thus they want you to change back.

Playing guitar parts different to each other on the neck is essential for the best seperation and front of house mix especially during instrumentals.

The vocals gets the Lions share of the mids, up to highlows for mosts males,

The rythmn guitar should have a wide mid scoop to envelope the vocals Highlows overlap low mids, scooped up to highmids

The solo guitar should cut thru with a narrow highmid or highlow when with a singer. hihats and cymbols get the highhighs.

This is not set in stone and different genres have their peculiarities.

But to make things simple most records have lots of frequency cuts in them to fit everything into the dynamic and frequency range of the media.

Live there is a  wider dynamic and frequency range and more forgiveness but you still have to apply EQ cuts.

Give each player their frequency spaces. You'll sound great and can be trusted thru the PA


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#24 hendrix83

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:50 PM

Got my vote.  I use one and run through it direct to the p.a.  If the K10 is too expensive, a Behringer 212D is a very good alternate choice.

 

The Behringer 212D has a very nice price! How does it compares to Mackie TH-15 and Alto Truesonic TS115a? They're 15" speakers and I saw a few videos of people using them with the Pod on Youtube. They're both in the same price range, more or less. Furthermore, is it better a 12" or a 15" speaker? Does it make a very noticeable difference?

 

Give each player their frequency spaces. You'll sound great and can be trusted thru the PA

 

Yeah, I've read something about "frequency slotting". But how to do it? I don't have a spectrum analyzer so I have to trust my ears (with are not so used to this kind of jobs). What is the starting point for doing that? Is it better to work directly on the preamp knobs of the amplifier (and of the Pod simulations) or to have an external EQ filter for the guitars and bass?

Thanks!!!


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#25 artist1354

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:31 PM

If you think about the sizes of typical guitar amp speakers, ten and twelve inches, a fifteen seems too big.  I don't even like it when our bass player plays through his rehearsal amp which is loaded with a single fifteen.  It's too flabby.

 

The K10 lets the nuances of the modeled amps come through and fits in the mix onstage very well.  I saw another guitar player in a medium sized club gig once using a Behringer with a POD HD 500.  I think it was the 212D, but it could have been the ten inch model.  For the price it sounded very good.  His tone coming through the mains was great.

 

It really comes down to the fact that if you are pushing everything through the FOH speakers, whatever you are using onstage is mostly for your own monitoring.  The advantage of using an FRFR type speaker as a monitor is you hear exactly what the audience hears through the mains.


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#26 bjnette

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:54 PM

If you roll the flab off the 15' bass it tightens up but better it gives a tight defined bottom end.

 

When all players have an Amp combo or cabinet there is an isolation in the sound stage. But if two guitars both have say 2x12 cabs,

they risk washing each other out.

The first way to differentiate their tone is to lift one of the amps off the floor.

You can check this with your own Amp, on the floor the bass is hyped. Lift it up onto a chair more mids, higher onto a table, more top end and might get a little thin.

 

Bass is ambi directional and is best on the floor fairly centered with the drums.

Rhythm guitar could be a nice warm 4x10 or 2x!2 horizontal flat on the floor.

Lead could be  single 12' on a crate or  2x12 upright stack

 

If you think in those terms into a PA you got some cutting to do as the speakers up on stands are going to accentuate the bright and if you crank the bottom end to fill it out so it sounds balanced , no one else will be heard.


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#27 hendrix83

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 03:07 PM

It really comes down to the fact that if you are pushing everything through the FOH speakers, whatever you are using onstage is mostly for your own monitoring.  The advantage of using an FRFR type speaker as a monitor is you hear exactly what the audience hears through the mains.

 

Let's say that we aren't pushing everything through the FOH, let's say that we are in a small sized club and there's no need to place the guitars and bass into the PA, so we're playing through amp cabs only (me through the loudspeaker). In that specific case, small sized venue, the 12" loudspeaker would still be enough or would be better to go for the 15"?


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#28 bjnette

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 05:13 PM

12" for guitar, 15" for bass.

The 15" won't be as utilized by guitar. It'll work alright 

 

I being primarily a bassist want my bottom end and don't want a guitar invading my space and washing me

 

The guitar lives in low highs to highmids. Isn't that enough space!  2x12" is as low as your permitted on guitar and we bassists would prefer you stick to 4x10" unless your soling a 12 is great! LOLOL


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#29 Rewolf48

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 04:16 AM

I have 10" in my FRFR and it is great - I don't need sub-bass from a guitar (even if the bass player is invading my space by playing at the top of the neck ;)) .  

 

There are quite a few sub-woofers that only use 8" speakers, and the BOSE B1 sub that goes with the L1 speaker system only uses a pair of 5 1/4" speakers (also found in one of our bassists' cabs x4).

 

The only reasons for a 15" are to try and get low-end when using a really poor configuration such as only a pair of speakers on poles or because of poor design.


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#30 artist1354

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 06:27 AM

Let's say that we aren't pushing everything through the FOH, let's say that we are in a small sized club and there's no need to place the guitars and bass into the PA, so we're playing through amp cabs only (me through the loudspeaker). In that specific case, small sized venue, the 12" loudspeaker would still be enough or would be better to go for the 15"?

The twelve inch is still the way to go.


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#31 Astaroth_CY

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 06:44 AM

10" will carry guitar just fine, but if you play 7-string or drop tunings then a 12" will help bring out your low end a bit. However, it also means your low end flab will come out more and you will clash with the bass more.


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#32 hendrix83

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:00 AM

The twelve inch is still the way to go.

 

 

10" will carry guitar just fine, but if you play 7-string or drop tunings then a 12" will help bring out your low end a bit. However, it also means your low end flab will come out more and you will clash with the bass more.

 

Mmmh that's a hard decision. I'm tempted with the smaller size and lightness of the 10" model, but I also want to make sure to have enough juice for live usage (i.e. for those little pubs where we won't go into PA) and more headroom...

I'm taking a look at the Alto Truesonic models, they seem quite popular with people on modelers. I see the majority goes with the 12", some others go for the 15" but not many go for the 10".

I wonder if it's just the usual "megalomania" of the average rock/metal guitarist that thinks he needs a full stal with 4x12 cracked up even in small venues just because "it rocks!" or if it's actually better to go for a bigger cone, tonewise...


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#33 Astaroth_CY

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:05 AM

Bigger cone means nothing if the speaker is crap. Pay more attention to the quality of the speaker and the cabinet more than just the size. Also, I'm not suire if by "juice" you mean volume, that is of course not related to the size of the speaker but the speaker's impedance (which relates to its efficiency) and your amp's wattage, and "more headroom" can easily also mean "more frequencies you need to worry about cutting".


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#34 hendrix83

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:13 AM

Bigger cone means nothing if the speaker is crap. Pay more attention to the quality of the speaker and the cabinet more than just the size. Also, I'm not suire if by "juice" you mean volume, that is of course not related to the size of the speaker but the speaker's impedance (which relates to its efficiency) and your amp's wattage, and "more headroom" can easily also mean "more frequencies you need to worry about cutting".

 

Yes, with "juice" I was meaning volume, 'cause the Alto 12" is a 400w continuous, while the 10" one is 300w. I know that, as stage monitors, both would do fine. I'm not shure if the 10" would be enough as a stand alone "amplifier" for the gig.

What about the Mackie Thump series? Anybody has experience with those?


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#35 Astaroth_CY

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:19 AM

I run 100W per channel through two 10" 8-ohm two-ways and if I turned up my volume past 50% I think it might cause an earthquake.


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#36 Rewolf48

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 04:18 AM

Forget Watts they mean nothing - you need to look at SPL data and associated distortion figures.

 

My FBT Maxx2a with 10" speaker is only 200W into the main and 50W into the tweeter but gives 121 dB (@ 1M) 

 

QSC K10 is 1000W and gives 129 dB

 

Alto Truesonic are 800 watts of Class D power and SPL of 125 dB for the TS112W and 126 dB for the TS115W

 

To give you a comparison most guitar speakers are relatively inefficient and give 97dB to 105dB.  For FRFR which is simulating the distortion of the normal guitar speaker it needs a little more headroom to sound the same.

 

But none of this matters really because this is what experts says about SPL levels and permanent damage to your ears:

 

Question: How long can a person endure a certain noise level before hearing impairment occurs?

Sound Pressure Level   Sound pressure   Permissible Exposure Time
115 dB 11.2 Pa 0.46875 minutes (~30 sec)
112 dB 7.96 Pa 0.9375 minutes (~1 min)
109 dB 5.64 Pa 1.875 minutes (< 2 min)
106 dB 3.99 Pa 3.75 minutes (< 4 min)
103 dB 2.83 Pa 7.5 minutes
100 dB 2.00 Pa 15 minutes
  97 dB 1.42 Pa 30 minutes
  94 dB 1.00 Pa 1 hour
  91 dB 0.71 Pa 2 hours
  88 dB 0.50 Pa 4 hours
  85 dB 0.36 Pa 8 hours
  82 dB 0.25 Pa 16 hours

 

Very seriously as a musician you shouldn't have more than about 90 dB SPL without protections and ideally a lot less.

 

Conclusion: a 10" powered speaker of decent quality is more than enough for monitoring or backline 


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#37 hendrix83

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:55 AM

Thank you for all your replies. Now the quest is to find the right speaker for me. Maybe the Altos or Maybe the Mackies Thump...I still don't know. What I know for sure is that I must stick to the budget  ;)


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#38 wildbillmojo

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 06:45 PM

I play in a band with two guitars, one HD500 (me) and another conventional. In my experience you will screw up the front of house sound if you insist on playing through the PA when the other guy is not. You have some options:

  • Mic the other guitar player, even if it's a small gig, not for loudness but to spread his tone like yours is (and don't you be using stereo effects btw). Pan each guitar to a different place in the stereo image (e.g. 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock);
  • Get a small amp; the acoustic amp that Mark2711 suggested is a good idea as they have a pretty flat frequency response, but I get great tone out of my Blackstar S1-45 (using 4CM) or a laney Lionheart L20h straight into the front end. I have different patches for each amp as the amps have different characteristics.
  • IMHO the best option is a good small valve amp (maybe the Orange Tiny Terror?).

I personally prefer a good amp behind me :)


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