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Hd500x Dsp Limit


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#41 marcwormjim

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 03:34 AM

When would anyone possibly ever use 4 '63 Spring Reverbs, and a harmonizer strung together in practical or live use.

 

Never, if they're using a POD. The point, again, is that Line 6 chose not to meet the hardware demands of the software, in order to price it at $500. If they had chosen to meet those hardware demands, you could put eight '63 Spring Reverbs in a row. It doesn't matter if no one uses 8 reverbs - This is called quality-control testing. The maker of your car tested it for all kinds of scenarios you'll never use it for, and they do it because they have to. Conversely, Line 6 made a gamble and won on selling the same engineering failure, twice. That's because it was a strong product, even with its flaws.

 

I can give you two practical examples of why someone would cue up 4 '63 spring reverbs, though:

 

1. Using a DSP-intensive effect to quantify the available DSP.

2. Any other reason they can come up with. Maybe they're creative, or something. 


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#42 phil_m

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 03:53 AM

Conversely, Line 6 made a gamble and won on selling the same engineering failure, twice. That's because it was a strong product, even with its flaws.

 

You can disagree with their design decisions all you want, but there's no reason to call it an "engineering failure" simply because you don't like the way it works. Engineering is all about designing within a budget, and it often comes down to making these types of decisions.

 

The fact is that the HD500X (and 500) are $500 modelers, and for that price they give you quite a bit to work with. If you want more than what they are providing at that price, you have two options. Buy another product that does what you want, or augment the HD500 in some way. It's really not that difficult.


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#43 TheRealZap

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 04:05 AM

is it 2010 again? wtf... why we having the same tired argument....

the updated 500 (500x) does a small bit more for the same money...

you'll sell a million burgers at 1$, or you can sell 1 burger for a million dollars... which is going to sell faster?

line6 is a business.

you don't go to mcdonalds and ask for a lobster dinner...

if you want a specific product... go to whoever sells that specific product.... 

if the specific product you want hasn't been made...

make the suggestion and move along... maybe one day it will... maybe not...

maybe when it is finally made, they'll be something better anyway....

and you'd only be kidding yourself if you don't think that line6 has plans beyond the HD series...


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#44 perapera

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 04:23 AM

I totally agree that the DSP power of the HD500 AND of the HD500x is less than needed, but

sorry marcwormjim, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this:

If they had chosen to meet those hardware demands, you could put eight '63 Spring Reverbs in a row

 

follow me on this:

I can say with a good level of confidence that the Pod HD was the first affordable device to use freely assignable fx blocks;
 

any rack or pedalboard multifx I tried before, limited you to use only some kind of effects on each of the block

this means that you could not put three distortion pedals or 3 delay pedals or even an octaver and a wha in some cases

that was for the manufacturer to be shure that anything you loaded wouldn't overload the CPU
 

now, the ability to use for example many delays in series and parallel was one of the reasons I bought the HD500

and you CAN do that,

but, to be able to give you freely assignable fx blocks, the DSP MUST be "dynamic"
 

I think 8 reverbs is too much.
 

but two parallel chains with distortion, amp, modulation (or pitch), delay and reverb on each should be possible

and the HD500 AND the HD500x CANNOT do that!

in this sense I agree with you when you say that the HD500 and HD500x have an inadequate DSP power (and other hardware flaws)
 

so to summarise I don't think the DSP should provide the power to load ANY effect configuration,

but at least it should give us double the DSP power of the HD500


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#45 marcwormjim

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 05:32 AM

My disagreement is to do with Line 6 putting themselves in an all-or-nothing corner with the assignable FX blocks - If you can't accommodate 8 of the most DSP-intensive effects, then either limit the number of effects, or don't go dynamic at all. A post was made explaining that the compromise had to be either to eliminate dual-tones, eliminate the ability to re-order the chain, or keep both by forcing a DSP limit. Line 6 did the best they could, with the problem they created, so they could hit that $500 mark. I've never said that Line 6 "should" do something or that they owe anyone anything - What I have been doing, is pointing out not only what the original design shortcomings are, but that they've sold the same shortcomings for the second time in a row by still refusing to go beyond that $500 price-point, even if it means delivering what they intended in the first place. There's nothing more for me to say on that subject, except defend my non-diplomatic language.

 

 

"You can disagree with their design decisions all you want, but there's no reason to call it an "engineering failure" simply because you don't like the way it works."

 

 

Find a quote of me saying it that simply, and you'll be correct. 

 

Here's my reasoning, one more time (but without that offensive f-word): In order to stay at the target-price, Line 6 compromised software stability by only providing a portion of the required processing power in the hardware. At this point in the engineering process, this is a...BooBoo.

 

So, they go back to the drawing board, but because time is money, they work around the BooBoo. Note that at this point, the BooBoo is not only still included, but is dictating the rest of the engineering. Some might argue that, because the BooBoo is still present...that this still constitutes a BooBoo.

 

So, in engineering around the BooBoo, they implement a Dynamic DSP Limit that doesn't remove the BooBoo, but rather makes its compromising effects less-drastic - Damage-control. So, the BooBoo is still there, but smaller. It's been a few years since I worked with Venn Diagrams, but my sense of logic - Not involved in public-relations for Line 6 in any way, mind you - Dictates that a partial BooBoo does not constitute a Non-BooBoo.

 

So the BooBoo from the start has changed, and a lot more has changed to accomodate it...But that doesn't matter, because I'm guilty of some kind of offense for thinking that the BooBoo is still in the final product, to an extent that would justify still referring to it as a BooBoo.

 

Rather than apologize, I'll instead proactively promise to adopt whatever euphemism you think is more-flattering toward a company that won't read this, because they have a separate forum for suggestions. How about "Design Decisions"?

 

I admit, at times, that I question the company's design decisions. NO OFFENSE.

 

 

 


"is it 2010 again? wtf... why we having the same tired argument...."

 

They're selling the same tired product again. Capiche?

 

Sorry for the quote marks -The multi-quote didn't hold up too well when the post went through.


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#46 TheRealZap

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 05:52 AM

So? it's still what it is... only slightly better for the same money....

if the product was "tired" it would have been "retired" and something new...

it obviously sells well, because of the value for the price and the capabilities it DOES have...

 

"is it 2010 again? wtf... why we having the same tired argument...."

 

They're selling the same tired product again. Capiche?

 


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#47 marcwormjim

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:03 AM

No capiche, then. You know that question you asked, about why the tired old arguments are popping up again? It's because the company you're an expert on just released the cause of those tired old arguments for the second time. That other stuff about its popularity and redeeming qualities must be over my head - They don't seem to be a point of contention anywhere in the thread.
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#48 TheRealZap

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:08 AM

my point is if it doesn't meet your needs move on...

your complaint has been heard...

the 500x is not the next generation new model...

its a slightly updated version of the same model...

much like a regular tv... this years 200$ tv isn't much different than last years 200$ tv

 

No capiche, then. You know that question you asked, about why the tired old arguments are popping up again? It's because the company you're an expert on just released the cause of those tired old arguments for the second time. That other stuff about its popularity and redeeming qualities must be over my head - They don't seem to be a point of contention anywhere in the thread.


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#49 marcwormjim

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:20 AM

You're terrible at this. You're drawing all these irrelevant analogies between PODS and Mcdonald's and televisions to supplement your exasperation and butthurt over a relevant complaint about a product that hasn't been on the market a week, yet.

Take your own advice: If I don't meet your needs, move on. I'm not bragging when I say I can debate you into the ground, and be re-registered in a day if I'm banned for calling Expert Users out on posting irrelevant, rambling attempts at ad-hominems to extinguish valid criticisms I'm damn-well entitled to express, in whatever terms I want. And this is coming from a fan and endorser of the company's products.

 

That's my most recent complaint. I'll trust that it's been read, rather than heard, and that it won't need repeating.


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#50 phil_m

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:25 AM

I'm not bragging when I say I can debate you into the ground, and be re-registered in a day if I'm banned for calling Expert Users out on posting irrelevant, rambling attempts at ad-hominems to extinguish valid criticisms I'm damn-well entitled to express, in whatever terms I want.

 


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#51 TheRealZap

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:25 AM

terrible at nothing....

by your own admission the hd500 and hd500x doesn't meet your needs...

no analogy required... why are you still here? just to be a negative nancy....?

you have expressed your opinion... but to present the expression of your opinion as some sort of fact... is simply wrong.

 

You're terrible at this. You're drawing all these irrelevant analogies between PODS and Mcdonald's and televisions to supplement your exasperation and butthurt over a relevant complaint about a product that hasn't been on the market a week, yet.

Take your own advice: If I don't meet your needs, move on. I'm not bragging when I say I can debate you into the ground, and be re-registered in a day if I'm banned for calling Expert Users out on posting irrelevant, rambling attempts at ad-hominems to extinguish valid criticisms I'm damn-well entitled to express, in whatever terms I want. And this is coming from a fan and endorser of the company's products.


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#52 marcwormjim

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:26 AM

That's just your opinion.


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#53 dennisrford

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 09:44 AM

I think the HD500X is a work of engineering genius.  Their goal seems to have been to maximize flexibility and the quality of the models--which is what most users would probably prefer.

 

They could have cut corners on the spring reverb and other models in case someone wanted to put 8 of them in their signal chain, but they didn't.  They could have disallowed dual amps to keep the dsp utilzation down, but they didn't. They could have made other compromises to avoid the dsp limit, but they didn't.  I think they made the right engineering decisions.

 

Having said that, I don't know if I'll get one.  I had an HD500 for a while and didn't really bond with it. 

 

 
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#54 gunpointmetal

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 10:09 AM

or, marcwormjim is simply pointing out a "DESIGN PROBLEM" with the POD HD500-whatever....I agree if you are going to have eight freely assignable FX blocks and two amp positions, your device should be able to handle any combination of those eight blocks and two amps. Other wise you have "sometimes eight, sometimes three, depending on how many amps you use and if they include cab and mic modeling, freely assignable FX blocks" and "sometimes two, but mostly one if you like lot of ambient FX or pitch shifting, amp positions".

 

What they should be doing is putting R&D and time into coming up with reasonably priced (read sub $500) FRFR solutions for GUITAR PLAYERS (hey guys, target market for your products here) and working on more amps and ways to maximize the available DSP in the underpowered modeler you release a few years back instead of a "re-launch".

 

You'ld think some of these experts were like dating Line 6 or something....."Don't pick on my girlfriend, guys! I know she's only half as smart as I said she was and she doesn't do a lot of things I told you she does, but that's not reason to tell me she's not good enough!"


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#55 scheater5

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 10:28 AM

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#56 smrybacki

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:28 AM

Again, the HD500x market is NOT current HD500 owners. There's no reason for existing HD500 owners to be disappointed because they were not targeted for a vast improvement. Also, as you say, you are not having any problems with DSP. Why are you disappointed that a problem you are not having may not be fully resolved?

 

It's more the notion that there may be new amp models and other firmware upgrades that the (now) older 500s won't see that has me disappointed.  One of the reason's I went with Line6 versus competitors was theirpropensity to update existing firmware to give your product extra life for no more outlay.  This blows that right out of the water for me anyway.


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#57 TheRealZap

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:44 AM

then you have NO worries... they've publicly said that they will not have any special models or hd500x specific upgrades...

anything the 500x gets the 500 will also get... the only difference is that the 500x may be able to run an extra effect here and there.

 

It's more the notion that there may be new amp models and other firmware upgrades that the (now) older 500s won't see that has me disappointed.  


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#58 smrybacki

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:47 AM

then you have NO worries... they've publicly said that they will not have any special models or hd500x specific upgrades...

anything the 500x gets the 500 will also get... the only difference is that the 500x may be able to run an extra effect here and there.

Then that'd be better for sure.


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#59 TheRealZap

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:48 AM

indeed... by making the hardware more current and getting more new users, this will mean more incentive for them to continue to make firmware upgrades that we can all enjoy.

 

Then that'd be better for sure.


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#60 smrybacki

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 12:03 PM

indeed... by making the hardware more current and getting more new users, this will mean more incentive for them to continue to make firmware upgrades that we can all enjoy.

 

Agreed.


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