Pre Amp or Not

[firesidepicker]

I'm pretty novice at the moment with regard to Line 6 but some of my tones go through my pre amp and others go straight to my power amp  using the four cable method.

How do I get control of this.

 

[pianoguyy]

I think we are going to need more information on your set up and your patches - particularly an example of each (pre and amp). 

 

 

Please make sure to distinguish between physical devices and virtual devices --- such as: I am using the drive on my (physical) 5150 amp while using drive on my (virtual) 5150 amp. 

It sometimes gets confusing in here with all of the amps and amps, cabs and cabs, and fx loops and fx loops. 

[rd2rk]

First, what do you mean by "get control"? For what purpose do you require what degree of control?

 

As stated here repeatedly, "If it sounds good, it is good". There's neither a "RIGHT" way, nor any such thing as "Best Practice". The possibilities are virtually infinite. Therefore you must consider - just how much time do you wish to expend to exert this control vs actually making music?

 

Say you have decided that you MUST have all of your presets going direct to the power amp. Yet, you have presets that sound perfect using the 4 cable method. You might try copying the preset that you wish to convert, twice, in adjacent locations. Then remove the fx loop from one version, and A/B them until you've tweaked the conversion to your satisfaction. Sounds tedious? You betcha'!

 

FWIW, here's my experience. I am, at this point in my life, primarily a home/amateur player. I'm using a Blackstar HT5C, which uses a 12BH7 tube in the power amp section. That's a hi-fi tube, so it doesn't color the sound as any of the popular guitar amp power tubes would do (not to say it doesn't color it, just doesn't make it sound like a particular type of guitar amp). I never liked the preamp sections of the amp, especially the overdrive channel. The HD effects before the clean channel (4 cable method) sound OK, but after much experimentation I've found that the HD amps, full versions, with cab emulations, studio direct mode, sound GREAT straight to the power amp and 12" stock speaker!

 

But, let's just say that, as suggested by pianoguyy, you're running a 5150. Personally I find that, while I can get some cool sounds out of the HD's PV Panama emulation using the above method, it DOES NOT sound like a 5150 (to my ears - YMMV)! If I had a 5150, I'd use the 4 cable method when I wanted to sound like a 5150, and go straight to the power amp for other sounds. In other words, if you've got a classic amp, use it with the 4 cable method for the sounds that made it famous, and go straight to the power amp for the rest!

 

However, to get back to what I said at the beginning, in a virtual world of virtually infinite sonic possibilities, why do you need what level of control, and at what price?

[firesidepicker]

Sorry guys, I just need a simple answer to what I thought was a simple question, obviously there isn't one or nobody knows it.

 

Thanks anyway

[BillBee]

Just build your patches and set up your foot switches (to turn on and off your FX blocks) to get the sounds you want. Use HDEdit to make it easier.

 

-B

[pianoguyy]

Sorry guys, I just need a simple answer to what I thought was a simple question, obviously there isn't one or nobody knows it.

 

Thanks anyway

As I said at first, we need more information. 

You are correct, it probably is a simple solution but the question doesn't provide the detail that is needed. 

 

 

There are two questions that I get often. They seem simple enough. But I hate them with a passion. 

1. Do I know you? 

How the lollipop do I know who you know. I am not a mind reader, I don't know what is in your head. 

2. How do you live? 

I inhale and exhale. If you know of a better way to sustain life, let me know. 

 

And an honorable mention is: 

3. How long has your hair been growing? 

Since Birth. It doesn't have an on/off switch. 

 

 

 

And of course, you're probably wondering why I brought those up. 

Because they are also simple questions, but they are so simple that they are incomplete. 

 

We can't tell you how to control something when: 

1. we don't know what you mean by control

2. we don't know how you want to control it 

3. we don't know what other gear is involved that needs controlled 

4. we don't know what digital paths are involved in your patches that you are trying to control 

 

 

 

Some of us are more than willing to help in order to make the world a better sounding place. But we aren't miracle workers. You have to do your part. 

[firesidepicker]

Rubbish

[DarrellM5]

Rubbish

 

You're kind of getting off to a bad start here.

 

This tutorial and explanation on the 4 cable method might help though.

 

https://youtu.be/kI_SMjAb4GQ

[cruisinon2]

You're kind of getting off to a bad start here.

 

This tutorial and explanation on the 4 cable method might help though.

 

https://youtu.be/kI_SMjAb4GQ

Why even bother? He's already decided that everyone is too dim to understand his "simple question". If it's that easy, let him figure it out himself. Indignance is my favorite personality trait...

[rd2rk]

Fireside - Your initial question implied that you already knew how to use both the 4cable and direct to power amp methods:

 

"some of my tones go through my pre amp and others go straight to my power amp"

 

While displaying that you actually understood neither:

 

" some of my tones go through my pre amp and others go straight to my power amp  using the four cable method."

 

Straight to the power amp requires only a single cable from guitar to POD input, and another from the POD 1/4" out to the PHYSICAL amp's fx return.

 

4cm is used to to place the POD fx (such as noisegate/distortion/overdrive) before the PHYSICAL amp's preamp,and other POD fx (such as delay/reverb) between the PHYSICAL amp's preamp and the PHYSICAL amp's power amp.

 

This is why we asked for more detail as to your goals. You're right - there is no simple answer. But when you implied that nobody KNOWS the answer, it came off as rather insulting to those of us who try hard to help novices such as yourself to understand what is a rather complex piece of kit that provides a near infinite variety of possible solutions for a near infinite variety of possible goals.

 

If you haven't already solved the problem (getting CONTROL of the infinite possibilities) yourself, we're here to help, but you'll need to make an effort to be more precise about your goals.

[firesidepicker]

AH! now that was extremely helpful, thank you, now I understand a lot more.

 

I'm sorry for commenting on this site as a beginner which seems to have been something of an annoyance to some but I may return to it if I ever get near the to standard that some of you guys expect.

 

However I still don't see why my question prompted such an unconnected philosophical tirade from Gear Head or perhaps I am more ignorant than I thought.

 

Anyway "Just Startin" Thanks again.

[spaceatl]

AH! now that was extremely helpful, thank you, now I understand a lot more.

 

I'm sorry for commenting on this site as a beginner which seems to have been something of an annoyance to some but I may return to it if I ever get near the to standard that some of you guys expect.

 

However I still don't see why my question prompted such an unconnected philosophical tirade from Gear Head or perhaps I am more ignorant than I thought.

 

Anyway "Just Startin" Thanks again.

 

Welcome....4CM can end up being a fairly complicated thing as there is a lot of little things to tend to that will differ from amp to amp...Some of these guys have answered this same question 3 or 4 hundred times now...granted, they could have just posted the link to the guide....however, you could have search the forum and found the 300 or 400 threads in this forum on this exact same topic for many different situations...anyhoo, no harm done and again welcome...

 

BTW, Just Startin' (User Name: rd2rk) and Gear Head (pianoguy) are User Status...The user name is in the bar...The user status is above the avatar.

[pianoguyy]

However I still don't see why my question prompted such an unconnected philosophical tirade from Gear Head or perhaps I am more ignorant than I thought.

Douchebag, because an hour after you posted, when I was the first to respond, and I said ---- 

we are going to need more information  

 

You came back two days later saying you just wanted a simple answer.

A simple answer to what? I still don't know what you were asking, even after you said that someone answered it.

 

 

 

 

But, SpaceATL is correct. You, and everyone, are more than welcome to post - as a beginner. as a pro. as well as all points in between.  

We aren't mind readers. We need information to be able to help. 

[firesidepicker]

Douchebag?  Is it usual for members to resort to personal insults on this forum or is this a special privilege afforded this author ?

[MartinDorr]

It seems you forgot how you responded to polite attempts to help you ...

[firesidepicker]

OK OK lets start again.

 

I bought a Line 6 HD 500X and coupled it to my Fender Supersonic 60 via the "4 cable method" into the FX send and return ports. This I think is one recommended method that most people know about and as far as I know is the only way to connect up using 4 cables ? tell me if I'm wrong but please don"t get too "technical" or quote any values as I would appreciate as simple as possible if you could.

I then played various Line 6 pre-sets through the system using my Gibson Les Paul Studio guitar.

Some of the pre-sets played through the Fender pre-amp ( where I could alter tones via the associated controls ) and others went straight to the Fender power amp ( where I could not )

 

Sooo----  my question is ( which I thought would be simple ) how can I guide the latter pre-sets to the Fender pre-amp so that I can apply the pre-amp tone controls to it using this method of connection without changing the effect chain or hook up method or by going straight from processor into the Fender front guitar input or similar?  I have fx level controls on both send and return

 

If there is no way to do this without effecting the pre-set fx chain I would appreciate any suggestions on how to do it by re-arranging the chain, I know this may alter the overall tone by adding or subtracting blocks etc.

 

Sorry If you don't understand this but it"s the best I can do given my limited  experience.

[rd2rk]

POD as FX ONLY 1) Guitar to POD Input>POD FX1>POD FX2>NO POD AMP>1/4" Mono Out>FS60 Input>FS60 Power Amp>FS60 Speaker

 

POD as FX ONLY 2) (4cm) Guitar to POD Input>POD FX1>POD FX2>POD FX LOOP BLOCK(with or without POD amp)>POD FX Send>FS60 Input>FS60 Pre Amp>FS60 FX Send>POD FX Return (back to FX LOOP BLOCK)>NO POD AMP>(FX LOOP BLOCK COULD ALSO GO HERE(with or without POD amp))>POD FX3>POD FX4>POD 1/4" Mono Out>FS60 FX Return>FS60 Power Amp>FS60 Speaker

 

Either setup allows tone control from the FS60 Preamp, with additional tone controls depending on the POD FX chosen.

 

Add a POD Amp in either setup (either before or after FX Loop Block) and you now have additional Tone Control from the POD's Physical Amp Rotaries (on the board).

 

Add Physical FX between Guitar and POD input, AND/OR POD FX Send and FS60 Input, AND/OR FS60 FX Send and POD FX Return, AND/OR POD 1/4" Out and FS60 FX Return.....Depending what Physical FX we're talking about, that gives you that many more Tone Control Possibilities (and gain staging headaches).

 

Now, you might be able to run the Guitar into the FS60 Input, then out the FS60 FX Send to the POD with an FX Loop Block first in the chain, then POD FX, then out the 1/4" Mono to the FS60 FX Return....I say MIGHT because I've never tried it that way. Heck, maybe there's other ways to do it. However, in all of these possible scenarios, consider that the more STUFF you put between your guitar and your speaker, the more NOISE you're inviting, the more potential gain staging problems (EVERYTHING has a GAIN control, and we haven't even mentioned the POD's Mixer gain and Master Volume), and the more considerations like "if I change the tone on this thing, how does it affect the next thing", and thus down the line. Also, one might just work better with your amp. If it sounds good, ROCK OUT!

 

Consider also that I haven't mentioned ONE actual control setting. Above are simply routing suggestions and considerations. EXPERIMENT! HAVE FUN! DRIVE YOURSELF STARK RAVING MAD! And read Meambobo's excellent guide to the POD:

 

http://www.foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/

 

I'm sorry that there's no simple answer. Kinda like life......

[firesidepicker]

Thanks, This is exactly the info. I was seeking------ here we go !