HD500X DSP limits vs BIAS FX and iPad

[amsdenj]

I tried BIAS FX today using an Apogee Jam HD into the same FRFR I use with my HD500X. I used a similar amp and effects setup, same speaker and mic, etc. I have to say BIAS FX sounds pretty fantastic and is pretty convenient. The UI is very nice, easy to use and accessible. I used an BlueBoard to get MIDI control through Bluetooth.

 

Then I decided to see how far BIAS FX could go. I designed my own amplifier, based on some circuits I built years ago in typical Fender mods, and added all the effects I would ever want to use: noise gate, Wah, compressor, octavier, overdrive, distortion, phasor, UniVibe, dual amps with different cabinets, tremelo, chorus, two delays, one short and one long, reverb and global EQ. BIAS will run both amps and all these effects at the same time without a glitch on an iPad Air! How is it that an iPad has so much more computing power than an HD500X DSP?

 

And what does this mean for Helix? I like the idea of a good hardware device, but I'm thinking a good audio/MIDI interface, similar to an Apogee GiO into an iPad would be an interesting configuration, something that hardens up the connections. I wonder how BIAS FX and something like S-Gear compares to Helix both in therms of tone and flexibility.

[cruisinon2]

How is it that an iPad has so much more computing power than an HD500X DSP?

 

I'm the farthest thing in the world from a computer guy, so maybe I'm nuts...but I would have assumed this to be the case.

 

iPads are designed to do a million things. By comparison the 500X is a one trick pony. Hell, in the speed department, my phone out-guns the 4 year old desktop machine currently collecting dust in the living room. Doesn't surprise me that the 500X comes in 3rd in a race with an iPad.

[panaman]

it is not unlimited. common strategies in these kind of devices are to reduce sample rate and bit depth, or the quality of the algorhythms. the ultimate limit is physics: time- a cpu or dsp can only do so many computations per second before it has to drop data or start lagging, introducing latency.  from what i read the ios audio system has issues to begin with.

[PRSGuy]

Yes on Bias! I have actually toyed with the idea of building a mobile gig rig around Bias as well. It does sound good...I just would need it to be foolproof...which I am not sure of yet. I would need an interface that charges as well as connects digitally versus through the headphone/mic jack.

 

How was the experience with the blue board? I believe Positive Grid just released their own pedal board as well.

 

Helix does look very yummy...but Bias is an interesting product that does sound quite good, whether or not it is gig worthy I am not sure.

 

Never knew about the Apogee Gio...that looks pretty cool, thanks.

[amsdenj]

Re: Apogee GiO, it doesn't recover from sleep well, doesn't reconnect well, especially the MIDI. Apogee needs to update the drivers but haven't since 2011. It doesn't add to the reliability. It also isn't Class Compliant - meaning it requires a driver and doesn't work with iPad.

 

RME Baby Face and an FCB 1010 might be a better choice, but its starting to get expensive too.

[rd2rk]

Cruisinon2 - Exactly the point! If the designed to do a million things board were optimized to do one thing only, it seems to me that there's plenty of space in that big old HD500X case to put that ipad board. So why isn't the HD500X more powerful? two main reasons:

 

1) development/production cost vs profit per unit sold x # of units sold. I'm guessing that there's a lot more ipads out there than PODS, and that they cost lots less to produce. Consider the Fractal AXE II. It's fanboys'll tell ya it's the holy grail of guitar sound. And it costs, what, 5 times what a POD costs? Yet, I'll bet that BIAS or S-Gear could give it a run for the money and, combined with Amplitube and TH2 for pre/post fx, and the cost of a quality computer, still be cheaper.

 

2) Intended purpose. When I'm listening thru headphones, or mixing with a DAW, the computer amp sims sound SOOO much better than the POD, and there are so many more very affordable options available for fine tuning the sound. But would I take that rig to a live show? Not if I'm being paid, and not without my POD for a backup. Computers are fragile (think of the drunken biker who wants to dance on the stage with a full pitcher in his hand...), fickle (how good is the wiring in YOUR local bar), and expensive (the stage mgr is shouting "Hurry up and get off! the next act goes on in 13 seconds!" Oh damn, where'd my computer get to?).My POD, on the other hand is one single, dependable, practically indestructible and relatively inexpensive piece of gear. And all of that sonic subtlety that the the computer sims are capable of? WASTED in that awful acoustic space on a gyrating crowd of drunks. Live gigs (for most of us) are a brute force affair. Crank it up and kick a$$! The POD is MORE than sufficient to that task!

 

To sum it up, the laws of physics bow to the laws of economics and the practical realities of performance take precedence over the virtual reality of the studio/bedroom. Different tools for different jobs. As ever it was and always will be!

[amsdenj]

rd2rk, very well said, and I completely agree. However... an iPad is a pretty solid device, can be placed in a stand or case to harden it and is small and quick to pack away. Many of us who don't play out that often need them for lyrics and arrangement reminters too - but there's no excuse for not knowing the songs you're getting paid to play.

 

The issue though is getting sound into and out of the iPad, and getting MIDI control of the effects. An Apogee Jam HD is pretty solid and can be velcro'd to the back of the iPad stand or something. The audio output is a little more challenging - I use an adapter and a long-ish TRS insert cable to get stereo to my FRFR amp. That needs to be attached to the stand too to prevent anything from pulling on the iPad connector.

 

The Blueboard is a toy. It would likely never hold up in a gig situation, its too small, light, battery powered and only has 4 switches, not nearly enough. Positivegird may have something better, but its still only 4 switches and Bluetooth which can have connectivity problems. And you have to run a seperate app to convert Bluetooth to MIDI.

 

Is all this more convenient and reliable than a real amp and complex pedal board? Maybe not, but it might be getting there.

 

This is the challenge for me regarding Helix. At $500 I can justify the POD, and it makes a reasonable audio/MIDI device into a computer too. But at 3x that, I'm starting to think the power and flexibility of an iPad or MacBook Air with a good interface like RME Babyface and an FCB1010 might be a better option.

[rd2rk]

G.A.S. aside, I've already decided. 6 months from now this forum will be filled with opinions, the initial bugs will mostly be worked out, and there'll be sufficient stock in the supply chain. I'll get a Helix from Sweetwater and, if it sounds as good as BIAS and S-Gear, I'll keep it and sell the HD. Simplicity and true zero latency rules in the outside world. If not, it goes back!

 

Meantime I'm using (at home) a hybrid setup with the HD, BIAS, S-Gear and an i5 laptop. The sims are loaded into Cantabile and controlled by the POD and a Korg nanoKontrol (S-Gear). I've figured out how to simulate the FCB1010/UNO Stompbox mode setup, where the HD's LEDs mimic bi-directionality, reflecting the status of the FX in either Amplitube or TH2, before or after BIAS and S-Gear, as required. Works good, sounds good. Pop in an instance of EZDrummer, I'm a virtual one man band (might EZKeys be in my future? Another G.A.S. attack! When will the blighters let us be?)!

[Goldbugnz]

Just to throw my 10c worth into the conversation,I have recently purchased an iconnectaudio4 interface. This allows me to connect and charge my ipad and iphone at the same time, with 4 audio inputs, 4 outputs (+ phones) and multiple midi options (DIN, usb)

This means I can route audio (guitars, keys, bass, vocals) through either I device, through bias fx, loopy, or any other app, as well as controlling midi apps (animoog, sample tank etc)

Takes a little setting up and getting used to, but the possibilities are endless

[Goldbugnz]

Just to throw my 10c worth into the conversation,I have recently purchased an iconnectaudio4 interface. This allows me to connect and charge my ipad and iphone at the same time, with 4 audio inputs, 4 outputs (+ phones) and multiple midi options (DIN, usb)

This means I can route audio (guitars, keys, bass, vocals) through either I device, through bias fx, loopy, or any other app, as well as controlling midi apps (animoog, sample tank etc)

Takes a little setting up and getting used to, but the possibilities are endless

[DunedinDragon]

The advise about using something that's designed to do a million things and something that's designed to be very specific is worth listening to.

 

I spent the vast majority of my life as a developer and designer of software and hard-coded real-time devices.  Although a generalized device like an iPad or computer can be very flexible, those programs are run in free memory and have to negotiate with the operating system for access to hardware devices, memory, and embedded system functionality while interacting through a layer of security and communications software.  There's a cost involved in these things that direct hardware programming in a specialized system doesn't have to pay.

 

Where this typically plays out is not in a casual testing of functionality, but in a production environment where things are changing quickly and relentlessly...like in a live performance over a span of several hours.  Places where it's critically important that things don't fail.  Playing around and getting something to work is not the same as stress testing, which is where these type of generalized devices will most likely have problems as they try to allocate, discard memory, and cleanup unused segments of memory and such...things a hard-coded hardware device doesn't have to deal with because it's got a very specific job and only that job to do.  This is one of the reasons you see the DSP limits which are hardcoded into the Pod..so it doesn't exceed it's real-time performance requirements.