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Line 6 G90: Main Out Muted, But Tuner Out Still Audible Via Korg Dtr-1000

relay g90 mute korg dtr 1000

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#1 Rob-Roy

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:47 PM

Hello,

 

I'm facing problem with mute function on my simple rig including G90, Korg DTR-1000 and amp.

 

I think I'm having pretty same problem as the guy right here: http://line6.com/support/thread/39527

 

Case in short: I have G90 main output plugged right into amp, tuner output is plugged into rack tuner and problem is, when I press mute on the beltpack and want to silently tune, I can't tune silently because there is still coming sound from the amp. It is sounding like amp itself playing on very low volume.

 

Any ideas what to do about it?

 

I'm pretty sure it started just one month ago on last gig. Yesterday at rehearsal room I needed to try 2 transmitter setup and the sound bleeded although mute was ON so I've started to wonder what's wrong?

 

Thanx in advance for your time!


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#2 RonMarton

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:43 AM

I don't believe it's your G90 receiver that is at fault here, Rob-Roy.

 

You'll be able to confirm this yourself with a quick check that by-passes your (now discontinued) Korg rack-mount tuner.

 

Listening to the "Main Out" from your G90 receiver with it plugged directly into your amp will instantly reveal whether or not that receiver "Main Out" is indeed absolutely silent when its beltpack-induced "Mute" is engaged.

 

I'll bet dollars to donuts that it will be, which would mean that it's the DTR 1000 that's betraying your privacy by "leaking" the Relay G90's non-muting "Tuner" output to the world.

 

(Do you think it's possible that, in his early career, Julian Assange used to work for Korg ?)  :ph34r:

 

The fact that other sufferers have posted "pseudo balancing" of the G90's "Tuner Out" (by means of connecting it to their amps via a D.I. box) as a viable "work around" for exactly this problem would tend to confirm Don Boomer's earlier suspicions of inadequate isolation within Korg's DTR-1000, possibly (as he's indicated) related to a deficiency in its internal "earthing" or "shielding" arrangements.


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#3 Rob-Roy

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:31 AM

RonMarton: I'll bring the rack back home for further testing it's very strange behaviour and I don't understand it at all!

Thank you.


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#4 RonMarton

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:19 AM

...I'll bring the rack back home for further testing...

 

Excellent.

 

As I indicated earlier, I fully expect you to report silence from the "Main" output of your Relay G90 receiver when your beltpack is muted, with just that Relay G90 "Main" output plugged directly into your amplifier, completely bypassing the Korg rack-mounted tuner.

 

To my mind, that silence (with only that direct connection via a single cable) would then prove that your G90 receiver is not the source of the problem.

 

...I don't understand it at all!

 

Sorry, Rob-Roy, I'll try to be clearer...

 

As befits its intended purpose, the G90 receiver's "Tuner" output remains fully "live" at all times in order to provide a "private" signal from the instrument to only a chromatic tuner whenever that receiver's "Main" output (the "public address" one that's intended to be shared with the audience) is muted.

 

It would seem that the Korg DTR-1000 has a known problem with its internal isolation (that Don and I suspect probably arises from "earthing" or "shielding" deficiencies) that causes signals presented to that supposedly "private" input (in this case the "always live" output from your G90's "Tuner/Aux" jack) to "leak" into the DTR-1000's "public" output, being the one from it to your amplifier.

 

Intermittency is also typical of such "shielding" or "isolation" problems.

 

The "pseudo-balancing" of that "Tuner/Aux" output by means of a D.I. box is the "work around" that other DTR-1000 users have reportedly used to effect a "cure" for that known leakage problem that's inside the DTR-1000. 


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#5 Rob-Roy

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:27 AM

RonMarton: Thanks again for reply.

 

I don't get it because I have G90 main output plugged into amp input and G90 tuner output is plugged into tuner input. The tuner output isn't plugged to the amp, so you are trying to say that tuner input somehow send signal back to G90 tuner output which causes the "noise bleed" although mute function is ON?


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#6 RonMarton

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:56 AM

I'm saying that you can easily prove whether or not a single lead from your G90 receiver's "Main Out" directly to your amplifier will mute perfectly ...and I'm betting that it will.

 

Sorry, but I thought you were operating with THREE cables, of which TWO went INTO the Korg DTR-1000...

  • A "Tuner/Aux" output from the G90 that's always "live" and
  • The G90's "Main" output that mutes in response to a digital command from your beltpack...and
  • A third cable that took the output of your Korg DTR-1000 to your amplifier's input.

The Korg DTR-1000 reportedly has a known INTERNAL fault that intermittently allows a "leaked" output from (1) above (the one that should remain "Private") to appear in such a third cable, the one that takes the Korg DTR-1000 rack-mount chromatic tuner's output to your amplifier's input, thereby effectively negating the "mute".

 

What's more you are absolutely CORRECT in thinking that the above "earthing" or "shielding" problem is indeed most likely to be the source of the intermittent "leakage" you're experiencing across the two cables you are using, whereby the G90 receiver's "Tuner" output appears at the input to your amplifier in almost exactly the same way. 


Edited by RonMarton, 24 July 2013 - 06:22 AM.
Ron M's misunderstanding of Rob-Roy's connection scheme.

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#7 Rob-Roy

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:43 PM

 RonMarton: So...

 

I've made some testing few moments ago and the problem occurs in both reasonable "cable situations."

 

1) G90 Main output to amp / G90 Tuner output to Korg input = signal bleed when mute is ON

2) G90 Main output to Korg input / Korg output to amp = signal bleed when mute is ON

 

There is really something funny with the Korg DTR-1000.

 

Next thing I've found out is that when I use setup 1) and add one "patch cable" - the G90 mute works OK but there is some loud "white hum" going on. "Patch cable" connects Mute and Out jack on Korg tuner (look at picture below).

 

7w2o.jpg


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#8 RonMarton

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:13 PM

First of all, I'd just like to make it clear that I've been very fond of Korg products ever since I "fell in love" with the original analog MS-20 monophonic synth that I used to create a variety of "atmospheres" for a Sci-Fi series that I was working on at the dawn of the eighties.

 

(They've just released a modern "clone" that faithfully re-creates all of the original's analog artefacts, despite its modern internals, with the substitution of a mini 3.5mm patchfield for the original's full-size one being the main "clue" to it being a current issue.)

 

Back when their DTR-1000 was being designed, they couldn't possibly have anticipated the variety of hook-ups that might be engendered by later gear such as Line 6 Relay systems.

 

Now, a quick question, Rob-Roy...

 

Are you using the XL output to go from the back of the Relay receiver to your amp, or the (more-likely) guitar-jack connections throughout ?


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#9 RonMarton

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 03:00 PM

Now, a quick question, Rob-Roy...

Are you using the XL output to go from the back of the Relay receiver to your amp, or the (more-likely) guitar-jack connections throughout ?


Not so quick after all...

(I'm guessing you've probably "shut down" for a night's sleep, whereas I'm just about to have breakfast before attending the SMPTE Symposium that's in Sydney's Darling Harbour Exhibition & Convention Centre this week.)

In submitting something for you to try, I'll just assume you'd have answered "Yes" to that question, but first, an admission...

As you'll probably have gathered from my earlier misunderstanding, your snapshot was my first view of the rear panel of Korg's DTR-1000, despite having watched many players use them over the years.

That's because my role has always been that of "Engineer" or "Producer", an "FOH Jockey" that left "Secret Players' Business" alone.

These days, however, most performers (like one I worked with just last night) simply employ an "app" in their smartphones that uses the phone's inbuilt mic for guidance when they're tuning.

However, most players with the rack-mounted tuners were (and are) cabled, so they simply "cosy up" to their rigs for that "secret" ritual, but I really appreciate your (and others') wish to simply press an "up close and personal" button that should allow you to simply look at the DTR-1000's lovely display to tune "visually" (and wirelessly) from anywhere on stage, in total "acoustic privacy".

Rather than the inconvenience of accommodating an extra "box" to "D.I.-isolate" your G90 receiver from your Korg unit (which the documented experience of others indicates would almost certainly yield a "work around cure"), I'd suggest you try making a "dummy" plug that would simulate a footswitch being permanently engaged to mute the DTR-1000's output.

The easiest way to try this involves the "sacrifice" of one of those ghastly, cheaply moulded plastic guitar-jack leads that some manufacturers "toss in" with their products.

Just chop the jack plug off while leaving two or three centimetres (roughly an old-fashioned inch or so) of cable hanging out. You then strip the insulation from that "pigtail" and create a "short circuit" by twisting its bared centre conductor wire into its similarly bared outer "shield" wire.

Inserting that "shorting" plug into either of the Korg's "Mute" jack sockets may well do the trick, provided you use the first of your two hook-up scenarios, your original "Number One".

If a quick "wires twisted together" trial of that "trick" does indeed facilitate what you're seeking, (and I reckon there's a really good chance it will) I'd recommend that you subsequently (eventually) make a soldered version of that "dummy footswitch" plug (maybe even using a higher quality metal jack plug, ...hang the expense) that you'd simply leave permanently inserted in the DTR-1000's rear-panel "Mute" socket.


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#10 Rob-Roy

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 03:11 AM

The "cable method" works totally OK!!!

 

Yesterday we've played on festival, I've used fullstack and the tuning was silent!


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#11 RonMarton

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 05:17 AM

Sorry, Rob-Roy...

 

But does that "cable method" refer to the "dummy footswitch" plug arrangement that I suggested ?


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#12 Rob-Roy

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 07:38 AM

RonMarton: Ooops, there should be "patch cable method." The method showed on picture above. Works like a charm! I was surprised it didn't make any weird hum or noise - like it did at home.

 

I'm glad I don't need to cut cables or buy D.I.Box. And thanx for your tips.


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#13 dboomer

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 08:17 AM

I'm confused .... why don't you run the main output of your G90 into your amp and leave the tuner out of the audio circuit completely?  Run the mute output  from the G90 to the tuner.  That way the tuner cannot contribute anything to the audio signal.



#14 RonMarton

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 03:56 PM

...Ooops, there should be "patch cable method." The method showed on picture above. Works like a charm! I was surprised it didn't make any weird hum or noise - like it did at home...

 

The problem with that "patch cable method", Rob-Roy, is the great likelihood of your "home-hum" raising it's ugly head again whenever the earthing situation "on the road" is similar to the one you experienced "at home".

(A corollary to "Murphy's Law" states that this is most likely to occur when you have the least time available to set up.) :wacko: :lol:

I will try to explain...

What you've done is almost a "simulation" of the "shorting plug" that I'm suggesting, (indeed, it prompted my suggestion) but not only does your patch cable itself create an "earth loop", but also nobody can be sure what the actual impedance effect of that cabling might be, ...so you are very likely to be setting yourself up for an even nastier surprise later, probably when you can least afford it. (See "Murphy's Law", above.)

Accordingly, you should DEFINITELY replace (or sacrifice) that patch cable to permanently plug a GUARANTEED "footswitch simulating" short circuit (zero ohms or "closed contact") into your Korg DTR-1000's rear panel "MUTE close-mute" socket.

 

...Run the mute output from the G90 to the tuner. That way the tuner cannot contribute anything to the audio signal...

 

OK, Don...

Now I'm confused ! :lol:

I don't know what you mean by that, mate, ...but a brief summary of what's happening is that the DTR-1000 rack-mount tuner seems to have well documented isolation issues that you (among others) identified a long time ago.

Rob-Roy's preferred set-up simply takes his G90 "Main Output" directly to his amp, with its "Tuner/Aux" output going just as directly to the input of his rack-mount Korg chromatic tuner, with a view (excuse the pun) to him being able to just turn around and tune (or re-tune) visually, using the Korg's brilliant (another pun, ...sorry, ...I just can't help myself) front-panel display.

Now, we would expect that, with no output from the DTR-1000 actually being connected to anything, Rob-Roy could do that "privately" by simply muting at his beltpack, cocking an ear to his instrument and looking at the display.

Not so. The rack-mounted Korg's internal isolation problem can have anything that appears at it's output intermittently "leaking" from the G90's (supposedly "private" and permanently "live") "Tuner/Aux" cable (most likely back via the "earths" that become "common" at the unbalanced sockets of the receiver) across to the only other cable, being the one from the G90's "Main Out" directly to the amplifier.

That weird (probably earth-related) isolation fault in the rack-mount tuner effectively bypasses the G90 receiver's beltpack-initiated "Mute", ...so Rob-Roy's tuning "routine" leaks into the amplifier and out to the world at large.

Hence the need to solidly mute the Korg DTR-1000's output for this application.


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#15 Rob-Roy

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:57 AM

The problem with that "patch cable method", Rob-Roy, is the great likelihood of your "home-hum" raising it's ugly head again whenever the earthing situation "on the road" is similar to the one you experienced "at home".

(A corollary to "Murphy's Law" states that this is most likely to occur when you have the least time available to set up.) :wacko: :lol:

I will try to explain...

What you've done is almost a "simulation" of the "shorting plug" that I'm suggesting, (indeed, it prompted my suggestion) but not only does your patch cable itself create an "earth loop", but also nobody can be sure what the actual impedance effect of that cabling might be, ...so you are very likely to be setting yourself up for an even nastier surprise later, probably when you can least afford it. (See "Murphy's Law", above.)

Accordingly, you should DEFINITELY replace (or sacrifice) that patch cable to permanently plug a GUARANTEED "footswitch simulating" short circuit (zero ohms or "closed contact") into your Korg DTR-1000's rear panel "MUTE close-mute" socket.

 

Hello Ron, I guess you are right about earthing situation. It can happen.

 

I also tried tried the footswitch situation. Instead of patching cable from OUT to MUTE I had footswitch plugged in to MUTE input and didn't help - the tuning was audible again :-(

 

The only solution to mute the tuning completely in my signal chain is to use "patch cable method" (connect Korg OUTput to MUTEinput) but it raises the hum (somewhere very noticable, somewhere not).

 

My signal chain is as I mentioned earlier:

G90 main output -> Amp

G90 tuner output -> Tuner

 

I can't find the older topic with D.I. Box and I would like to try it with D.I. Box. Can you tell me, how would the signal chain look with D.I. Box? Thanks.


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#16 RonMarton

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:30 AM

I'm a little surprised, Rob-Roy...

 

...As your "visual use" of the Korg DTR-100 with the shorting plug that I suggested earlier (that electrically "re-creates" a muted footswitch) should work just fine.

 

The old thread you asked about has been archived here: http://line6.com/sup...ew/thread/39527

 

To my mind, the most economical way to go the "backwards connected" DI route that I believe renebrenon has suggested there would be to use something like this http://www.sweetwate...il/SDirectPlus/ , with its "Earth Lift" button engaged.

 

That would involve your G90 receiver's XL output being connected to the DI box via a female to female XL cable, with the subsequent (nominally "input to input", but definitely earth-isolating) use of a standard jack to jack guitar cable to carry the isolated signal from either of the DI's (nominally "Input") jack sockets to the input of your amplifier. 


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#17 Rob-Roy

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:21 AM

Ron: Hello, it's acting little bit funny. I also tried to plug footswitch to KORG output and what happened? G90 was muting OK but KORG lost it's ability to tune guitar. I tried all possible cable situations and none of them worked so I guess the D.I. is my last chance.

 

Thanks for link to the other topic. User renebrnon is from Czech Republic, same as me so I've sent him personal message and I hope he will reply. I will inform you about further development.


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#18 RonMarton

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 11:37 AM

 ...KORG lost it's ability to tune guitar...

 

I'm hoping, Rob-Roy, that it is just dirt (or lack of "exercise") on the footswitch jack that has "defeated" your DTR-100 ...and NOT that it has died from simply being too old !

 

I think it is very unlikely that external things (like a DI box) will revive it.

 

Other than being sent to a technician for repair, we may find that "exercising" and cleaning the footswitch socket will fix it.

 

I would suggest that we try repeatedly plugging and unplugging a standard guitar jack plug into that footswitch socket in an effort to "clear" whatever may (just possibly) be impeding its correct "make and break" action.

 

In the event that the above "exercise" DOES clear the fault, I'd then be fairly confident we could make that "cleaning job" a permanent fix by VERY CAREFULLY applying a few drops of something like this http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top as a "line" along the "spine" of a "dummy" guitar jack.

 

Subsequently and repeatedly inserting and rotating that "wet" jack plug will then carry a minuscule amount of cleaning fluid in to where it can do its job.

 

Having done that, we'd then finish up by repeating the process with an equally tiny amount of a kerosene-based moisture excluding lubricant, such as this one http://www.amazon.co.../dp/B0083V8F7I/.

 

I have my fingers crossed, my friend !


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