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New Competitor: Gibson's Lpx


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#1 LarryLion

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:45 AM

Some pretty cool sounds out of this thing.  HEFTY price tag, though!

 

http://www2.gibson.c...on-USA/LPX.aspx


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#2 phil_m

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:39 AM

I don't understand Gibson's insistence on putting effects in these guitars. Who really wants that?

 

O, yeah, that's right... :D :P

 


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#3 LarryLion

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:50 AM

Forget the effects - and the Robo Tuners - listen to the simulation clips.  Pretty darned good.  Line 6 engineers, I'm really looking forward to Ver. 2.0 now !


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#4 clay-man

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 12:38 PM

Firebird X was a major flop. A LP version seems nicer, but it's probably the same awful price and electronics.

 

When it comes to modeling, I believe modeling is getting a variety of features for a cheap price, an affordable alternative compared to buying all the real equipment that it represents.

 

The Firebird X was like 4-5k new. That is atrocious. It is against what I believe modeling is to stand for.

 

The tonality of it is pretty poor as well. The design is awful, and I believe the finish on the guitars is poorly done if I remember people complaining about it.

The excessive amount of controls is protruding as well.

 

Fender got it pretty right when they teamed up with Roland, but Gibson, needs to overhaul their idea.


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#5 stevekc

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 06:48 PM

Been there done that
http://www.vguitarfo...=downfile&id=23

Gibson Thinks running coil split pickups into an onboard internal graphic EQ = Variax Competitor - NOT!!
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#6 Tboneous

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 05:46 AM

I don't understand Gibson's insistence on putting effects in these guitars. Who really wants that?

 

O, yeah, that's right... :D :P

:lol:


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#7 Inerzia

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:29 PM

Competitor? Hardly...
Every now and then the big guitar companies come up with something as embarrassing as this LPX thing,

which only shows that they have no clue what people are looking for and they're better off doing what they do best.
Variaxes are not perfect, but the approach used is still the best, not to mention the integration with other L6 products


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#8 clay-man

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 04:42 PM

Competitor? Hardly...
Every now and then the big guitar companies come up with something as embarrassing as this LPX thing,

which only shows that they have no clue what people are looking for and they're better off doing what they do best.
Variaxes are not perfect, but the approach used is still the best, not to mention the integration with other L6 products

 

Their approach is remarkable. They know what guitarists want, and the Variax was executed amazingly.

I can't stop pointing out how smart it was of Line 6 to use piezos, since piezos have a massively broad, flat frequency response compared to mag pickups.

 

Before a mag pickup, comes the exact sound of your strings without any pickups or anything else coloring the sound. You want to record exactly how your strings sound when they're being played. A piezo captures the string's nuances and natural sound the closest compared to any other pickups.

 

You basically pretend that raw piezo input is exactly your strings, and that the processor is your pickups and body/guitar emulation.

 

 

Everyone didn't like the Firebird X, so I don't understand why they're pushing for a rehash.

They need to overhaul their guitar and take their heads out of the anti-digtal mindset. It's such a cliche thing to say analog is superior to digital. It all depends on the execution, not whether it's digital or analog.

 

That guy running Gibson is pretty stubborn. I love their normal guitars, but that guy needs to stop forcing the company to do bad choices like this.


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#9 jefflynyrd

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:52 AM

New competitor??? That's a ROTFLMFAO joke! They are going for $5,000 american dollars... My JTV would probably kick its ars at less than 1/4 of that price!


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#10 LarryLion

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 11:50 AM

Their approach is remarkable. They know what guitarists want, and the Variax was executed amazingly.

I can't stop pointing out how smart it was of Line 6 to use piezos, since piezos have a massively broad, flat frequency response compared to mag pickups.

 

Before a mag pickup, comes the exact sound of your strings without any pickups or anything else coloring the sound. You want to record exactly how your strings sound when they're being played. A piezo captures the string's nuances and natural sound the closest compared to any other pickups.

 

You basically pretend that raw piezo input is exactly your strings, and that the processor is your pickups and body/guitar emulation.

 

 

Everyone didn't like the Firebird X, so I don't understand why they're pushing for a rehash.

They need to overhaul their guitar and take their heads out of the anti-digtal mindset. It's such a cliche thing to say analog is superior to digital. It all depends on the execution, not whether it's digital or analog.

 

That guy running Gibson is pretty stubborn. I love their normal guitars, but that guy needs to stop forcing the company to do bad choices like this.

 

Clay-man, you obviously did not read the LPX specs:  it has a piezo-loaded bridge. That's the same approach used by Line6 for the emulations.

 

To all of you - listen to the clips, and stop kidding yourselves.  The available Gibson guitar emulations are a lot better sounding than that of the JTV, across the board. Are they doctored? - maybe, but then so are the Line6 demos - I've never been able to replicate the marketing blurb clips on a JTV 69.

 

The JTV is exactly what you pay for: a cheap solution. Are they competitors?  At the technology level, definitely, although the Gibson approach to alternate tunings is crappy (robo-tuners).  The magnetic side of the LPX will be better, since just about anything is better than the garbage mag pickups on a stock JTV, and the classic '57 humbucker is hard to beat. The JTV-US prices are crazy, there I think the street prices of the LPX will be about the same.  Wait for the LPX to come out in "Epiphone" version (it will), and I'll wager that price will be on a par with the Korean JTV's, so price will not be an issue, for all models.

 

All in all, I think the LPX is a serious competitor, for as long as Line6 lags with the current (crappy) guitar simulations.  As for quality and build, if you guys have ever owned a Gibson USA product, you know that they are well made.  Cannot say the same for the JTV, unfortunately.

 

Anyone ever checked on the street prices of used JTV's?  That's always a good bellwether of real value.  My research tells me that a one-year old JTV drops about 40% in value (not including taxes).  I'll bet Gibson won't have that problem.


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2012 Line 6 JTV-69

Plus lots of Tele's, Gretsches,

Mesa Boogie amps, Fender Blues Jr.,

... and lots of acoustic stuff


#11 phil_m

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 12:27 PM

To all of you - listen to the clips, and stop kidding yourselves.  The available Gibson guitar emulations are a lot better sounding than that of the JTV, across the board. Are they doctored? - maybe, but then so are the Line6 demos - I've never been able to replicate the marketing blurb clips on a JTV 69.

 

I did listen to the clips and wasn't that impressed, honestly. But, hey, if people like it, that's fine. I just didn't hear anything all that remarkable. It seems to me that Gibson has been messing with guitars with digital outputs for quite a long time now. I don't know if people remember, but back in 1999, Gibson introduced a system called MaGIC that was supposed to revolutionize electric guitar. It never went anywhere. I don't hate Gibson, but for whatever reason they just seem to have trouble getting it together when it comes to technology-driven stuff. I imagine it may come down to getting the right talent to work for them.

 

Also, don't forget, Line 6 is introducing the HD Variax models very soon. All I can say is that they will be game-changers.


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#12 jayson2

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 03:24 PM

 
Also, don't forget, Line 6 is introducing the HD Variax models very soon. All I can say is that they will be game-changers.


That's a bit of a bold statement! Guess us regular peons just have to wait for Line 6 to get their dung together and release the upgrade! :-)

Cheers,

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#13 brue58ski

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 03:28 PM

Also, don't forget, Line 6 is introducing the HD Variax models very soon. All I can say is that they will be game-changers.

 

Gafffaflabbaflllsteranndkksl!!!  Huh?!?! What?!?! I know they semi announced a JTV upgrade and then pulled back on it but I didn't know they were HD Variax models.  I'm assuming that means they are redoing the models from the ground up like they did the amps.  Is that true?


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#14 TheRealZap

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 03:34 PM

:)

 

Gafffaflabbaflllsteranndkksl!!!  Huh?!?! What?!?! I know they semi announced a JTV upgrade and then pulled back on it but I didn't know they were HD Variax models.  I'm assuming that means they are redoing the models from the ground up like they did the amps.  Is that true?


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#15 clay-man

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:31 PM

Clay-man, you obviously did not read the LPX specs:  it has a piezo-loaded bridge. That's the same approach used by Line6 for the emulations.

 

To all of you - listen to the clips, and stop kidding yourselves.  The available Gibson guitar emulations are a lot better sounding than that of the JTV, across the board. Are they doctored? - maybe, but then so are the Line6 demos - I've never been able to replicate the marketing blurb clips on a JTV 69.

 

The JTV is exactly what you pay for: a cheap solution. Are they competitors?  At the technology level, definitely, although the Gibson approach to alternate tunings is crappy (robo-tuners).  The magnetic side of the LPX will be better, since just about anything is better than the garbage mag pickups on a stock JTV, and the classic '57 humbucker is hard to beat. The JTV-US prices are crazy, there I think the street prices of the LPX will be about the same.  Wait for the LPX to come out in "Epiphone" version (it will), and I'll wager that price will be on a par with the Korean JTV's, so price will not be an issue, for all models.

 

All in all, I think the LPX is a serious competitor, for as long as Line6 lags with the current (crappy) guitar simulations.  As for quality and build, if you guys have ever owned a Gibson USA product, you know that they are well made.  Cannot say the same for the JTV, unfortunately.

 

Anyone ever checked on the street prices of used JTV's?  That's always a good bellwether of real value.  My research tells me that a one-year old JTV drops about 40% in value (not including taxes).  I'll bet Gibson won't have that problem.

 

Woah woah man. I know they have Piezos, but last I heard, they're only using the piezos to emulate the acoustic sound, now the guitar sound.

I believe they're using the mini humbuckers for all electric sounds, they're just highly configurable, like splitting, series or parallel.

 

The problem I have with the X series is that it costs way too much for what it is, and when it comes to a versatile guitar, I wanted a telecaster and strat sound at the same time, so the Variax was obviously what I needed to get. 

The LPX doesn't specifically replicate guitars.


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#16 brue58ski

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 01:35 AM

Well I guess the bottom line is get what you want.  I am incredibly happy with my Variax.  I've compared it to as many of the real things that I can find and have been very impressed (as have the owners of those guitars) What ever differences there are I can attribute to not every guitar being exactly the same (all of the guitars I used for comparison were fairly new, no "vintage" guitars.)  The Variax works great for me and the Gibson isn't as flexible and costs too much for what you get in my opinion.


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#17 snhirsch

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:03 AM

Also, don't forget, Line 6 is introducing the HD Variax models very soon. All I can say is that they will be game-changers.

 

If it turns out that the HD upgrade has morphed into "buy a new guitar", I'm going to be a bit miffed.  Can you please clarify that statement? 


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#18 TheRealZap

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:15 AM

The 2.0 (HD) upgrade was announced last year at winter NAMM, and it applies to the current guitars, no new guitars were announced.

 

If it turns out that the HD upgrade has morphed into "buy a new guitar", I'm going to be a bit miffed.  Can you please clarify that statement? 


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#19 phil_m

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:42 AM

Yeah, what Zap said... By "models" I was referring to the digital models within the Variax itself. They are all going to be upgraded to HD models with the 2.0 update. So if you have a JTV at the present, the update will give you access to the new models through a free firmware upgrade.


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#20 snhirsch

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:51 AM

Yeah, what Zap said... By "models" I was referring to the digital models within the Variax itself. They are all going to be upgraded to HD models with the 2.0 update. So if you have a JTV at the present, the update will give you access to the new models through a free firmware upgrade.

 

Ok, thanks for clarifying!  I thought that was what the plan was, but the overloaded use of "models" threw me off.  It would be nice if that upgrade had seen the light of day by now, but as the mantra goes:  "Release no software before its time!  And, perhaps not even then...".


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40 years of Rock-n-Roll and proud of it!

 

PRS Custom 24 (1990) w/ GK-3 Hex PU

James Tyler Variax JTV-69(k) w/ Strat Neck

Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth

QSC K10 FRFR

 


#21 johnnyayyy

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:30 AM

As for quality and build, if you guys have ever owned a Gibson USA product, you know that they are well made. Cannot say the same for the JTV, unfortunately.

Owned a Gibson Marauder, that wasn't too good... I have a Les Paul studio right now that I would not call great... I have owned maybe 10 US made Gibson guitars in the past (are there non-US Gibsons?), some were excellent instruments and some were not - quality seems to vary year to year and model to model.

I am betting that new LPX will be well made - it better be for $5000.

Your sig indicates you own a JTV-69 - is it the American or the Korean version? I have seen complaints about the quality of the Korean JTVs in these forums but have never seen or heard a negative word about the US version, if you are comparing JTVs to a $5000 Gibson LPX surely you would only use the US made JTV for reference, yes? I mean, no one would compare the build quality of a Korean made JTV-69 that one can currently purchase brand spanking new for under $1300 all in to a US made instrument costing roughly 4 times the price, right?

Anyone ever checked on the street prices of used JTV's? That's always a good bellwether of real value. My research tells me that a one-year old JTV drops about 40% in value (not including taxes). I'll bet Gibson won't have that problem.

My research tells me you need to do a little more research. I have checked the street prices of used JTVs constantly for the last year+, I have been waiting for them to come down.

Currently I can purchase a new JTV 59 online from an authorized dealer for $1199.99, no tax, free shipping, $1199.99 final price.

Used JTV59s are currently selling on Ebay for $860 -1050.

If I buy a new JTV59 today for $1199.99 and sell it in one year for the current ebay low price of $860 I have lost $339.99, or around 28%. If it sells for the current ebay high going price of $1050 I have lost $149.99, around 12.5% according to my calculations (my math is a bit rusty, feel free to correct me if I forgot to carry a 2 or something).

Source: http://www.ebay.com/... variax&_sop=15

My JTV story: Last month I purchased a brand new non-Floyd JTV89 from Musiciansfriend.com for $580+tax(you did say we were excluding tax for these comparisons, right?).

Currently used non-Floyd JTV89s are selling on ebay for $653 to $899.

If in one year I sell my non-Floyd JTV89 for the current ebay low price of $653 I will have made a profit of $73, or around 12.6%

And if my JTV happens to sell for the higher current ebay used price of $899 I will have made a profit of $319, around 55%

Source: http://www.ebay.com/...jtv-89&_sacat=0

(rubbing my eyes is disbelief: can those numbers be accurate? I could potentially make a profit of 55% by reselling my new JTV89? ... wow...not gonna sell tho, I really do love the thing - and once the 2.0 firmware is realeased I have a feeling I will never want to sell)

And to top it all off, when I purchased the JTV I received a gift card for $300 from Musiciansfriend.com. i will be using that gift card to purchase something I have found I can resell on ebay for slightly more than what I will be paying at musiciansfriend (not gonna say what it is, don't want someone else buying them all up and spoiling it for me hahaha).

I realize that if i wait too long to resell my JTV I will likely lose some money on it, I saw what happened to the resale prices of the original Variaxes when the JTVs became available.

Hmmm, I also seem to recall Variax 700s going for $699 new at Sweetwater a while back, and it looks like theyare STILL selling used for $442 to $665 (!) after all this time, so maybe if I keep my JTV for 10 years then sell it I won't lose any money after all :)

Do a little more research and you will find even the lowly Variax 300 is still selling used for around the same amount of money they were going for at Guitar Center a few years ago brand new.

Variax 700 used price source: http://www.ebay.com/...2&_skc=50&rt=nc

I have a feeling that anyone who buys a Gibson LPX is either going to keep it forever or face losing a HUGE amount of money if they ever try to resell it (eh, same with the US made JTVs.

Source: http://www.ebay.com/...kw=gibson robot

Likely reason Gibson high tech guitars are generally flops:

1. Gibson guitars in general appeal to conservative/traditional minded guitarists

2. Gibson high tech guitars are generally poorly executed

Okay, I am done generalizing ;)

Also, you might want to check out the amount a new Gibson guitar depreciates the second you "drive it off the lot" - you will find a number a lot closer to that 40% claim you are making on the used JTVs-

Gibson "new" prices: http://www.musicians...urrencyCode=USD

Gibson "one year old used" prices: http://www.ebay.com/...piphone&_sop=15


All that said... HEY LOOK EVERYBODY! Sweetwater has the new LPX in stock!

http://www.sweetwate...CFS3hQgoda1YAjQ

Oooh, street price is only $2999! Hmmm... is the top arched? Looks flat. Maybe if it had binding it would look better... needs neck binding too... and some cool fret markers... also, that headstock looks pretty boring/homely (eh, about as homely as the one on my new JTV89) ... I DO love the look of the 3 pickups, very sexy... and the flame top looks pretty good. Wow, look at that crazy rear cavity cover...

If I may paraphrase a comment Variax Transplant LEGEND MidiRose made regarding the Variax 700 a few years back, "The Gibson LPX is a $700 guitar masquerading as a $3000 guitar" - to me the LPX looks like the cheapest Gibson Les Paul Special would look with the addition of some cool looking pickups, a FotoFlame top (I realize the flame on the top is probably real), and some extra cluttery knobs thrown haphazardly around the body.

The sounds on the Gibson site are pretty good. if they ever make a cheaper version (doubtful) I might be interested in picking one up, depends on how satisfying the JTV 2.0 update is.

the comments on that page are hilarious/sad/as expected.

I love the guy who just keeps repeating "I like it" and posting this crazy link to a Firebird X demo:

 

 

 

 

Whew, that thing does not sound too good in the real world. Hilariously, the guitar has robotic tuning and the guy plays and it sounds SOOOOOO out of tune :D maybe he needs to try the Peavey AT-200, that might work a little better for him....

Wait... it that a gag/hoax/joke video...? Or maybe..OH... MY ... GOD... did a competing manufacturer create/post that vid to intentionally make Gibson look bad? Very naughty...

WOW, I am watching the whole thing and cringing... it just gets funnier and funnier. Gibson should pay that guy to remove the vid from the internet...

Hmmm, on the plus side, looking at the vid I see the Firebird X is not quite so amazingly hideous from far away with someone playing it as it is in Gibson publicity pics. Kinda looks like a cheapo Chinese Jaguar knockoff.


Yeesh, I just took a look at the Chappers/Anderton vid here:

 

 

 

Look at the waviness in the finish when he moves that thing around in the light... it should look like a mirror but it looks more like a wrinkly piece of plastic, like it was done by someone with my level of woodworking/finishing skill (I am a shite woodworker/painter). So much for Gibson build quality... sounds are better in the Chappers vid than the Copenhagen/Roger Lewis/Beardman vid.. couple of nice sounds, Chappers. I checked out the Guitarist Magazine vid here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDGlW5YRKjo

 

some decent sounds there... haha, at the summary the reviewer says, "looks a little bit like a squashed bowling ball" and gives it a pass. As I recall this same guy raved over the JTV when it came out... Chappers said he was keeping the Korean JTV he demoed in the vid for his own, he didn't seem too impressed with the Firebird X and I have never seen him say he was keeping any of the other guitars he has demoed on Youtube, so:advantage Line 6.

I don't understand Gibson's insistence on putting effects in these guitars. Who really wants that?

Answer: ME! i would love to take a guitar to a gig or to the studio and plug it in and have a great sound, no amp or pedals needed. If all those sounds on the Gibson site are coming straight from the guitar with nothing added I am quite impressed.

So, Gibson LPX - not as hideous as the Firebird X, sounds pretty good in the clips on the Gibson site, $3000 does not seem as crazy as the $5000 I thought is was going to be...

JTV competitor? For the US version, probably. For the current JTV Korean version, nah, not at that price. I doubt Gibson will make or sell many of these, they are calling it a "limited edition".

I think the only competition the Korean JTVs have at the moment is Peavey AT-200 -I have checked it out and so far I am passing, it still needs some work IMO...

Now if Gibson ever puts out a $1000 Epi version or puts this tech into a nicer guitar (I would love to have a LP Custom or Standard like this) things could get pretty interesting pretty quickly and I would say it could give L6 a real run for its money, I would love that! Competition breeds "betterness" :D BRING IT ON!


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#22 phil_m

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 12:31 PM

Gibson should pay that guy to remove the vid from the internet...

Actually, if there was a fund to donate to that would go towards that cause, I might donate... I mean I didn't watch the whole thing, but at no part that I did watch was the guy actually in tune. Shameful, really... The guitar itself can't be to blame for having someone who doesn't know what he's doing playing it.


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#23 johnnyayyy

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 01:13 PM

drops about 40% in value (not including taxes). I'll bet Gibson won't have that problem.

I'll take that bet:

http://www.ebay.com/...gibson&_sacat=0

Original list was $5570, street price was $3999, currently selling used for a high of $2295 to a low of $1776, a loss of $1704 to $2243 upon resale (42.7% to 56%)

There is your "bellwether of real value"

Pay up buddy :lol:

IMHO a Gibson hi tech guitar is a terrible investment at this point in history, maybe this will change in the future but going back to the Moog RD guitars up through the Robots and the Xs I really doubt it.

Man, regular old Gibson Firebirds keep popping up in my search results... the reverse version sure is sexy looking, makes me think i ought to get myself one...

http://www.ebay.com/...=item3a81709229


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#24 johnnyayyy

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:10 PM

I don't understand Gibson's insistence on putting effects in these guitars. Who really wants that?

I was recording today and realized something very cool about what Gibson has done there, they have put together the total sound: THIS pickup plus THIS distortion plus THIS delay = Rockabilly Tone, THIS pickup plus THIS distortion plus THIS delay = 70s Glam Rock Tone, Blues Tone, Jazz Tone, etc.

Line 6 could learn something from this... having some useable great sounding presets would help them sell guitars and amp modelers and help avoid people giving up in frustration and returning products when they couldn't get a decent tone out of their new gear - I have read about this happening to people over and over in these forums.

Here is a vid that I found useful, Line 6 should hire someone like this guy - he has presets available on Customtone under the name Jake Cloudchair that are set up to get the same tones from this vid with Variax/HD combo - would love to see more vids with accompanying downloadable tones like this, some surf, some metal etc. pre set up for use with specific Variax models:

 

 


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#25 clay-man

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:13 AM

I was recording today and realized something very cool about what Gibson has done there, they have put together the total sound: THIS pickup plus THIS distortion plus THIS delay = Rockabilly Tone, THIS pickup plus THIS distortion plus THIS delay = 70s Glam Rock Tone, Blues Tone, Jazz Tone, etc.

Line 6 could learn something from this... having some useable great sounding presets would help them sell guitars and amp modelers and help avoid people giving up in frustration and returning products when they couldn't get a decent tone out of their new gear - I have read about this happening to people over and over in these forums.

Here is a vid that I found useful, Line 6 should hire someone like this guy - he has presets available on Customtone under the name Jake Cloudchair that are set up to get the same tones from this vid with Variax/HD combo - would love to see more vids with accompanying downloadable tones like this, some surf, some metal etc. pre set up for use with specific Variax models:

 

 

 

But the thing is, finding the tone yourself is what most people do with regular equipment already.

The Firebird/LP X stuff can pull some decent stuff, sure, but I think putting mediocre hardware into the guitar isn't going to satisfy anyone. 

 

The person shouldn't have to rely on these sub par analog solid state distortion to get their tone. I'm not a big fan of analog solid state distortion. It always sounds really weird. Sometimes it's nice for unique tones (Ex: Big Muff Pi is amazing) but sometimes it sounds like garbage (Ex: BOSS Metal Zone).

It's never really the best with doing tube-sounding distortion.


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#26 johnnyayyy

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 10:27 AM

But the thing is, finding the tone yourself is what most people do with regular equipment already.

The Firebird/LP X stuff can pull some decent stuff, sure, but I think putting mediocre hardware into the guitar isn't going to satisfy anyone. 

 

The person shouldn't have to rely on these sub par analog solid state distortion to get their tone. I'm not a big fan of analog solid state distortion. It always sounds really weird. Sometimes it's nice for unique tones (Ex: Big Muff Pi is amazing) but sometimes it sounds like garbage (Ex: BOSS Metal Zone).

It's never really the best with doing tube-sounding distortion.

 

Hmmmm... I think some people like spending hours and hours tweaking gear trying to find a satisfying tone, and others prefer to just plug in, get a great sound, and play.

 

From what I have seen in these forums I would estimate for every person who enjoys tweaking their Pod HD endlessly in pursuit of perfect tone there are maybe 100 people who just want to download Lincoln Brewster's/John Petrucci's/EVH etc. tones and play their guitar. Downloadable premade tones are a huge selling point for modeling devices for many people, whether to use as is or as a starting point for a more personalized tone. The problem is the person who downloads the tone is usually not playing the some guitar with the same pickups/selector position and the same playback/monitor/amp as the person who created the tone, which ends up with the downloader havinbg a final tone that sounds nothing like what the original uploader was hearing.

 

IMO what Gibson got right with the Firebird X/LPX is they have eliminated all of the variables - they have a preset called "Rockabilly", you plug the guitar into the recorder and play a rockabilly riff and it sounds like Scotty Moore's guitar/effects/amp from the 50s. This could likely be pieced together with a Variax and a Pod HD just as effectively with many hours of work by someone who knows what they are doing and is familiar with Scotty Moore's choice of guitar/effects/amp model and settings, BUT... so far I have not heard a "Rockabilly" tone from a Variax/Pod HD that comes close to sounding as good as the clip on the Gibson site. The "Jazz" and "Blues" clips also sound better to me than any Jazz or Blues tones I have heard from a Variax/Pod combo - don't care if it is analog solid state distortion or how they are getting the sound, the point for me is IT SOUNDS REALLY GOOD.

 

The LPX "Metal" clip sounds horrid to my ears, so maybe the LPX approach will not work for everything. Or maybe given time someone will create better sounding metal tones for the LPX - Gibson has a download site similar to Customtone where people can share their own tones and tweaks, I am sure that (like L6 Customtone) there will be tons of terrible sounding uploads and some really great ones, BUT whatever happens with their download site IMO a majority of the presets on the LPX already sound great and useable in real-world music making situations right out of the box which is more than I can say for my Pod HD500/Variax combo - I have created functional rockabiily/jazz/blues/metal tones through a combination of downloading and hours and hours of tweaking and experimenting but I would have much preferred to plug in and get lots and lots of great tones right off the bat... that is how it works for me with "real" guitars amps and effects, and that would seem to be the way it works with the Gibson LPX (tho admittedly I have never seen or played a Gibson LPX in real life and am basing this assessment solely on my impressions of the clips on their website).


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#27 phil_m

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 10:56 AM

From what I have seen in these forums I would estimate for every person who enjoys tweaking their Pod HD endlessly in pursuit of perfect tone there are maybe 100 people who just want to download Lincoln Brewster's/John Petrucci's/EVH etc. tones and play their guitar. Downloadable premade tones are a huge selling point for modeling devices for many people, whether to use as is or as a starting point for a more personalized tone.

 

I suppose that's true to a large extent. I've always been surprised at how many people I see who buy multi-fx units or modelers and never use anything on them besides the factory presets. I've actually known people that have them who would never even go online to download tones. Personally, I don't enjoy tweaking for hours, but I also don't have much of interest in trying to sound exactly like other players. I like to know how to get in the ballpark, but other than that, I'm fine if I don't match the tone exactly of the original recording.
 

IMO what Gibson got right with the Firebird X/LPX is they have eliminated all of the variables - they have a preset called "Rockabilly", you plug the guitar into the recorder and play a rockabilly riff and it sounds like Scotty Moore's guitar/effects/amp from the 50s.

Good point, I suppose. The one reason I mentioned earlier about having effects on the guitar being sort of silly is that it just seems like it would be totally awkward to try and change effects on the fly while playing live. The reason floor-based pedals became the standard for guitar effects is that it is relatively easy to hit a switch to turn an effect on or off while playing compared to having to do something with your hands.


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#28 johnnyayyy

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:10 AM

Good point, I suppose. The one reason I mentioned earlier about having effects on the guitar being sort of silly is that it just seems like it would be totally awkward to try and change effects on the fly while playing live. The reason floor-based pedals became the standard for guitar effects is that it is relatively easy to hit a switch to turn an effect on or off while playing compared to having to do something with your hands.

 

I hate feeling like I am defending/promoting a product that is (mostly) unappealing to me, but...

 

Gibson is way ahead of you (the complete rig is shown in the vid here ):

 

"What if you want a more traditional way to control the effects? Gibson has you covered. The Les Paul X includes a Bluetooth footswitch and expression pedal, which lets you wirelessly change effects presets and manipulate parameters in realtime. You get the feel and convenience of playing with your pedalboard, plus the benefit of the low-noise audio engine driving your effects. Of course, the Les Paul X will sound great through your existing effects too."


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#29 phil_m

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:15 AM

"What if you want a more traditional way to control the effects? Gibson has you covered. The Les Paul X includes a Bluetooth footswitch and expression pedal, which lets you wirelessly change effects presets and manipulate parameters in realtime. You get the feel and convenience of playing with your pedalboard, plus the benefit of the low-noise audio engine driving your effects. Of course, the Les Paul X will sound great through your existing effects too."

 

Well, what do you know? At least they're showing some foresight. I still don't like it... :P


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#30 johnnyayyy

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:58 PM

Well, what do you know? At least they're showing some foresight. I still don't like it... :P

 

:lol:

 

If they weren't so ridiculously hideous I would probably pick up a used $2000 Firebird X on Ebay just to give it a good workout (hmmm, I could just buy one and play with it for a while and resell it later I suppose), maybe in a few years when they drop below $1000 I will pick one up and do a transplant. Oooh, Firebird X guts transplanted into my JTV, that would be pretty crazy, huh?

 

Honestly, if they had just put the electronics into a regular reverse Firebird or Les Paul Standard or Custom I think I would be seriously G.A.S.sing for one right about now and would probably be willing to pay whatever they cost new (I assume a Les Paul Custom with the X electronics would be around twice the street price of the no-frills LPX) , guaranteed huge financial losses upon resale be damned.


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#31 clay-man

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 04:50 PM

It really wouldn't be so bad if it didn't have double atrocity with the atrocious price and atrocious lumpy finish.

 

Maybe people want to be able to plug and play, but I still don't see why not just pick up a good guitar that's 1/4 the price and search the tone you're looking for on the internet and just get that equipment and dial it in.


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#32 johnnyayyy

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:30 PM

I still don't see why not just pick up a good guitar that's 1/4 the price and search the tone you're looking for on the internet and just get that equipment and dial it in.

 

That will work for people who want one, maybe two good sounds - I think the LPX and JTV (the subject of this forum) are designed to appeal to people who want access to all the sounds. I want a great metal tone and a great blues tone and a great rockabilly tone and a great jazz tone and a great country tone and and and. etc. etc...

 

I don't know of one guitar/amp combo that will sound good for all the different kinds of music I play, I would need 20 guitars and 20 amps on hand when I am recording. That is where the JTV/HD really work nicely for me at the moment and where I see potential/certain advantages in the Gibson tech stuff.


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#33 clay-man

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 03:36 AM

That will work for people who want one, maybe two good sounds - I think the LPX and JTV (the subject of this forum) are designed to appeal to people who want access to all the sounds. I want a great metal tone and a great blues tone and a great rockabilly tone and a great jazz tone and a great country tone and and and. etc. etc...

 

I don't know of one guitar/amp combo that will sound good for all the different kinds of music I play, I would need 20 guitars and 20 amps on hand when I am recording. That is where the JTV/HD really work nicely for me at the moment and where I see potential/certain advantages in the Gibson tech stuff.

 

That's why I use amp modeling though. Present modeling technology sounds absolutely amazing. I love messing around in Guitar Rig and Amplitube. I literally can get amazing tones without spending thousands.

 

I got a Variax because I couldn't decide which single coil instrument to get, a strat or a tele. I saw Dustin Kensrue of Thrice sporting a Variax transplant and instantly wanted one, I got just enough money to buy an old 600 and I've been satisfied since.

The alternate tunings are amazing too, because I switch between a LOT of tunings constantly, so now I can do that without having to buy a bunch of guitars for thousands of dollars.


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#34 johnnyayyy

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 11:02 AM

I got a Variax because I couldn't decide which single coil instrument to get, a strat or a tele. I saw Dustin Kensrue of Thrice sporting a Variax transplant and instantly wanted one, I got just enough money to buy an old 600 and I've been satisfied since.

The alternate tunings are amazing too, because I switch between a LOT of tunings constantly, so now I can do that without having to buy a bunch of guitars for thousands of dollars.

 

We are in agreement.

 

I  bought my first Variax because I needed the acoustic and banjo sounds, but it ended up completely changing my mind on electric guitars:

 

For 20 years my main guitars were Teles and Gretsches, all my heroes played them, all those great recorded sounds were exactly what I wanted to sound like.

 

But when I started going through all the modeled guitars in my Variax and comparing them I found the Spank/Stratocaster bridge position worked much better for my tone and playing on many many things than either my Teles or my Gretsches ever had. I had never cared about Strats, thought they were boring and common and no guitarist I liked was ever a Strat guy - I had tried a bunch of them over the years and they always sounded bad (due I am sure to me trying to play things on them that would be better suited to other guitars), I bought and sold lots of them as a lucrative part time job, but I never considered using a Stratocaster live or for recording until I experimented with the Spank 1 setting on the Variax, trying it through every amp sim in my HD500.

 

Now I LOVE the Stratocaster sound! Thanks Line 6! :D The Strat bridge pickup is my go-to rhythm tone for the recordings I am working on at the moment, and the Variax has made me obsessed with buying more Strats - I currently own 4, all purchased within the last few weeks in search of "the one" that sounds as good as the simulation in my JTV and is as playable as the JTV. I am getting close, the first one I bought was a Mexi that played great but had horrible sounding ceramic pickups, I ordered some Fender Custom Shop pickups to replace them and while I was waiting for them to show up in the mail I found 3 other Strats on Craigslist, 2 much nicer Mexi lefty's strung righty (thought the reverse angle bridge pickup might be useful for certain things) and a really nice older USA version that I am loving at the moment.

 

i will be selling all but one of the Strats, gonna try the custom pickups in all of them and keep the one that I like best (probably the US one, it is a pretty nice guitar). I still am not physically attracted to Strats and still think they are boring and common but at the moment they are really doing the trick for me tone-wise.

 

I think at some point I will get myself a custom made thinline Strat, double bound body, similar to the Pawn Shop 72 model but with single coils - that thing is neither boring nor common... *drool*  maybe I will just get one of those and swap out the pickups... and add a Bigsby... and, and, and...

 

9540_Fender_Pawn_Shop_72_Surf_Green_T004


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#35 dspellman

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:21 PM

Clay-man, you obviously did not read the LPX specs:  it has a piezo-loaded bridge. That's the same approach used by Line6 for the emulations.

 

To all of you - listen to the clips, and stop kidding yourselves.  The available Gibson guitar emulations are a lot better sounding than that of the JTV, across the board. Are they doctored? - maybe, but then so are the Line6 demos - I've never been able to replicate the marketing blurb clips on a JTV 69.

 

The JTV is exactly what you pay for: a cheap solution. Are they competitors?  At the technology level, definitely, although the Gibson approach to alternate tunings is crappy (robo-tuners).  The magnetic side of the LPX will be better, since just about anything is better than the garbage mag pickups on a stock JTV, and the classic '57 humbucker is hard to beat.

 

The piezos in the LPX add an acoustic-like emulation to the guitar the same as similar piezos have done to other guitars, nothing more. The effects package is very much like that on the $119 Alesis X Guitar, except not as comprehensive. Take a look at that guitar's specs and then tell me the Gibson betters them. Nothing very new there; onboard FX have been done since the late '60's. With the Firebird X, Gibson promised an "App Store" like the Apple version, for the "thousands of developers" who were just dying to take advantage of the DSP in the guitar. They've since dropped the idea for lack of interest. The available Gibson "emulations" are done with a bit of EQ and the use of serial/parallel/singlecoil and phase changing. This is lifted from the early '70's L6S designed by Bill Lawrence. "New technology?" "Ground breaking?" Hardly. Alternate tunings are highly limited and barely usable on the TronicalTune/MinETume. The LPX is a tarted-up Studio with about half the technology of a $99 Korg Pandora Mini.Look it up and tell me it's not so.

 

The LPX is a non-starter by a company that wouldn't know technology if its robot-controlled teeth bit it in the butt. Gibson has no clue how to support that technology (HOW long did it take to get the last Dork Star purchaser the complete kit he was promised?) and no means to develop anything new. It would stick a battery powered can opener on a guitar if it thought it might make a buck, but it has to wait for an electric-powered can opener salesman to walk through the door before it would generate the idea. The LPX is a hack -- an amateurish rehash of a bad idea that had the industry laughing at them the last time they presented it in a different guitar.


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#36 clay-man

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:36 AM

The piezos in the LPX add an acoustic-like emulation to the guitar the same as similar piezos have done to other guitars, nothing more. The effects package is very much like that on the $119 Alesis X Guitar, except not as comprehensive. Take a look at that guitar's specs and then tell me the Gibson betters them. Nothing very new there; onboard FX have been done since the late '60's. With the Firebird X, Gibson promised an "App Store" like the Apple version, for the "thousands of developers" who were just dying to take advantage of the DSP in the guitar. They've since dropped the idea for lack of interest. The available Gibson "emulations" are done with a bit of EQ and the use of serial/parallel/singlecoil and phase changing. This is lifted from the early '70's L6S designed by Bill Lawrence. "New technology?" "Ground breaking?" Hardly. Alternate tunings are highly limited and barely usable on the TronicalTune/MinETume. The LPX is a tarted-up Studio with about half the technology of a $99 Korg Pandora Mini.Look it up and tell me it's not so.

 

The LPX is a non-starter by a company that wouldn't know technology if its robot-controlled teeth bit it in the butt. Gibson has no clue how to support that technology (HOW long did it take to get the last Dork Star purchaser the complete kit he was promised?) and no means to develop anything new. It would stick a battery powered can opener on a guitar if it thought it might make a buck, but it has to wait for an electric-powered can opener salesman to walk through the door before it would generate the idea. The LPX is a hack -- an amateurish rehash of a bad idea that had the industry laughing at them the last time they presented it in a different guitar.

 

Thank you. Spot on. Nothing electric guitar-wise is being emulated through the piezos. It's being used for the acoustic sounds. 

The guitar settings are all pickup configurations with post EQ effects. Nothing is really being modeled here, just tweaking sounds to get close to some "signature" settings.

 

The Variax's goal is to replicate guitars, not just tweak tones. The people who made it spent their time making algorithms and coding to replicate each guitar sound, not just a bunch of EQs.

 

Either way, LPX IS a hack guitar, and IS a rehash of the firebird X which was an amazing flop.

What they should of done is overhaul the technology, not put the crappy technology into another guitar body.

 

I like how they treat digital like it's a bad thing. It's the EXECUTION, not the path you take to make something.

You make a distortion pedal have really basic solid state circuitry, it'll sound dull,

just the same as if you only use a few lines of code to make a distortion effect on a processor. 

It's the effort and execution.


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#37 LarryLion

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:58 AM

Hmmm ... I seem to have kicked over a hornet's nest here.  Well, I finally got to actually play an LPX, and I have to admit that the web-based blurb is very misleading.  In a real environment, the LPX does not sound anything like the web soundclips, and, of course the min-Etune system is clumsy, to say  the least. Overall, I'm not impressed with the LPX.

 

Bottom line, the JTV does sound and work better, in the flesh, than the LPX.  I guess the marketing guys at Gibson did their thing with the web samples.

 

As for the JTV value argument earlier in this thread, which prompted quite a bit of discussion: I paid CAD $1,399 for my JTV, before taxes, which (in Canada) meant I laid out around CAD$1,600 for the JTV-69.  Current (Craigslist and eBay) prices here for a used JTV-69 are around CAD$900, hence my "40% drop" statement, which I still stand by.  A Gibson Les Paul has much less % drop in value, here in Canada, all things considered. Also, my Line6 dealer will not take a JTV as a trade-in, but will place a trade-in value on the lowliest LP, Strat or Tele.  There is a message there, and they offer no explanations.

 

Anyhow, apologies all, if I ruffled any feathers.  Looks like I'm stuck with my JTV-69, and eagerly awaiting Line6's firmware update!


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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Plus lots of Tele's, Gretsches,

Mesa Boogie amps, Fender Blues Jr.,

... and lots of acoustic stuff


#38 johnnyayyy

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 09:45 AM

Hmmm ... I seem to have kicked over a hornet's nest here.  Well, I finally got to actually play an LPX, and I have to admit that the web-based blurb is very misleading.  In a real environment, the LPX does not sound anything like the web soundclips, and, of course the min-Etune system is clumsy, to say  the least. Overall, I'm not impressed with the LPX.

 

Bottom line, the JTV does sound and work better, in the flesh, than the LPX.  I guess the marketing guys at Gibson did their thing with the web samples.

 

As for the JTV value argument earlier in this thread, which prompted quite a bit of discussion: I paid CAD $1,399 for my JTV, before taxes, which (in Canada) meant I laid out around CAD$1,600 for the JTV-69.  Current (Craigslist and eBay) prices here for a used JTV-69 are around CAD$900, hence my "40% drop" statement, which I still stand by.  A Gibson Les Paul has much less % drop in value, here in Canada, all things considered. Also, my Line6 dealer will not take a JTV as a trade-in, but will place a trade-in value on the lowliest LP, Strat or Tele.  There is a message there, and they offer no explanations.

 

Anyhow, apologies all, if I ruffled any feathers.  Looks like I'm stuck with my JTV-69, and eagerly awaiting Line6's firmware update!

 

That's too bad, I was hoping for some real competition - it would be good for us end users.

 

I paid CAD $1,399 for my JTV, before taxes, which (in Canada) meant I laid out around CAD$1,600 for the JTV-69.  Current (Craigslist and eBay) prices here for a used JTV-69 are around CAD$900, hence my "40% drop" statement

 

Like Smokey Robinson said, "You better shop around" - tho if buying in Canada to secure a Canadian warranty your options may be limited.

 

Of course if someone pays the highest possible price they are going to lose more on resale - as  I recall people here paid $200 less for that same guitar (JTV69) when they were introduced, and there are still currently plenty of authorized dealers who sell JTV69s for far less than what you paid.

 

Seek and ye shall find.

 

Not to mention the fantastic $699.99 deal on  JTV89's at Sweetwater (I received an email notice today saying they had more Blood Red JTV89s in stock, so if anyone is interested now might be a good time to buy before they sell out again). Ooops, looks like I mentioned it.

A Gibson Les Paul has much less % drop in value

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I thought we were comparing tech guitars to tech guitars/apples to apples...?

 

But since you brought it up, I'll bite :) ...

 

Les Paul Standard new price = more than $2000:

 

http://www.sweetwate...NDk2NzIzMyJdfX0

 

Les Paul Standard used price = considerably less... (around 40%-50% loss):

 

http://www.ebay.com/...le&_sacat=33034

 

 

Les Paul Studio new price = $1400 and up

 

http://www.sweetwate...NDk2NzIzMyJdfX0

 

Les Paul Studio used price = $350 and up (Whew, be prepared for big losses if you ever buy a ne Les Paul Studio!):

 

http://www.ebay.com/...ct&_sacat=33034

 

So... while I agree it FEELS like it SHOULD be true that a Gibson guitar will hold its value, the facts would seem to indicate otherwise. Same with Fender, good luck getting anywhere near what you paid new (for anything, really) when it comes to resale time.

 

 

my Line6 dealer will not take a JTV as a trade-in, but will place a trade-in value on the lowliest LP, Strat or Tele.  There is a message there, and they offer no explanations.

 

I think one possible explanation might be that there is always a market for the lowliest LP, Strat or Tele, while a used JTV (or LPX or Firebird X) is going to appeal to almost no one - at least until the day the first popular guitar hero plays one in a video or is seen with one on a magazine or album cover or publicity still or live (not holding my breath).

 

 

Hmmm ... I seem to have kicked over a hornet's nest here.

 

Anyhow, apologies all, if I ruffled any feathers.  Looks like I'm stuck with my JTV-69, and eagerly awaiting Line6's firmware update!

 

 

I don't think you ruffled any feathers, I think the Firebird X (and now the LPX) inspire strong negative reactions in people. Coudn't let you get away with the misrepresentation of resale values, tho...

 

 

the garbage mag pickups on a stock JTV...Line6 lags with the current (crappy) guitar simulations...  As for quality and build....Cannot say the same for the JTV, unfortunately.

 

Hmmm, maybe that is what you mean by ruffling feathers...? Eh, I doubt anyone is bothered by you trash talking the JTVs, I think we have heard it all at this point. To each his own.

 

Tho I do wonder, if you have a problem with the "crappy guitar simulations", the "garbage pickups" and the "(poor) quality and build)", why in the world did you buy a JTV in the first place?

 

I hope the new firmware is good enough for you, otherwise if the JTV is making you so unhappy maybe you should take your lumps on the price and sell the guitar, lesson learned.

 

You know, if you wait too long to sell (like until the next generation of Variax is introduced) you will probably lose even more money...


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#39 Crusty_Old_Rocker

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 04:34 AM

Just imagine what those robotuners will do to an expensive set in neck over time. I prefer instant alt tuning on the fly without warping the neck and causing metal fatigue in the strings.

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#40 LarryLion

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 09:19 AM

Johnny

 

Your Les Paul Standard used price comparison is, well, a load of crap.  Sure you can get a 1990's LP for $1,300 or less on eBay, but try finding a 2012 LP Standard for much less than $1,900!  That's a couple of hundred dollar drop on the $2K plus price, max.  Same goes for a recent Strat or Tele, they hold value pretty well.  I'm talking about a 2012 JTV-69 dropping from $1,400 to $900 in the space of a few months, and dealers not even willing to take it as a trade-in!  They'll take an Indonesian or Chinese Epiphone any time, and definitely a Mex Strat/Tele, but not a Variax.

 

Yes, i bought my JTV expecting more from it, and yes, I'm disappointed in its performance, that was a calculated risk.  But I never expected the value drop.

 

Prices here in Canada are vastly different to those in the US of A, and we get gouged on intenational shipping and duties.  I have bought guitars in the US before, but I definitely want a warranty for something like a JTV, with all the electronic goodies, so that means buying in Canada.  There are no $600 JTV-89's here, to the best of my knowledge.

 

Cheers


  • 0

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Larry d'Lion

 

2012 Line 6 JTV-69

Plus lots of Tele's, Gretsches,

Mesa Boogie amps, Fender Blues Jr.,

... and lots of acoustic stuff





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