POD HD500X in Blues Junior III

[Gslinger1984]

Good evening.

 

I am reading for 5 evenings about using the POD into an amp without fx loop.

Honestly i am not getting wiser.

 

My problem occurred when i found on rehearsal of our band the POD trough the blues junior sounds really thin.

 

I tried to change the output, with and without cabinet, pre amps only, full modeling.

 

I have gathered these answers to my question:

 

-POD HD must be used trough an active speaker only, not with a tube amp.

-POD HD can only be used on amps with fx loops.

 

However i am stuck to using my POD into my guitar in from the blues junior.

Are there people here that can confirm they have good tone using that way of setting it up?

 

I am not giving up but the way it is i cannot use it with the band.

 

Any tips are welcome.

 

Thanks in advance. 

 

 

[AlexKenivel]

POD HD must be used trough an active speaker only, not with a tube amp.

False. I plug my pod into the return of my tube amp's effects loop and get great tones, even with full modeling in studio/direct mode.

 

POD HD can only be used on amps with fx loops.

False. I've plugged into the front ends of amps and got a good sound. It's not always easy and is almost never consistent between front end of one amp to another.

 

Maybe your don't quite understand the different output modes?

 

(from Meambobbo's guide)

 

"Stack is for full or 1/2 stacks (or closed-back 2x12's). Combo is for open back combos. Power amp is for running the Pod into a guitar power amp or a guitar amp's an effects loop return. Front is for an amp's guitar input. Studio/Direct is for direct to PA/mixing board, headphones, or DAW (when you're not using IR's to simulate a cab).

 

Output modes were designed so that you could dial in a patch using one output mode and hooked up to the appropriate real gear, then switch output modes for other gear and get the same tone. In reality, your tone will never be the same between different gear, despite changing output modes. Don't expect them to work this way, but they do offer slight compensations that may help get closer to that ballpark sooner.

 

You should use Studio/Direct if you want to use the cab/mic simulation provided in the Pod. This would be useful if you are recording directly to a DAW (and not using IR's in that DAW), running direct to the PA/mixing board, or are using headphones.

 

Other output modes use "live-voiced cabs". The mic model selected has no impact on the tone. The selected cab simply EQ's your tone mildly to slightly mimic the response of the cab, when run through a real guitar cab (or IR). This is no substitute for a mic'ed cab or IR. Without one of those, the tone will be very harsh.

 

The difference between stack and combo modes is that combo has a bass boost. Since combo amps generally have less bass, the idea was that the bass response would be consistent between gear. Again, it won't be magically the same between gear, but it can get you close.

 

The front output modes additionally include a crude global EQ designed to help neutralize any pre-amp coloration that will occur when plugging into the front input of an amp. A pre-amp does

more than change the frequency response, so don't expect this output mode to truly neutralize a pre-amp. It's almost always best to run the Pod output into the effects loop return of a real amp."

 

Those last couple of paragraphs seem key to your situation.

 

I've also put my pod through the front end of different bass amps. I've had more luck with this than with the front end of a guitar amp

[Gslinger1984]

False. I plug my pod into the return of my tube amp's effects loop and get great tones, even with full modeling in studio/direct mode.

 

 

False. I've plugged into the front ends of amps and got a good sound. It's not always easy and is almost never consistent between front end of one amp to another.

 

Maybe your don't quite understand the different output modes?

 

(from Meambobbo's guide)

 

"Stack is for full or 1/2 stacks (or closed-back 2x12's). Combo is for open back combos. Power amp is for running the Pod into a guitar power amp or a guitar amp's an effects loop return. Front is for an amp's guitar input. Studio/Direct is for direct to PA/mixing board, headphones, or DAW (when you're not using IR's to simulate a cab).

 

Output modes were designed so that you could dial in a patch using one output mode and hooked up to the appropriate real gear, then switch output modes for other gear and get the same tone. In reality, your tone will never be the same between different gear, despite changing output modes. Don't expect them to work this way, but they do offer slight compensations that may help get closer to that ballpark sooner.

 

You should use Studio/Direct if you want to use the cab/mic simulation provided in the Pod. This would be useful if you are recording directly to a DAW (and not using IR's in that DAW), running direct to the PA/mixing board, or are using headphones.

 

Other output modes use "live-voiced cabs". The mic model selected has no impact on the tone. The selected cab simply EQ's your tone mildly to slightly mimic the response of the cab, when run through a real guitar cab (or IR). This is no substitute for a mic'ed cab or IR. Without one of those, the tone will be very harsh.

 

The difference between stack and combo modes is that combo has a bass boost. Since combo amps generally have less bass, the idea was that the bass response would be consistent between gear. Again, it won't be magically the same between gear, but it can get you close.

 

The front output modes additionally include a crude global EQ designed to help neutralize any pre-amp coloration that will occur when plugging into the front input of an amp. A pre-amp does

more than change the frequency response, so don't expect this output mode to truly neutralize a pre-amp. It's almost always best to run the Pod output into the effects loop return of a real amp."

 

Those last couple of paragraphs seem key to your situation.

 

I've also put my pod through the front end of different bass amps. I've had more luck with this than with the front end of a guitar amp

Thank you for this clear explaination.

So i think i am stuck to at least purchase an amp with an fx loop built in.

 

I think as you say, tweaking for front imput iw very inconsistent. I know it will give me headaches. I think i tried a whole week to get a somewhat acceptable rock tone.

 

So far i have two options as i see it now:

 

Purchase a new amp with fx loop

Sell the pod and use pedals

 

Any amp suggestions in the 15w range?

[CipherHost]

LINE 6 DT25 is a 25 watt amp that can be switched into Low Volume Mode (LVM) that is 10 watts. In 25 watt mode, the power amp section uses EL84 tubes and the pre amps are the same modeled pre amps in the POD HD. In LVM, both pre and power amps are modeled. It integrates perfectly with the POD HD via L6 Link or can be used independently. 

[Gslinger1984]

I concidered the dt25 but i am not willing to smend another 1000 right now.

I thing i will try agzin to just make the effects work. Anyway the distortion sounds horrible like this.

[BillBee]

I believe what Alex was saying is that you can use the front end of your amp but the settings on the HD will have to be adjusted if/when you switch to a different amp at a different time.

 

Tube amps can have a great tone with the HD so I believe its a matter of patience with your Blues Jr.

 

Try using the HD like a pedal board and add effects one by one as you build the tone. Set output to combo front (as a start - no harm in going through the different output modes), add a preamp only (not too much gain) set up the tubescreamer and see what goes. The Blue Jr is a good amp on its own and should always sound decent with a tubescreamer in front after that try a delay.  While it wouldn't be my first choice to use with a HD there is no reason you cannot dial it in.

 

As far as thin sounding - tough to say, you more than likely have to try and adjust the amps tone controls. I've run the HD into the front of a bunch of solid state amps (studio direct output) and it sounds good - amps set to flat EQ, little to no gain and no reverb.

[Gslinger1984]

I believe what Alex was saying is that you can use the front end of your amp but the settings on the HD will have to be adjusted if/when you switch to a different amp at a different time.

 

Tube amps can have a great tone with the HD so I believe its a matter of patience with your Blues Jr.

 

Try using the HD like a pedal board and add effects one by one as you build the tone. Set output to combo front (as a start - no harm in going through the different output modes), add a preamp only (not too much gain) set up the tubescreamer and see what goes. The Blue Jr is a good amp on its own and should always sound decent with a tubescreamer in front after that try a delay. While it wouldn't be my first choice to use with a HD there is no reason you cannot dial it in.

 

As far as thin sounding - tough to say, you more than likely have to try and adjust the amps tone controls. I've run the HD into the front of a bunch of solid state amps (studio direct output) and it sounds good - amps set to flat EQ, little to no gain and no reverb.

That is interesting, you saying i have to flat EQ, so setting at zero the tone controls of the simulated amp or preamp!

 

The clean tones are pretty ok but the overdrives need a lot of tweaking to my ears.

 

I think i will reset the pedal with a fresh install and start from scratch tonight.

[BillBee]

Its really a matter of finding a starting place so you can know which direction to adjust. By reducing the variables you can track which changes are shaping the tone in the direction you desire. I wouldn't zero everything on the HD but I would start by setting all the amp's tone controls to say 5 and work from there.

 

You might not want to use a simulated amp and cab. You might find the real amp just needs to have the HD's pre-amps or stomp boxes in front to drive the real amp.

[Gslinger1984]

Would it be different/easier if i use a solid state amp? I have one spare. You see i need to rehearse every thursday and this tweaking takes time. I want something to perform and take my time to tweak things.

[cruisinon2]

Would it be different/easier if i use a solid state amp? I have one spare. You see i need to rehearse every thursday and this tweaking takes time. I want something to perform and take my time to tweak things.

"Can it be done?" and "can it be done with decent results?", are two very different questions. Yes, you can plug straight into the front of an amp. Any amp...tube, or solid state. However, whether or not you will get a tone that you like, in my experience is very hit or miss...mostly miss. It's a noisy set up at best, and the more gain you add, the noisier it gets. You might get away with it if you need predominantly clean to edge-of-breakup type sounds, but high-gain tones are usually a dead-end with this kind of set-up. FX can become a problem too, as some (delays and reverbs mostly) don't work as well at the front end.

[BillBee]

Tough to say to be honest, a lot depends on how well you know the HD. But there is no reason not to try it on the other amp.

[Gslinger1984]

"Can it be done?" and "can it be done with decent results?", are two very different questions. Yes, you can plug straight into the front of an amp. Any amp...tube, or solid state. However, whether or not you will get a tone that you like, in my experience is very hit or miss...mostly miss. It's a noisy set up at best, and the more gain you add, the noisier it gets. You might get away with it if you need predominantly clean to edge-of-breakup type sounds, but high-gain tones are usually a dead-end with this kind of set-up. FX can become a problem too, as some (delays and reverbs mostly) don't work as well at the front end.

Unfortunately this is the most common answer i get.

What is the ideal stage setup for the hd?

Amp with fx loop?

Powered speakerset?

[BillBee]

To be honest, for me, I like to run it into a Tech 21 Power Engine 60. Its basically a power amp and 1 12" speaker in a combo. Some people go straight to the PA, some powered monitors. There is not a hard and fast rule.

 

The FX loop thing is for people that have an amp already as it gives a few options. 4 cable method (if the amp's preamp is sweet and the dude wants to use it) or right in the FX loop to bypass the amp's not too desirable preamp. Once in a while I'll drag a head/4x12 out and just go into the loop too for example.

 

I have a 2x12 old Marshall Master Lead combo and I have gone straight in and it sound awesome (gt12 speakers in that).

 

When I got the HD I didn't use it with the band for a number of months until I had useable tones dialed in with the gear I use.

 

The Blues Junior still a great amp.

 

-B

[Gslinger1984]

Blues junior is a great amp with normal pedals but not with the hd i guess.

The tech 21 also seems a regular amp to me or am i wrong?

[BillBee]

The PE60 is just a power amp and speaker in a combo. There is no preamp - it has other features xlr out etc. But that's just what I use.

 

You know one thing I forgot was to set the output level of your HD low when going into the Blues Junior. You are going to have to sit down and turn some knobs.

[cruisinon2]

Unfortunately this is the most common answer i get.

What is the ideal stage setup for the hd?

Amp with fx loop?

Powered speakerset?

And why do you suppose that's the case? Because it's the only real answer that exists. No one can magically tell you what will work/sound best for you. There are no short cuts. Work is required.

 

You've said nothing about what you're actually trying to achieve tone-wise, so all anyone can do is guess. Jazz standards, Morbid Angel tribute band, banjo quintet? Nobody has a crystal ball...asking wide-open, 100% subjective questions is not going to get you any closer to your goal, whatever it may be. If a "best" option existed, then there would be only one way to hook the unit up, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

There is no right or wrong...it either sounds good to you, or it doesn't. If not, then it's back to the drawing board. There is no circumventing the experimental stage, however. Trying various set-ups allows you to explore everything the unit has to offer...but nobody can do that for you.

[BillBee]

Morbid Jazz Banjo! \m/

[cruisinon2]

Morbid Jazz Banjo! \m/

A much maligned genre...and all because of the rather odd combination of forehead pentagram tattoos, bow ties, and overalls. Sad...;)

[Gslinger1984]

And why do you suppose that's the case? Because it's the only real answer that exists. No one can magically tell you what will work/sound best for you. There are no short cuts. Work is required.

 

You've said nothing about what you're actually trying to achieve tone-wise. Jazz standards, Morbid Angel tribute band, banjo quintet? Nobody has a crystal ball...asking wide-open, 100% subjective questions is not going to get you any closer to your goal, whatever it may be. If a "best" option existed, then there would be only one way to hook the unit up, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

There is no right or wrong...it either sounds good to you, or it doesn't. If not, then it's back to the drawing board. There is no circumventing the experimental stage, however. Trying various set-ups allows you to explore everything the unit has to offer...but nobody can do that for you.

Well first off al my main question is. Is it possible to get a pod hd working good trough the line in of a tube amp.

 

I wanted to make sure i was not putting my finger into a microwave and expect it to sound like guitar, if you know what i mean.

 

Now i know it is possible but will require effort which i don't mind. The only thing i noticed is that not a lot of people use this method.

 

Now for your information i play in a jazz combo, Scofield, Rheinhardt, Evans, Metheny, free jazz. I also recently started a band where we play blues, rock, pop, funk covers. Dire straits, stones, ccr, peppers, Anouk, srv, hendrix .... Anything we like.

 

For that i bought the 500x. It was that or a few pedals.

[cruisinon2]

Well first off al my main question is. Is it possible to get a pod hd working good trough the line in of a tube amp.

 

I wanted to make sure i was not putting my finger into a microwave and expect it to sound like guitar, if you know what i mean.

 

Now i know it is possible but will require effort which i don't mind. The only thing i noticed is that not a lot of people use this method.

 

Now for your information i play in a jazz combo, Scofield, Rheinhardt, Evans, Metheny, free jazz. I also recently started a band where we play blues, rock, pop, funk covers. Dire straits, stones, ccr, peppers, Anouk, srv, hendrix .... Anything we like.

 

For that i bought the 500x. It was that or a few pedals.

Well you may not want to hear this, but everything I've already said still applies.

 

Is it possible to go straight into the front and get tone you're happy with? Yes. Will it be an easy, plug-and-play, turn it on and go process? Probably not. You're daisy-chaining two preamps together. The amp's pre-amp will color everything the HD puts out. This will likely require lots of EQing before your happy. As I said before, low gain clean tones for all the jazz you're playing should be a bit easier to dial and less noisy with this set-up than super-saturated metal tones...so that's a plus. However, as you add gain things will get progressively messier. The 500X is fairly noisy on its own. I've got noise gates in all but my cleanest of patches. Adding another preamp behind it will magnify that. So you may find that this particular rig will work for your jazz gigs, but perhaps not as well for the rock, pop, and blues stuff...that's my guess. And it may not be as simple as adding a fuzz or tube screamer to the chain to go from one to the other. You will likely have to build a number of different patches depending on what you're playing.

[Gslinger1984]

I think i am on a good track here. Input guitar instead of variax cleans the ears out. Also 1/4 out on line sounds way better than amp. Who knows whats right i'l do it myyyyyyyyy waaaaaaaaaay.

[BillBee]

Cool Dude, you do have to play with it. With the amount of options the HD has it can get interesting (or frustrating). Once you get a baseline patch setup save it as a template so if you go too far and cannot make it back you can just reload the template. :)

 

Just jumped back a bit into jazz and 36 positions for a C chord so far. :blink: Good stuff.

[DunedinDragon]

When I see conversations like this going on I'm eternally grateful that I went with a FRFR speaker setup when I moved to the HD500X.  I can see now how it made my life a whole lot simpler.

[Gslinger1984]

FRFR please explain lol

[PerS]

Don't know if this helps but Peter Hanmer made a series of good videos on different toptics, you find them here - http://www.peterhanmer.co.za/line6.htm. Video 5 expalin plugging the pod in front of an amp.

 

You finde some of Peters patches at the bottom of the page.

 

Hope you get a lead there.

 

Chears /Per

[Gslinger1984]

Wel that is a nice post, thanks PerS!!

[PerS]

You are so welcome... let us know how it went. I have had may eyes on the Blues Jr too, but as a stand alone with a few pedals. Nice peace of amp

 

//Per 

[cruisinon2]

FRFR please explain lol

Full Range, Flat Response.

 

http://blog.musicinsidermagazine.com/2014/07/frfr-speaker-cabs/

[Gslinger1984]

Ok, so today i decided to start a test.

I purchased a behringer 212d to test with the pod hd500x. It was a world of a difference when i tried it in the store.

[ianbuchanan1]

Can we get a video to get a joe bonamassa tone