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Using only piezo without modelling?

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#1 Dshow

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 05:09 AM

Hi,

is it possible to use only the piezo direct output without modelling involved?

 

Thanks


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#2 ozbadman

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 05:30 AM

I don't think so, but a piezo direct is normally pretty harsh and at a minimum, has to be EQ'd to sound OK.


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#3 zedopaido

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 06:15 AM

ok, I've been working on this for a while. The sound of the pure piezo is actually great . To have a try just do a roll back and update again on monkey and as you update pull the variax cable out. bang ther is your piezo , however the volume is very low and if you bump it u on your mixer you will get a bit of hiss, useless in my opinion as you only get that sound.

 

I was so unsatisfied with HD acoustics  ( much prefer the old 1.71 acoustics)that now I'm able to run both worlds on my variax.

It was a series of software hack trials and errors you name it. It's been up and running now for 3 months now and I could not be happier. As they say in real life, happy wife =  happy life. to me it is,  happy guitarist/singer = great gigs.  It now  suits me very well as I am able to have the old acoustics along with the rest of HD. I'm still working on having just the piezos though. 

How I did it? Well, for the past year a friend and I have lost a months and way too many sleepiness night. 

Ok in another words line 6 can not unify the firmware. Do not waste your precious time requesting features. Due to initial conceptual legacy and software development + ownership the company has been taken court and lost the cases hence the new variax standard is locked at HD and at Yamaha hands now . The rest of the story we already know.

 

Although I'm full aware of software manipulating is illegal it was done  for personal preferences sake since there is no other alternative. Soon I will be posting a link for those interested in loading both worlds ( I call it BHD).  


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#4 talwilkins

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 06:31 AM

Interesting, keep us posted!

I would very much like to learn what you did.


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#5 Dshow

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 07:15 AM

Mmmh, seems that it is not so easy do achieve. That's a pitty. It would be a wonderfull addition since the piezos are there anyway. Just like on Parker guitars or John Petrucci signiture.

 

For explanation what I wanted to do:

I'm a proud owner of a helix since 2 weeks ;-). I've got some acoustic guitar IR's that I have imported in helix. With the acoustic modelling from variax into the IRs doesn't sound very well. It seems a bit redundant. I have created a patch ( or better downlades and adjusted ) which works pretty well with the Acoustic modelling. But with only the piezos and IRs I would have some more possibilites.


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#6 psarkissian

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 09:04 AM

Engaging the Models, engages the piezos.

That's how it was designed.

 

Somewhere in Custom 1, Alt Tune = Model, is a Model of the JTV itself. I forget which one,

I don't use it much, but it's a way of using the piezos and sound like the JTV itself.


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#7 jandrio

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 01:46 AM

??????????? :unsure:


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#8 MiroslavKloud

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 01:03 AM

I was so unsatisfied with HD acoustics  ( much prefer the old 1.71 acoustics)that now I'm able to run both worlds on my variax.

It was a series of software hack trials and errors you name it. It's been up and running now for 3 months now and I could not be happier. ...

Hi, this is very interesting and enticing.
And if you have such a possibility, maybe you could help with this problem:
 
What is BHD?

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#9 ozbadman

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 06:20 AM

Due to initial conceptual legacy and software development + ownership the company has been taken court and lost the cases hence the new variax standard is locked at HD and at Yamaha hands now .

 
What? Never heard of this. Sounds like rubbish to me.
 

Although I'm full aware of software manipulating is illegal it was done  for personal preferences sake since there is no other alternative. Soon I will be posting a link for those interested in loading both worlds ( I call it BHD).

 
Who said it was illegal? As long as you don't sell it or give it to anyone else, you can do what you like. The posting of the modified software, not that would be illegal due to copyright restrictions.
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#10 psarkissian

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 09:11 AM

"Who said it was illegal? As long as you don't sell it or give it to anyone else, you can do what you like. The posting of the modified software, not that would be illegal due to copyright restrictions"---

 

That may be so,... but there may also be "industrial espionage" aspects to consider. In 2003, the industrial espionage act here in America was overhauled, as a "strategic imperative",  in response to the "war on terrorism".

 

Breaking into someone's software might be considered an act of industrial espionage, and may be subject to prosecution and especially some very hefty monetary damages. These are criminal penalties as well that goes way beyond the civil penalties of Copyright infringement.

 

People in Holland, Germany and the UK have gotten into trouble over this sort of thing, so being outside the USA doesn't leave them immune,.... especially in those countries that are signatories of IP (copyrights and patents) treaties.

 

I read about the industrial espionage act overhaul and update in an article in one of the publications of the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers).

 

Please,... be careful of what lines you cross. I don't want to see anyone get into trouble over stuff like this, it's not worth it.

It's about the rock-n-roll, it's about the music.


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#11 cruisinon2

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 10:54 AM

"

Who said it was illegal? As long as you don't sell it or give it to anyone else, you can do what you like. The posting of the modified software, not that would be illegal due to copyright restrictions
"---

That may be so,... but there may also be "industrial espionage" aspects to consider. In 2003, the industrial espionage act here in America was overhauled, as a "strategic imperative", in response to the "war on terrorism".

Breaking into someone's software might be considered an act of industrial espionage, and may be subject to prosecution and especially some very hefty monetary damages. These are criminal penalties as well that goes way beyond the civil penalties of Copyright infringement.

People in Holland, Germany and the UK have gotten into trouble over this sort of thing, so being outside the USA doesn't leave them immune,.... especially in those countries that are signatories of IP (copyrights and patents) treaties.

I read about the industrial espionage act overhaul and update in an article in one of the publications of the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers).

Please,... be careful of what lines you cross. I don't want to see anyone get into trouble over stuff like this, it's not worth it.
It's about the rock-n-roll, it's about the music.


Well we all get the government we deserve...voter turnout is generally abysmal, so this sort of thing shouldn't surprise anyone. Remember all the hoopla over jailbreaking iDevices? First it's illegal, then it's not, then it's illegal again for some devices, but not others...and all subject to the whims of the head honcho at the Library of Congress, who gets to change his/her mind every 3 years.

You don't really own the stuff you buy, folks...everybody enjoy! We did it to ourselves.
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#12 psarkissian

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 01:42 PM

We own the stuff we buy,... we just don't own the IP that's in them.

Yeah, maybe do a hack here and there, but if it gets loose, that's something else.

 

Africanized killer bees in a lab got loose from a lab in Brazil,... now there are a host

of consequences from that. Infringing on someone's IP right is like letting loose the

killer bees,... a host of consequences. Please be careful and aware.

 

As far LOC goes,... your copyright is yours for the life of the holder +70 years.

Like all other rights, your IP rights have to be enforced, or you the holder looses out.

 

Know too many rock-n-rollers who have had their IP rights trampled on. Hate seeing

that happen. Would hate to see that happen to any budding rock stars here too.

 

Saw something about Metallica a lawsuit, and their fans. I need to go back and check

that one again.


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#13 psarkissian

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 01:44 PM

As for piezo mods,...  piezos are sensitive things. Care in

handling is advised.


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#14 cruisinon2

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 04:15 PM

Africanized killer bees in a lab got loose from a lab in Brazil,... now there are a host
of consequences from that. Infringing on someone's IP right is like letting loose the
killer bees,... a host of consequences. Please be careful and aware.


Ahh yes, the killer bees. I'm reminded of those crappy, late 70's/early 80's PBS documentaries with the ominous voice-overs that terrified me when I was 8...because they were coming. Any day now, they were gonna overrun North America, and then we'd all be doomed. Well I'm 42, and still waiting for my first killer bee sighting...but I digress.

As for the software, I really couldn't care less, because I couldn't "hack" into a paper bag, never mind computer code. I'm also not the least bit interested in acquiring software that someone else had mutilated, so it's never going to affect me one way or the other. As it is, with the firmware you guys designed, updating the JTV is an act of faith. I cross my fingers and say a Hail Mary, hoping it doesn't brick itself. Why on earth would I try to load it with somebody else's mangled version of software? I'm quite content to use the gear as it was designed, warts and all. I was simply musing over the degree to which we allow our benevolent overlords to dictate what we can and can't do with our own stuff. As always, opinions vary...
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#15 psarkissian

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 04:44 PM

You're always okay, I never need to worry about you.

 

Cheers.


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#16 clay-man

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 08:40 PM

Jailbreak your Variax.


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#17 cruisinon2

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 04:58 AM

Jailbreak your Variax.


Only if you get permission from The Man...
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#18 Dshow

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 06:37 AM

I think the safest way to go would be a self developed open source software that can be installed in the variax.


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#19 Rewolf48

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 06:42 AM

Line 6 - just give us the option of Piezo blend as well as Magnetic blend and we will all be happy!  Piezo only by setting to 100% Peizo and for Ovation sounds a mix somewhere in between.

 

Seriously while the full acoustic sounds are great, sometimes you need that fake acoustic sound to fit in at the back of a mix, and such a blend wouldn't cost anything in processing power - it is just a case of only mixing a certain amount of the body and other simulations with the source signal.

 

Vote here:

 

http://line6.ideasca...TV/515946-23508

 

and here:

 

http://line6.ideasca...nd/576212-23508

 

With only 44 and 10 votes respectively it is not surprising that they haven't done anything about it.


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#20 Dshow

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 06:47 AM

I already voted for the first one a long time ago. This is from 2013 so I have little hope they will implement that but who knows


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#21 CipherHost

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 01:51 PM

Jailbreak your Variax.

 

Tonight there's gonna be a jailbreak
Somewhere in this town
See me and the boys we don't like it
Want control of our sound

 

I can hear Line 6 on my trail

All hell breaks loose, alarm and sirens wail
Like the game if you lose
Go to jail
 
Breakout!

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#22 ozbadman

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 10:02 PM

psarkissian, on 15 Jan 2016 - 12:11 AM, said:
"Who said it was illegal? As long as you don't sell it or give it to anyone else, you can do what you like. The posting of the modified software, not that would be illegal due to copyright restrictions"---

That may be so,... but there may also be "industrial espionage" aspects to consider. In 2003, the industrial espionage act here in America was overhauled, as a "strategic imperative", in response to the "war on terrorism".

Breaking into someone's software might be considered an act of industrial espionage, and may be subject to prosecution and especially some very hefty monetary damages. These are criminal penalties as well that goes way beyond the civil penalties of Copyright infringement.

People in Holland, Germany and the UK have gotten into trouble over this sort of thing, so being outside the USA doesn't leave them immune,.... especially in those countries that are signatories of IP (copyrights and patents) treaties.


If I broke into the Variax software and installed a virus, that then made all Variaxes do something like, oh I don't know, have a plinky low-E string then sure, that would be Industrial Espionage. Or used the IP to start my own company. Or even modded it and on-sold it. But, just modding the code at home to make different music, no problem. Unless it's metal music. Now THAT would be subversion. :)

When I buy a book, I do have the right to read that book. I just can't on-sell copies of it, modded (defaced, summarised, etc.) or otherwise, nor substantially use the content for my own book. I can sell my one copy however (akin to selling your variax).

Personally, I have no desire to spend the next 10 years with a bunch of friends re-writing the DSP algorithms that L6 has been working on all this time, just so I, and only I, can have a modded variax.
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#23 shredjsx

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 01:45 AM

I was unsatisfied with the acoustic models too.....
But then I started doing some serious tweeks with the string octaves, cents, and volumes of strings and I am starting to have great success, especially using the Line 6 Acoustic Patch on the HD500x....
I tweeked my Twelve string to sound as if it's a very balanced 6 string with a low, chorus echo in the back

Patience is the way of the light side, Frustration, software manipulation and bypassing can only lead to the Dark side of the force and a screwed up Variax....
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#24 psarkissian

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 08:43 AM

These aren't the hacked JTV droids you're looking for.

 

Workbench HD is useful for tweaks.

Luke,... use the Workbench HD, stretch out with your tools.


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#25 ozbadman

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 12:23 PM

These aren't the hacked JTV droids you're looking for.
 
Workbench HD is useful for tweaks.
Luke,... use the Workbench HD, stretch out with your tools.


Agreed. And congrats on L6 for Workbench too.

Move along. Move along.
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#26 psarkissian

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 12:51 PM

May the Force or the Schwartz, be with you.  :)


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#27 Beagle1

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 01:07 PM

Line 6 - just give us the option of Piezo blend as well as Magnetic blend and we will all be happy!  Piezo only by setting to 100% Peizo and for Ovation sounds a mix somewhere in between.

 

Seriously while the full acoustic sounds are great, sometimes you need that fake acoustic sound to fit in at the back of a mix, and such a blend wouldn't cost anything in processing power - it is just a case of only mixing a certain amount of the body and other simulations with the source signal.

 

Vote here:

 

http://line6.ideasca...TV/515946-23508

 

and here:

 

http://line6.ideasca...nd/576212-23508

 

With only 44 and 10 votes respectively it is not surprising that they haven't done anything about it.

 

+1 on this! I may be wrong, but how hard would it be to just provide a "piezo only" model.

 

Seems like it has been forever since L6 released the 2.0 "HD" Variax software -- August 2013 IIRC. There have been a couple minor updates since then but does anyone know if L6 is still actively developing the software? Wonder if there will be any Variax-related news coming out of NAMM this week.


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#28 clay-man

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 06:25 PM

Like I said before, we have a neutral body, which I believe just means having the body modeling off.

So why not a neutral pickups? neutral pickup, no pickup, or piezo option? neautral body + the latter = normal piezo sound.

 

There's no way in hell they CAN'T add a bypass feature on the Variax. It's not like they have to add more modeling code since it's not actually a new model, just the guitar's piezo sound raw.


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#29 fr0sty

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 08:04 AM

I like these ideas.  It would be great having the piezo only signal, that way we could experiment with acoustic guitar IR's (among other things).

 

Line 6 - just give us the option of Piezo blend as well as Magnetic blend and we will all be happy!  Piezo only by setting to 100% Peizo and for Ovation sounds a mix somewhere in between.

 

Seriously while the full acoustic sounds are great, sometimes you need that fake acoustic sound to fit in at the back of a mix, and such a blend wouldn't cost anything in processing power - it is just a case of only mixing a certain amount of the body and other simulations with the source signal.

 

Vote here:

 

http://line6.ideasca...TV/515946-23508

 

and here:

 

http://line6.ideasca...nd/576212-23508

 

With only 44 and 10 votes respectively it is not surprising that they haven't done anything about it.


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#30 amsdenj

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 01:59 PM

Helix makes this simple feature a lot more valuable since you can put acoustic guitar body image IRs in Helix and use them to make a piezo pickup sound pretty good. Or run your Variax into a Fishman Aura Spectrum.


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#31 Dshow

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 12:56 AM

Helix makes this simple feature a lot more valuable since you can put acoustic guitar body image IRs in Helix and use them to make a piezo pickup sound pretty good. Or run your Variax into a Fishman Aura Spectrum.

Yeah, I have a pretty good acoustic patch, where I use an IR, but the original question was to use variax piezo only. That would open a lot more possibility and the hardware is already there. Why not use it.


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#32 HonestOpinion

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 01:34 PM

I still think it is a bloody shame that given the fact that you already have six separate piezo ouputs (in essence a hexaphonic pickup) on the Variax that it can't do double duty as a Roland "GK" style synth guitar. An additional GK style ouput would be ideal but even if you had to purchase an optional VDI-GK converter module, this capability should definitely make its way into the Line6 tech at some point in the future. This would make the Variax a no-brainer purchase, sales would skyrocket!


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#33 snhirsch

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 04:36 AM

Technically, I agree.  Business-wise, why would you expect Line6 to help a competitor? 


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#34 HonestOpinion

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Posted 09 May 2016 - 11:38 AM

Technically, I agree.  Business-wise, why would you expect Line6 to help a competitor? 

 

Good point! I guess the numbers would have to work in terms of increased sales for the Variax and the proposed "converter module", and even then, perhaps as you point out it simply would not benefit them to help a competitor. Just seems a waste of potential not to leverage even further the fact that the Variax already has the hardware to process each string separately. Guess we just need more in the way of guitar synth capability in Line6 products like the Helix and for the signal for each piezo to be able to be output individually  ;)


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