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New Firmware Expectations


EOengineer
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Having been a line 6 customer through every rendition of the Pod, original bean to current HD500 (as well as Vetta and amp farm), I've become accustomed to periodic updates as a mechanism to fine tune their devices functionality more closely to the expectations of their customers.

 

We all wonder, and make wish lists, but I'm wondering what everyone REALISTICALLY expects if another update were to take place.

 

Part of me expects that they are done with new amps, and will instead clean up some of the EQ presentations, maybe retweak a few cabs.

 

Part of me wants to go for broke and hope they add amps and retweak the cab/mic models, but I want to focus on what is realistic here. What are you guys guessing?

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Expectations: a sure way to be let down. wishlists and ideas are good... but i'm pretty happy to get whatever they throw my way... not like it's costing me any more money at this point... (although it would if they came out with some model packs!)

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Expectations: a sure way to be let down. wishlists and ideas are good... but i'm pretty happy to get whatever they throw my way... not like it's costing me any more money at this point... (although it would if they came out with some model packs!)

Really? They'd charge you for it after you beta tested them? Wow..

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Agree with you all on this, just bought a GT 100 this week to see if amp modelling can compare ( a week in and resounding...NO! ), but first post is interesting, I've had three versions of GT, Boss know that pretty much whatever is thrown out onto the market, loyal customers will buy in the hope that what was good will now be great, what was great will now be awesome. Line 6 are no different.

 

From their perspective and if you read the 'wishlists', to please everyone the next update will include about 250 amp models and a thousand tweaks to EQ, connection, effects,and DSP.

 

People can't help but see it from selfish view, I've seen amps on the wishlist that I have never heard of, and my taste goes from Riannha to Rush, EVH to Oasis people will always be disappointed.

 

LIne 6 can't win either way, but the honest truth is owning three previous GT, GR20, GR55, VG99 and zero updates, I am grateful for what comes along

 

( my wishlist is the Tea Chest bass sound used in skiffle..ha ha see what I mean ? )

 

Peace

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If they're listening to the forums, the JC120 and EVH5150 are two of the most popular choices amp-wise. I'd be happy with them.

 

It would be nice to think they'd solve the ongoing EQ argument, but I'd've thought they'd've already done it by now if they were going to.

 

Personally, I bought the 500 when I was happy with what you got with it, so anything extra is a bonus new toy.

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I just wish they'd fix the marshall JCM 800 sim.. it sounds nothing like an 800 and add an AFD 100 thats on par with amplitubes (Which is brilliant IMHO)

 

oh and fix the daggum speaker sim setup so it's not a shot in the dark.. use pictures, move the mic around instead of expecting people to guess what the settings are suppose to do. To me that was the most disappointing, it's like tryign to learn a foreign language instead of being really easy and straight forward

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We all wonder, and make wish lists, but I'm wondering what everyone REALISTICALLY expects if another update were to take place.

 

 

I am so tired of playing the expectation game with line 6 because they never disclose or give the slightest hint of what's to come. 

My expectations are minimal because the shortfalls are so many when it comes to the HD series and I'll list a few items just to show that I highly doubt that they will address major concerns for the Recording Guitarist that they seem to have forgotten about with the HD release. The HD series is more for the performing guitarist and here's why:

 

1-The recording abilities relating to routing signal are a step backward when compared with POD XT , POD Farm. All the options that were available close to  TEN years ago with POD Farm/XT are no longer available. Re-amping is not addressed at all. If you compare that with current competition: Eleven Rack has Re-amping at the software Level similar to POD Farm.

 

2-EQ is not for the recording guitarists and is tailored for those who has no idea how a traditional studio EQ work. No point in beating a dead horse. Suffice to say that the competition such as the Eleven Rack has a full featured studio EQ.

 

3-Finally the amp modeling is an improvement but honestly still no where near those of the competition. Eleven Rack at 300 without Pro tools , half the price of the HD pro, has models that are way more realistic than the current HD models. Not only the sound, but the way all the amps behave when pushed, are much more realistic and better sounding using the Eleven Rack.

 

If line 6 wants to cater to the studio guitarist they must address these three items. Currently, If they update the number of models to 250 amps, I won't use my HD500 for amp models, because the Eleven that I just bought sounds thicker, bigger, more like a real amp that it dwarfs every single model on the HD. The hd is a decent effect processor though but the quality, not the quantity, of the reverbs, modulation are very inferior to the quality of Eleven Rack and by a long shot. You just need to hear the Reverb on the Eleven Rack to realize the huge difference in quality and musicality. 

 

My list might be short, but I doubt that line 6 will address that for the next ten years specially when it comes to modelings. They will milk this modeling for another ten years just like, they're doing with POD 2.0 and pod farm. That's fine and I'm not criticizing, i'm just pointing out that they completely abandoned the Studio Guitarist looking for more realistic modeling and they figured at less than a grand, it's not expected anyway, since people pay twice that for a kemper or AXE FX.  That's the wrong attitude, because the next update to Amplitube (that currently has some amps that are better than similar ones in the HD series) and Revalver will leave line 6 further behind in satisfying the recording guitarists' needs...

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I expect they fix a problem with many amps in the POD regarding the total gain. At this moment, if you don't use an effect or two before the simulated amp to boost the input (say the Plexi Lead Brt) and you set the amp's Drive to 80%\100%, you only get the amount of gain you have at 3\4 in the original amp! The estimate is only an idea, is not perfect since I go by memory. You could verify that trying to match the gain of real amps clips that use no external effects, not even the jumpering of the channels, to create the distortion. A solution could be to add a parameter to control the level of the "Guitar In" input, so you won't have to loose blocks only to correct that problem, or simply correct the levels in the modeling of the amps. How unrealistic that could be?

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Really? They'd charge you for it after you beta tested them? Wow..

I'm not wanting to speak for TheRealZap, but I am in a similar situation. I'm sometimes invited to beta-test products as is he. But not all beta-testers are invited to participate in each and every beta test. There's no expectation on my part (nor, I presume, on his) that I would be invited to beta test any model-pack offerings if they are even being planned - which I have no inside information about. So, like The RealZap, I would expect to pay for any model packs if I wanted them. If I did happen to participate in a software beta test then no, I wouldn't be charged for the software.

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I've been wondering...if the Eleven Rack sounds so good, how come they basically have to give it away with Pro Tools to get people to buy it?

 

I want real EQ's and a noise gate that has its own loop that you can set anywhere in the chain, like a Decimator G-String, but only use one block. I mean, the noise gate in my old GT-8 is better than any combination of the ones I've put together on my HD500. They're useable, but not awesome, especially for low tunings where there is extra string noise, etc.

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I expect improvements to the fx. The filters are crass, and overly resonant. I'd assume there is a lot of code reuse with the m13 so this might be realistic.

 

THey better add reamping support over usb. Also, it'd help to have the spdif active when the line6 link is connected, but I won't hold my breath, I think line6 dont care enough about cobplex setups and try only sofar as to appear like they support things, add a few contacts round the back and it looks like it'll do anything..

 

REalistically, I bet they add a few amps, cos that is the stu#f that easily sells. If they go that way, I'll be looking at kemper. Line6 need to improve their small technical details if they want to keep my business

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I've been wondering...if the Eleven Rack sounds so good, how come they basically have to give it away with Pro Tools to get people to buy it?

Because Avid's marketing is more concerned with selling Pro tools so they can sell more plugins later. Eleven with expansion pack installed has more amps than HD because there are many amps where two channels are modeled but counted as one amp.  They can learn a lot from Line 6 marketing, if line 6 buys Eleven Rack, they will sell much more because they're more of a guitar company. If you play the Bogner Xtacy  Blue included in the Eleven Rack, it's almost indistinguishable from the Real thing by those who own the real amp...

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I expect they fix a problem with many amps in the POD regarding the total gain. At this moment, if you don't use an effect or two before the simulated amp to boost the input (say the Plexi Lead Brt) and you set the amp's Drive to 80%\100%, you only get the amount of gain you have at 3\4 in the original amp! The estimate is only an idea, is not perfect since I go by memory. You could verify that trying to match the gain of real amps clips that use no external effects, not even the jumpering of the channels, to create the distortion. A solution could be to add a parameter to control the level of the "Guitar In" input, so you won't have to loose blocks only to correct that problem, or simply correct the levels in the modeling of the amps. How unrealistic that could be?

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I'm wondering what experience you have with real Marshall plexi amps, because when I compare the POD HD plexi to my own REAL plexi, the POD has significantly more gain and compression.

 

If anything, I would argue that the Line6 high gain models have TOO MUCH gain and compression, even with the master volume parameter backed down. The JCM800 is another great example of an amp that should be bright and crunchy, but is instead very dark and mushy, even with a treble boosted EQ in front of it.

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Eleven Rack has Re-amping at the software Level similar to POD Farm.

Eleven Rack has a full featured studio EQ...

 

much more realistic and better sounding using the Eleven Rack...

 

the Eleven that I just bought sounds thicker, bigger, more like a real amp...

 

You just need to hear the Reverb on the Eleven Rack ...

 

Eleven with expansion pack installed has more amps...

 

Bogner Xtacy  Blue included in the Eleven Rack...

 

I hear them all over the place using the Eleven Rack also...

 

but now that I compare it with the Eleven Rack...

 

Amp Modeling in the ELeven is significantly more advanced...

 

My eleven Rack  comes with the Eleven Plugin...

 

That was the case before Eleven Rack came down in price...

 

the Eleven is in a completely higer league in modeling...

 

once you playing the models in Eleven Rack it's very hard to go back...

 

Ever since I got the Eleven, My HD500 sits...

 

I have much more amps in the Eleven...

 

for recording and tone the Eleven is in a completely higer league...

 

are you going to feel that it's "treason" to buy an Eleven Rack?...

 

the HD PRO is inferior to Eleven...

 

Eleven is half the price..

 

I'm definitely considering getting a second Eleven Rack...

 

I just bought an Eleven Rack...

 

The Eleven Rack Modeling is definitely the next level up...

 

the Amp models in the Eleven Rack are much more natural and realistic...

 

I paid 350 for My Eleven...

 

I recently bought the Eleven Rack...

 

After a week with Eleven, I can clearly hear how eleven Feels and sound...

 

I just bought the Eleven Rack...

 

I just got an eleven Rack from Ebay, Brand New, for $300...

 

Eleven with one path sounds way better...

 

Eleven Rack amp models sounded, thicker, bigger occupied more air and space and felt more like a real amp...

 

I will always use Eleven for any guitar tracks I record...

 

they are no match to the Eleven Rack amps!...

 

sounded bigger clearer and more responsive using the Eleven...

 

Bonger Ecstacy models in the Eleven Rack...

 

It becomes very clear that Eleven is modeling many aspects in the amp behavior and sound that isn't addressed in HD modeling...

 

The blue Bogner in the Eleven Rack, alone is worth the 300 dollars I paid...

 

I will be using the ELeven Rack for the foreseeable future...

 

You gotta improve the modeling to catch up with ELeven Rack...

 

the Hardware Eleven that competes and beats the HD Pro...

 

Avid just updated the Driver to Eleven Rack ...

 

Eleven competes with POD HD PRO at half the price...

 

to MY ears and fingers Eleven models are much better...

 

Eleven is the best AMP Modeler...

 

Eleven Rack can be used with any DAW...

'

I'm not trying to sell Eleven Racks...

 

actually hope that line 6 appreciates my inputs on this forum...

 

I already use the Eleven Rack...

 

We GET it. You like your Eleven Rack (tho I don't know where you find the time to enjoy it what with your 24 hour a day job posting in this forum with ads for it).

 

Couple of things...

 

1. I don't have time to go through all your posts to check, but... have you EVER posted here and not turned it into an ad for Eleven Rack?

 

2. Have you ever considered spending your time raving about your Eleven Rack here: http://www.avid.com/US/communities ?

 

3. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason a new Eleven Rack loses more than 50% of its value the instant you purchase it and that Avid has to bundle ProTools with them just to get rid of them is that almost nobody wants one?

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We GET it. You like your Eleven Rack (tho I don't know where you find the time to enjoy it what with your 24 hour a day job posting in this forum with ads for it).

 

:lol: I'm getting paid by Avid to sell Eleven Racks on Line 6 forum, that's my day Job. It pays very well.

 

You obviously don't get it because you have the fan boy mentality who's offended because they have an emotional attachment to their POD HD. I never said the Eleven Rack is the best modeler, I just said it has better models and quality effects than the HD Series. Obviously you're reading emotionally as you missed the part where I mentioned that Kemper and AXE FX have the best quality Amp models but they cost alot more. I also mentioned Amplitube and Revalver and how they're catching up with Kemper and AXE meanwhile line 6 hasn't been updating the Modeling.

 

When you allow your reading comprehension to suffer by reading emotionally, it's very clear that you need to think twice before you start attacking me, someone who's actually pointing deficiencies that if improved and worked on would be good for everyone including line 6 as well as you yourself. I'm not like you simply singing praises and blindly defending and trying to silence legitimate concerns for thousands of  Line 6 customers who are interested in better modeling and recording features.

 

At any rate to answer your question directly, it seems that I would have more time than you to enjoy both My ELeven and POD HD500 since  you have double the number of posts I have. 

 

Couple of things...

 

1. I don't have time to go through all your posts to check, but... have you EVER posted here and not turned it into an ad for Eleven Rack?

Some how you found time and plenty of it ;) .  You seem to have done a good job going through them and selectively focused on where I mentioned the Eleven. I mean holly carp :lol: , you just went through everyone of my posts to find where I talked about Eleven Rack.  Not only that but  you might have embellished what I wrote and reworded it to suite your agenda. I'm not sure if you copied and pasted from my previous posts and I won't take the time to find out.   I wonder if line 6 hired you as a forum POLICE :) .  You obviously have more time than me to defend the HD rather than enjoy playing it.

 

2. Have you ever considered spending your time raving about your Eleven Rack here: http://www.avid.com/US/communities ?

Not really, if I join there, it would probably be to point out deficiencies and hoping AVid would resolve them. Fan boy mentality doesn't suite me very well. To each their own. 

 

3. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason a new Eleven Rack loses more than 50% of its value the instant you purchase it and that Avid has to bundle ProTools with them just to get rid of them is that almost nobody wants one?

 

I don't buy  musical gear as an investment. I don't care how  much my HD500 fetches today or tomorrow, it's a good controller with some decent effects. It's great for live performing. For modeling though Eleven Rack using the same models and speakers head to head, anyone with ears will hear the difference and feel it if they're playing and all in favor of ELEVEN RAck.  If I have some time the next couple of weeks I will do a head to head with the same identical amps modeled to show that. Maybe that would push someone at line 6 to work on improving the modeling, which again is very constructive for everyone. I also happen to agree with you at the price issue with Eleven, because if you buy Eleven without protools from Ebay or anywhere else at 350-400, It probably costs more to make them, these are quality parts ...

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I'm wondering what experience you have with real Marshall plexi amps, because when I compare the POD HD plexi to my own REAL plexi, the POD has significantly more gain and compression.

 

If anything, I would argue that the Line6 high gain models have TOO MUCH gain and compression, even with the master volume parameter backed down. The JCM800 is another great example of an amp that should be bright and crunchy, but is instead very dark and mushy, even with a treble boosted EQ in front of it.

 

Are you talking about the JCM 800 2204 or the Pleaxi Super Lead 1959? No real experience with the originals, I only observe that any audio clip I listen to seems to have MUCH more gain than a patch with the same Drive in the POD, included

 

 

Maybe you could record a clip with you real Plexi on 8 and show me how you can have the same distortion level with 80% on the POD without boosting it in some way or another...

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they regularly get posted on ebay in the 350$ range new.... 

what happens is someone buys it just for the new version of protools and then sells the hardware....

i was considering picking one up because of the good price...

and no... i'm not going to bite on the mini-war :D

 

When I google for Eleven Rack they seem to cost € 250 to €350 more than a HD500(X).

So what do you mean with half the price?

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How could it be invalid. It's not second hand. You have the option of buying the bundle and selling Pro tools for about 400 on Ebay. Even if you don't want to bother,  the ones that are selling without pro tools come  with registration cards so you can register as the original owner. Further more if you keep pro tools which is a pretty good DAW and compare with POD HD pro at a similar price, line 6 doesn't give you anything at all except for the Editor while pro tools is a full fledged DAW that can remember recall your presets in any project that you work on in addition to streamlined Reamping option for every guitar track you record. I already have cubase  and re-amping is also supported so I bought one for 350 brand new and i registered it as the original owner with the full warranty. 

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I understand what you're saying. Technically it a new device and because it's not registered before you can register as the Original owner. Still, it's not the price Avis sells them for. Formally it is a second hand unit (just unused and unregistered). Do you know what part of the Original price (€800) is for the Pro Tools? If you know that you also know what the unit would cost without the software.

I agree the reamping is a great featur the POD misses and there are probably more, but please try to compare things on an even base.

By the way 2 x 350 makes 700, the HD500 is 500!

Even without the question if the Eleven Rack is second hand or not, it's certainly not half the price.

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pro tools by itself is 699.... which is why people buy the eleven rack because it's essentially free...

or its a 350$ rebate on your protools purchase :)

I understand what you're saying. Technically it a new device and because it's not registered before you can register as the Original owner. Still, it's not the price Avis sells them for. Formally it is a second hand unit (just unused and unregistered). Do you know what part of the Original price (€800) is for the Pro Tools? If you know that you also know what the unit would cost without the software.
I agree the reamping is a great featur the POD misses and there are probably more, but please try to compare things on an even base.
By the way 2 x 350 makes 700, the HD500 is 500!
Even without the question if the Eleven Rack is second hand or not, it's certainly not half the price.

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I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. What I'm trying to say is that the competition is really fierce. I'm comparing with HD PRO at $699. In my opinion the HD500 is a much better contender than the HD PRO. But I guess I'm pointing the obvious that LINE 6 already knows. the only advantage that Line 6 has with the HD PRO is the dual path, but for Studio work dual path is rarely needed and  is really redundant. I'm not dumping on the HD series. I think you can get amazing tones from them, but for studio work putting money and features aside the modeling in the Eleven is simply more accurate.

 

What I'm really trying to say in a nut shell:  the Modeling and EQ  must be improved if line 6 wants to remain viable in the modeling for studio guitarists. Currently the only thing that can happen that would be in line 6's advantage if AVID discontinues ELEVEN Rack. 

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I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. What I'm trying to say is that the competition is really fierce. I'm comparing with HD PRO at $699. In my opinion the HD500 is a much better contender than the HD PRO. But I guess I'm pointing the obvious that LINE 6 already knows. the only advantage that Line 6 has with the HD PRO is the dual path, but for Studio work dual path is rarely needed and  is really redundant. I'm not dumping on the HD series. I think you can get amazing tones from them, but for studio work putting money and features aside the modeling in the Eleven is simply more accurate.

 

What I'm really trying to say in a nut shell:  the Modeling and EQ  must be improved if line 6 wants to remain viable in the modeling for studio guitarists. Currently the only thing that can happen that would be in line 6's advantage if AVID discontinues ELEVEN Rack. 

...of course

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I like hearing about the competition here. All of it. Id also like to think it helps keep Line 6 on their toes however naive that may be.

But it also serves the purpose of showing us other options available when they refuse to do just that....

 

A win win for us all Im thinking.... Keep up the good work guys  ;)

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Are you talking about the JCM 800 2204 or the Pleaxi Super Lead 1959? No real experience with the originals, I only observe that any audio clip I listen to seems to have MUCH more gain than a patch with the same Drive in the POD, included

 

 

 

Maybe you could record a clip with you real Plexi on 8 and show me how you can have the same distortion level with 80% on the POD without boosting it in some way or another...

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I'm not terribly interested in recording you a clip at that level, nor are my neighbors and their neighbors. I am familiar with the videos you posted though, and can tell you that for me the podHD plexi gets as much or more gain than is shown in that clip.

 

The plexi is a very sensitive and responsive circuit, and though I don't think the HD is super close accuracy wise, it's apparent gain and crunch does change dramatically between different pickups and guitars, which is true of the real deal. My strat has considerably less crunch through that model than my les Paul...like night and day.

 

That video is a good example of a plexi with PAF humbuckers. If you are playing a set neck humbucker equipped guitar and can't get that much drive, something else is going on.

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I wasn't polemic, I really wanted to know if you\me can do it :) I use the POD with studio monitors and it seems I can't reproduce that gain without using also a compressor or other effects. I use a Gibson SG with stock pickups 490T\490R, so P.A.F like. Peace!

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Kind'a jumping into the middle of this but even my Marshall JCM900 needs a Tube Screamer or some kind of boost/compressor to give it the gain it needs too.  I've back to backed the PODHD against it just to see how close Line6 came with it's modeling.  I was very impressived.

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Mine already does that...  It'll even clear error codes and make the Check Engine light go off.

 

I can also set my PODHD on the floor and it'll automatically vacuum both carpeting and hardwoods completley autonomously.

 

If I pour a little beer on my PODHD, get it slightly drunk, then sweet talk it a little, well I don't want to say what happens next.

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I expect my HD500 will still sound great, there will be some new features I like and some I don't care about, and no matter what is different in the new firmware there is going to be lots of complaining from people who should probably try a different product if the HD doesn't suit their needs.

 

I doubt the EQ labeling will be changed after all this time, don't care if it is or isn't, the EQs work just fine however the parameters are labeled.

 

Doubt there will be global EQ, though I believe this would be a useful addition I have already added my own outboard EQ (it cost me less than $50) so I could not care less whether this is ever added.

 

Reamping is already possible for those clever enough to patch a few cables.

 

Would love to see Model Packs with dozens of new options but the HD has been out for so long without them I do not "expect" them to ever materialize.

 

Have already been informed separate modes for 1/4" and XLR is not possible, I do not "expect" to see that feature on my HD500 ever.

 

Hmmm, maybe there will be something really cool added that no one was expecting, like when they added the deep editing parameters.

 

 

 

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I wasn't polemic, I really wanted to know if you\me can do it :) I use the POD with studio monitors and it seems I can't reproduce that gain without using also a compressor or other effects. I use a Gibson SG with stock pickups 490T\490R, so P.A.F like. Peace!

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Haha, gotcha. I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic, or not. Even so, my god, my plexi on 8 would level the block.

 

I'm surprised you are getting such little gain through the plexi model with the SG. I'm sure you've already checked the pad switch and all that. Hmm...other than throwing the tube comp in front with a transparent threshold and a couple dB gain boost, I'm out of suggestions.

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