FRFR ?

[Old-Rocker]

Now I get it...you're looking to hear two distinct amps simultaneously. I don't use the dual amp patches like that. It's one tone or the other. I set it up this way because I loathe abrupt patch changes, and the drop out (albeit a short one) that always accompanies the switch...especially going from clean to dirty, or vice versa. A dual amp patch plus the expression pedal allows for a seamless transition from one to the other, a gradual morph, if you will.

 

But if your goal is to hear two distinct amp tones together, you really have no choice but to run stereo. Otherwise you'll always be hearing a blend of the two...you need the physical separation. Can't get that with one box no matter who's making it, or how nice a toy it is.

 

I'm not sure how feasible that would be live, anyway. If you're running straight to the PA, to get the effect you want, you're gonna have the two amps panned hard left and right. The two sides of the room are hearing different things. Stereo FX will get lost this way too. If you pan everything up the middle, now you've lost the two separate tones, and may as well have just left everything mono in the first place.

 

For recording, this kind of set-up can be used to great effect...live, not so much. The sound will change depending on where the listener is standing. Gets ugly fast.

Hi,i've sort of hijacked my own thread,with the Dual amp questions,but it's something i'm interested in discussing,would it be better to discuss dual amps in a seperate thread.? 

[cruisinon2]

Hi,i've sort of hijacked my own thread,with the Dual amp questions,but it's something i'm interested in discussing,would it be better to discuss dual amps in a seperate thread.?

Beware the Thread Police...;)

 

I don't think anyone cares. I certainly don't, lol

[Old-Rocker]

I'll carry on with the Dual Amp,L/R,comments,it's still relevant to FOH,as you say.

When I used 2 combos on Stage,they are tight to each other,but the 2 sound are still distinct,but it also blends,if i where using the 500X in Dual Amp/Signal path,i wouldn't expect to pan hard left/right,but to be honest i didn't use the Combos in our PA,the Bass & Drums where mic'd(& of course the Vox) but not the Guitar,it never felt like it needed it.

On the rare occasion we played through a Hire rig,i frankly have no idea what the Sound Guy did with my Amps,i just said i had a different sound from each Amp & left it to whoever was mixing.

As i introduce the 500X  Amps into our set,i'll work out the panning as i go along,as i said earlier in the thread,i've only played the Amp Models through our Mid/Highs at home & the mixer was panned(in the 500X)L/R,but with the combo Amp also in the mix it sounded pretty full,we'll see as we hopefully progress :) .

Back to FRFR,after reading through the posts a few times,i'm beginning to get the idea of what is expected of the Amp Models for on stage sound,i'm starting to get a feeling that it's more like blending a recorded guitar sound through the Foldback & FOH,with a sound presentation more like listening through a good Hi-Fi system,"that's my reference",i know zilch about recording,but i suspect it's similar to a decent Studio Monitor playback.

Does this sound reasonable,or am i wrong again :D ,i'm trying to get an idea where i should be heading when building Amp Tones,i'm not going to say patches,that's way down the road,i'm going to head for 1 good usable "PATCH" for a gig by using the 500X in "manual" 8 switch mode to get me going.

Sorry for rambling on again :)

[mcbeddall]

Yeah typically the sound your shooting for is a mic'd cab being played back through a good system, or at least that's what the modeller is designed to do so generally speaking its a more polished finished sound , you're effectively having more control over how the audience hears you because your supplying the sound guy with the finished article , he might adjust eq slightly to compensate for the room that's all

[DunedinDragon]

I think you're beginning to get a feel for what drives many of us using FRFR rigs Old-Rocker.  Ultimately it's about getting precise control over where our guitar sits in the live mix.  It can be done with a regular amp, but it's just easier and more precise with an FRFR rig.

 

Because you aren't familiar with recording I'll diverge a bit to help you understand a bit more.  One major element in professionally recorded tracks is finding where each instrument will sit in the mix of instruments so it can be clearly heard.  This is a combination of volume, area in the frequency range, and spatial (pan left/right).  By manipulating this three things you create a "sound stage" so that the listener can hear each instrument and voice clearly in a mix in a way that's pleasing to the ear.

 

What modeling and the 500X brings to the table in general is an extraordinary amount of control over one's sound in a way that's similar to the tricks used by recording engineers to make that sort of thing happen.  A physical guitar amp and cabinet will always have a certain timbre to it, and because of that some of the manipulations you might apply on a patch won't achieve the full affect it might have were you to be using an FRFR rig, because the FRFR rig by design targets eliminating these type of colorations.  The result is that when you apply changes to the patch on the 500X, they will be more obvious and therefore help you get to that point of getting the guitar to play nicely within the mix of all the intruments on stage.

 

A big factor in all of this for guitar in particular is clarity and articulation.  Recording engineers go through a lot of manipulations in some cases to achieve this such as combining a mic'd (or dual mic'd) cabinet with a raw DI signal.  However with a FRFR rig this aspect kind of comes for free because the drivers used in FRFR cabinets have gotten so advanced over the last few years that they are, in effect, pretty much the same as studio monitors and therefore by their nature will accurately reflect nuances like pick attack, string separation, and guitar timbre on various different types of guitar and pickup combinations which really helps in isolating the guitar from the rest of the instruments.

 

For some people this may not be as important as it is for some of us.  In my case we play a very wide range of styles and I choose which guitar I'm playing on a given song based on the style of the song.  Therefore if I'm playing a rockabilly sound or early 60's type style I'll likely use my Gretsch, and I want that unique Gretsch sound to come through to the audience because it's an important factor in how that song should sound.  Likewise I'll play my Les Paul for a heavier rock sound and I want that sound to clearly have the identifiable Les Paul mid-scooped sound because it's important to the feel of the song.  All of that is more easily accomplished with a setup that doesn't add any coloration to the sound....therefore for me FRFR is a perfect fit.

 

I know this was long-winded but you seemed to be honestly curious about what brings many people to an FRFR rig and I just wanted to fill in some of the holes in your knowledge about such things.  I hope that helps.

[Old-Rocker]

DunedinDragon.Thanks for the reply,yes you are correct,i am genuinely interested in learning how to make things work,one of the reasons for this is(& for once i won't be flippant about my age),i am getting old,so i try as hard as i can to keep my brain working & learning about things,specially things i've been doing for a lot of my life,i do believe it keeps your brain from seizing up(what bit i've got),i know this is bit of a stretch on a music gear forum,but it's good practice for everybody :).

Yes,it does help & thanks for the information,during my reading up,i've found that the 500X,can be used direct into computer recording software & more importantly can become the playback device,for connection to a monitoring system,i don't want to sound  like i know what i'm talking about,it's what i've read.

So i'm going to load my sons old recording software on to my computer & hopefully get it playing back through my Hi-Fi system(which is pretty good,even if i do say so myself)then i can tweak away at house/wife volumes & know that the eq/sound will be the same,at whatever volume i play at,sounds great in theory :rolleyes: .

Once again thanks to all you guys for keeping my brain going :)

 

 

[cruisinon2]

...then i can tweak away at house/wife volumes & know that the eq/sound will be the same,at whatever volume i play at,sounds great in theory :rolleyes: .

Once again thanks to all you guys for keeping my brain going :)

That's not really the case...volume will always impact your tone, no matter what kind of speakers you're monitoring through, FRFR or no. If you're tweaking at living room volume and take that same patch and try and use it at stage volume, you're gonna have issues...usually a preponderance of bass, screechy highs, and the mids disappear. Volume affects how we perceive sound, and there's no way around that.

[Old-Rocker]

That's not really the case...volume will always impact your tone, no matter what kind of speakers you're monitoring through, FRFR or no. If you're tweaking at living room volume and take that same patch and try and use it at stage volume, you're gonna have issues...usually a preponderance of bass, screechy highs, and the mids disappear. Volume affects how we perceive sound, and there's no way around that.

Thanks,for the advice,i understand what you're telling me & you are of course correct,but to be fair to myself :) i can get the System up to pretty realistic volume levels,so i'm comfortable i would get a pretty reasonable idea of what was going on,or at least good enough to get me somewhere near.

I also have our Yam DSR 115's in the Living Room & can check it through those(when SWMBO is out)but to be honest the Hi-Fi system is way more accurate than the Yams.

[DunedinDragon]

Old-Rocker:

 

Don't worry about the age thing.  I'm 62 and still having a blast learning new things.  That's what keeps us "vintage" guys fresh....  B)

[Old-Rocker]

Old-Rocker:

 

Don't worry about the age thing.  I'm 62 and still having a blast learning new things.  That's what keeps us "vintage" guys fresh....  B)

It's ok for you to talk,you're a young man :)

[Old-Rocker]

Ok,i'm not sure if using FRFR is going to work for me,i've spent hrs.going through the Amp Models & adjusting all the parameters,but i just can't get it right for me.

I'm using our Yam DSR 115's in the living room,which is a reasonable size,at least as big as some of the small pubs we play,i'm probably not getting to gigging volumes,but i'm getting to reasonable levels,the 115's are at 12'o clock(our normal gigging level)but without the gain from the mixer & the Master on the 500X full up.

But when i use the 500X through the Rocker Combo,at similar levels,it just sounds better(to me),although,using all 3 does sound good,really deep & Full.

One thing or sound that's really bothering me with just the Yams,is there is an edge or emphasis to the note,that i just don't here in the Combo,almost like a double hit,with the plec,or maybe a deadening on the fret??,but the main thing is no Depth/Body to the sound

Also with reference to my idea of playing it back through my Hi-Fi system,it sounds crap :( .

Anyway,i'll stick at it,i've never been into using amplification at home,might be better at live practice/gig levels.

The good news is the Drives etc sound great into the Orange,so not money down the drain :D

[mcbeddall]

You must probably need to cut the high and low frequencies more aggressively, you could try a parametric eq or the mid focus eq

[DunedinDragon]

Old-Rocker,

Are you coming out of the HD500X with an XLR or 1/4" line into the DSR?  I come out of the 1/4" line out into my DXR12 which has considerably less rated power than the DSR.  I set my DXR at half volume and I overwhelm everyone on stage if I get anywhere close to 4.5 on my master volume.  There may be some differences in the D-Contour feature, but I wouldn't think it would be that dramatic.  Maybe make sure your HPF and D-Contour switches on the DSR are turned off and that your using Studio/Direct and line as far as outputs.

 

I noticed you mentioned a mixer.  Are you going directly into the DSR from the POD or through a physical mixer inot the DSR?

[Brazzy]

You must probably need to cut the high and low frequencies more aggressively, you could try a parametric eq or the mid focus eq

 

Maybe right, FRFR lets all the highs (everything) through. Trying to cut with parametric might help

[Old-Rocker]

You must probably need to cut the high and low frequencies more aggressively, you could try a parametric eq or the mid focus eq

To be honest,the EQ parameters of the 500X have me completely confused,(i think i said this in a previous post),this may be my real problem with using it.

I have no idea where i'm at with the various EQ models.

I'm completely lost with the values being in %,plus,i don't understand how to interprate the controls on the Parametric model.

[Brazzy]

To be honest,the EQ parameters of the 500X have me completely confused,(i think i said this in a previous post),this may be my real problem with using it.

I have no idea where i'm at with the various EQ models.

I'm completely lost with the values being in %,plus,i don't understand how to interprate the controls on the Parametric model.

 

I would like to try to explain it to you but I've got somewhere I gotta go. Peter Hanmer had a great video.

 

 

Check it out he explains a good way to cut with the para eq. I'll be back after I go to the dentist, lol.

 

Another thread about the EQ usage. http://line6.com/support/topic/3953-i-just-discovered-the-value-of-eq/

 

and as below the global eq is of use too.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Brazzy

[cruisinon2]

To be honest,the EQ parameters of the 500X have me completely confused,(i think i said this in a previous post),this may be my real problem with using it.

I have no idea where i'm at with the various EQ models.

I'm completely lost with the values being in %,plus,i don't understand how to interprate the controls on the Parametric model.

Use the global EQ...everything is in Hz and dB, as the good Lord intended. Some will say it's only to be used to EQ "for the room", but if you're finding that most or all of your patches are suffering from the same issues, then this is the quickest and easiest fix.

[Old-Rocker]

Old-Rocker,

Are you coming out of the HD500X with an XLR or 1/4" line into the DSR?  I come out of the 1/4" line out into my DXR12 which has considerably less rated power than the DSR.  I set my DXR at half volume and I overwhelm everyone on stage if I get anywhere close to 4.5 on my master volume.  There may be some differences in the D-Contour feature, but I wouldn't think it would be that dramatic.  Maybe make sure your HPF and D-Contour switches on the DSR are turned off and that your using Studio/Direct and line as far as outputs.

 

I noticed you mentioned a mixer.  Are you going directly into the DSR from the POD or through a physical mixer inot the DSR?

Hi,Dunedin Dragon.I'm going XLR out direct to XLR(with Mic selected) on the DSR,D-Contour is always off,i've tried HPF filter both in & out,i'm not using our Mixing desk so there will be extra gain from the Channel available,but i don't think level is the problem,i suspect it's the frequency range,i'll have to try & get to grips with it. 

 

I would like to try to explain it to you but I've got somewhere I gotta go. Peter Hammer had a great video.

 

 

Check it out he explains a good way to cut with the para eq. I'll be back after I go to the dentist, lol.

 

Another thread about the EQ usage.

Ok,thanks i'll watch it,i think i may have watched a video of his on YT,

Good luck,i'd rather than try & get the eq sorted out on the 500X than go to the dentist,but i'm lucky nowadays,i can put my top teeth in a jar(after an accident) :D

[Old-Rocker]

Use the global EQ...everything is in Hz and dB, as the good Lord intended. Some will say it's only to be used to EQ "for the room", but if you're finding that most or all of your patches are suffering from the same issues, then this is the quickest and easiest fix.

I thought the Global EQ was only available when Combo Front is selected?,or is it available on Studio/Direct.?

[Smashcraaft]

Global EQ is always available.

 

Old Rocker, please be sure to place the PEQ after (!) the amp if following P.Hammers Video advice. Idiot that I am I placed it in front of the amp and didn't get it to work.

[cruisinon2]

I thought the Global EQ was only available when Combo Front is selected?,or is it available on Studio/Direct.?

Global EQ has nothing to do with the output mode. It'll work just fine with studio/direct.

[duncann]

It doesn't work with some of the outputs. Not entirely sure which ones, but one of the Line 6 outputs rings a bell, and possibly USB.

[Old-Rocker]

Ok,guys.i give up,where do i find Global EQ :)

 

 

IGNORE FOUND IT THANKS

 

I think old & slow is relevant here :D

[mcbeddall]

That's a great video , really simplifies the eq process

[Old-Rocker]

I've done some tweaking with the Global EQ,yes better thanks,i have no idea what the frequency range of the Model Amps are,but it sounded like if i cut it at 6.5k,it was an improvement i could hear,does that sound anywhere near right,i'm really not used to these sort of adjustments on a Guitar sound.

The video is brilliant,i can't make it happen like Peter does,but i suspect he's knows his way around this stuff,just a little bit more than me :D ,if i'm reading it right he identified 2 problem areas & cured them with 2 parametrics?,funny his playing style is a bit like mine,except he's good,very good.

Thanks,guys for your help.

[mcbeddall]

Yeah he's cutting the low eq in the cab parameters (most amps somewhere between 100-200 hz will sound better, amps that are particularly boomy might need 200-300 hz)

And he's cutting a frequency around 3khz with the parametric eq, in the video he cut them around about the same place for all amps (which would suggest the cut your making may be a little high, but all equipment is different so you could be spot on)

 

Generally speaking a good eq tip is to always cut before boosting eq's

You can end up boosting high frequencies to get the guitar to cut through which will likely end up sounding harsh , when all that was really needed was to cut some of the lows to make things sound clearer

[mcbeddall]

The whole process may have been less necessary before when you were using a regular guitar cab as the cab naturally cuts some of the problem frequencies out

With a full range speaker however you're getting all the highs and lows faithfully reproduced much like what a recording engineer would capture in a studio with a mic, he would then eq it for the mix

[cruisinon2]

It doesn't work with some of the outputs. Not entirely sure which ones, but one of the Line 6 outputs rings a bell, and possibly USB.

It won't work with L6 Link, for some reason...I forget why. Not sure about USB. But those are physical outputs...the output mode doesn't matter. Global EQ will work with any of them.

[Brazzy]

I've done some tweaking with the Global EQ,yes better thanks,i have no idea what the frequency range of the Model Amps are,but it sounded like if i cut it at 6.5k,it was an improvement i could hear,does that sound anywhere near right,i'm really not used to these sort of adjustments on a Guitar sound.

The video is brilliant,i can't make it happen like Peter does,but i suspect he's knows his way around this stuff,just a little bit more than me :D ,if i'm reading it right he identified 2 problem areas & cured them with 2 parametrics?,funny his playing style is a bit like mine,except he's good,very good.

Thanks,guys for your help.

 

I was wondering how you made out.

 

Every now and then I play around with the EQ's in different ways to find out how I might be able to use them and it gives me a better understanding of them. I always make sure I limit my tweaking time so I play more and tweak less.

 

The other day I was playing with just using the full amp models (no effects at all) through my Spider Jam Aux input and had a pretty good time. I never really played much with no effects like even a little reverb before so it was kind of a liberating experience, lol.

 

I went to the dentist but didn't get my teeth cleaned, was too expensive and I didn't re-up the insurance. My teeth feel great anyway, lol. They did a great job on me in the last 6 years or so. They got me to floss now, I'm good to go for a while. :) Besides the dentist had "Dragon Breath", lol.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Brazzy

[Old-Rocker]

Yeah he's cutting the low eq in the cab parameters (most amps somewhere between 100-200 hz will sound better, amps that are particularly boomy might need 200-300 hz)

And he's cutting a frequency around 3khz with the parametric eq, in the video he cut them around about the same place for all amps (which would suggest the cut your making may be a little high, but all equipment is different so you could be spot on)

 

Generally speaking a good eq tip is to always cut before boosting eq's

You can end up boosting high frequencies to get the guitar to cut through which will likely end up sounding harsh , when all that was really needed was to cut some of the lows to make things sound clearer

Thanks,for the reply,i have to admit i'm struggling A LOT with this frequency issue,however my take on the Peter Hanmer video is,he was showing how to isolate a particular frequency band,& then reducing the Gain until the frequency blended better in the overall Amp Model sound,i didn't read it as cutting any frequencies above a certain level(e.g.6.5K),but as i said i'm struggling,to the point where i'm trying to get my thoughts together to ask the Forum some questions & to put my thoughts/views on the whole subject FRFR/AMPS/AMP MODELS,i'm not sure about tagging it in this thread or start another thread.

 

I was wondering how you made out.

 

Every now and then I play around with the EQ's in different ways to find out how I might be able to use them and it gives me a better understanding of them. I always make sure I limit my tweaking time so I play more and tweak less.

 

The other day I was playing with just using the full amp models (no effects at all) through my Spider Jam Aux input and had a pretty good time. I never really played much with no effects like even a little reverb before so it was kind of a liberating experience, lol.

 

I went to the dentist but didn't get my teeth cleaned, was too expensive and I didn't re-up the insurance. My teeth feel great anyway, lol. They did a great job on me in the last 6 years or so. They got me to floss now, I'm good to go for a while. :) Besides the dentist had "Dragon Breath", lol.

Glad the dentist trip went ok,i agree about the limiting the time on sessions,this EQ question is frying my Brain & it dosen't  take much nowadays.

I have never ever used effects in terms of Delays/Modulation etc,the only thing i've ever plugged into my Amps in the past is a GE7,but i can see that changing.

[mcbeddall]

Yeah the skill is identifying the bad frequency so when you're sweeping up and down the frequency range don't rush that bit , if you don't hear anything really bad boost the gain on the parametric a bit more

Once you think you have the frequency drop the gain to cut it

Might help if you search YouTube for "guitar eq" you will turn up some videos of guys doing eq on guitars in various DAWs, it's exactly the same principle but it might help your understanding as they will have a spectrum analyser to look at and it might help with it being more visual

[Brazzy]

Thanks,for the reply,i have to admit i'm struggling A LOT with this frequency issue,however my take on the Peter Hanmer video is,he was showing how to isolate a particular frequency band,& then reducing the Gain until the frequency blended better in the overall Amp Model sound,i didn't read it as cutting any frequencies above a certain level(e.g.6.5K),but as i said i'm struggling,to the point where i'm trying to get my thoughts together to ask the Forum some questions & to put my thoughts/views on the whole subject FRFR/AMPS/AMP MODELS,i'm not sure about tagging it in this thread or start another thread.

 

Glad the dentist trip went ok,i agree about the limiting the time on sessions,this EQ question is frying my Brain & it dosen't  take much nowadays.

I have never ever used effects in terms of Delays/Modulation etc,the only thing i've ever plugged into my Amps in the past is a GE7,but i can see that changing.

 

I understand completely. Here's a thread that also helped me a lot http://line6.com/support/topic/14480-some-guitar-eq-tips/ by arislaf.

 

This is the one that really helped me at first. http://www.audio-iss...requency-fixes/

 

I have an Electro Harmonix Tube EQ which is a parametric eq. It has a "Q" which can narrow or widen the focus point, a frequency knob which sweeps the band and gain knob. It also has a Bass and Treble knob which can cut or boost.

 

If I plug it between the pre amp and power amp of my DT50HD or Valveking II 20MH it really thickens the tone quite a bit and allows me to shift like a wah with a pedal. I don't use the pedal part much but when I want a thicker tone I turn it on.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Brazzy

[Brazzy]

If you feel that your sound can be described in any of the ways below here, you can see where to do some cutting by using the EQ FXs

 

 

Now that's #*^*&% Awesome LOL

[BillBee]

What's a Hz? Some kind of %?

 

Nice one.

 

-Honky

[Brazzy]

now that you've made me get to 1001 points you make me feel like a binary code!!

 

I saw that coming, was just bracing myself, lol. I said to myself "oh snap I triggered 1001" and shook my head. :)

[BillBee]

Wait till we convert you to hex! :P

[Old-Rocker]

I'm still at it with my attempts to get an Amp Model,that i could gig with without my Guitar amplifier,sadly nowhere near :( .

All i'm trying to emulate is a good amplified Guitar sound,no effects whatsoever,just the Amp Models,but i'm still getting a way better sound from the Orange Rocker & using the 500X for adding to the Combo sound(mostly drive),the good news is i'm getting a much better sound using the 500X drive pedals into the Natural channel,than i am from the "DIRTY" channel without the 500X,i hope i'm explaining this ok.

I'd started to think maybe it's the DSR115's that i'm struggling with,but at live practice last night i tried micing up the Rocker 30 into the full PA Tops & Subs,it sounded really good(we don't normally mic the Guitar Amp),so i'm assuming if i'm getting a good mic'd sound.i should be a able to get a good direct Modeled sound,because the Modeling is simply taking the place of the Orange/Mic feeding into the PA system,is this correct?.

I'll keep at it,but it's not ideal trying to set it up at home,even at reasonable volumes,we'll see,i'm not into giving up easily.

I have to add this,if i buy any given Guitar Amp(of my taste)after a few knob tweaks i could gig with it.

i don't really understand why,if i load the same Amp model into the 500X,i don't get at least a usable sound.

Line 6 must play these models through various types of Amplified playback & think yes that's a good start,the customer can go from there,so,maybe/possibly/almost certainly.it's just me.

I still find the EQ models & the controls,don't function in a simple enough way'.

But much more important than all this, leisure 491 ,i wish you all the best.

[DunedinDragon]

Old-Rocker,

 

Getting a good mic'd sound from the Rocker 30 isn't exactly the same as going direct unfortunately.  You have to remember the Rocker 30 is a much more limited range speaker and cabinet than your Yamaha DSR's.  What Line6 didn't do a very good job at in my opinion is applying the same limited range response on their cabinet emulations, so you pretty much have to compensate for that discrepency using the Global EQ facilities...at least that's what I do.  Once I discovered that little detail everything else fell into place for me.

 

Because you and I are using very similar FRFR speaker setups why don't you give my settings a try on your Global EQ and see if that makes the same difference for you as it did for me.  I only make two adjustments on Global EQ.  Make sure your Global EQ is set to ON then set the Low Cut Filter to 80 Hz.  Set the High Cut filter to 6.5KHz.  Make sure the HPF and D-Contour switches are in the off position on the DSR115.  Select various amps and cabinets and see how that works for you.

[kpsion]

Hi All

 

Dunedin Dragon, i don't undestand in FRFR you use a combo or stack output mode ?  Cause i've read GEQ on pod isn't effective in studio/direct mode.

[DunedinDragon]

I don't know where you read it, but yes I use studio/direct mode and GEQ works just fine.