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Clarification on use with an amp FX loop


PaulKirton
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Hi all.

 

I'm considering buying a Firehawk as a replacement for Stompboxes in a live setting. Getting fed up with the spaghetti of leads and power cables, plus this would give me lots of additional pedal options at minimum cost.

 

I'm interested in the amp modelling but only in a recording / practice environment, as I have a nice valve amp I'm happy with for live performance.

 

I have scoured this forum and various online resources, but I can't seem to get clarity on this point:

 

I want to put drive / distortion / boost effects in front of my amp at input stage ie. Instrument in on the front of the amp. I like the sound of my amp and want to preserve this as much as possible, albeit overdriven by the above kind of effects where required.

 

I then want to run delay / reverb / mod effects separately through my amp's effects loop to colour the sound of the amp's pre-amp output, before sending to the power section.

 

This is the way I manage my set up at the moment with stomp boxes and it works really well for me. Does the Firehawk allow you to do this?

 

I wouldn't want to run distortion / overdrive through my effects loop, and neither would I want to run reverb / phasers etc into the amp's input.

 

This issue is what has put me off multi effects in the past, along with lacklustre digital modelling (which I'm satisfied that the Firehawk doesn't suffer from).

 

If anyone could clarify on this point I would be happy to take the plunge!

 

Cheers, P

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During your research here did you come across something called 4CM? That is the 4-cable method of connecting a multi-fx unit like Firehawk to an external amp, providing exactly the flexibility that you want. You can search for and read many various threads in this forum, but here's the outline:

 

Connections:

Guitar -> Firehawk (FH) guitar input -> FH FX Send -> amp Guitar input -> amp FX Send -> FH FX Return -> FH Out -> amp FX Return

 

In your FH presets place the FX Loop where you want your amp to be, after your pre-amp FX and before your post-amp FX.

 

This setup also allows you to experiment with the FH amp models if you ever want to do that. Just set up your preset to not use the FH FX Loop (or just turn it off), and do not assign a cab/mic combination. This will bypass your amp's preamp and use only its power amp and cab.

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That's great thanks Silverhead.

 

I have read extensively on the 4 cable operation, however from the entries I have read I have been unable to establish whether this allows you to split different effects between amp input and amp effects loop, pre and post the amp's preamp. Without having used the unit in person I have been feeling around in the dark!

 

Your reply is brilliant and clears this up for me.

 

I'm a big fan of my OD and Boost pedals (I favour a Klon clone plus an Xotic EP booster to drive the amp a bit harder and give some additional boost for solos). Using the four cable method, will the built in effects produce a similar amp response? The reason for the question is that I have read a number of entries that suggest the unit is great to go straight into a desk or powered speakers, but can effectively reduce a guitar amp to the role of glorified PA.

 

As much as I crave the simplicity (and tone shaping options) of a one box solution, I've found the best sounds come from the interaction of effects and a decent amp working in partnership.

 

Can the FH drive and interact well with an amp to this extent, or is it a choice between 100% digital modelling or good old valves and stomp boxes?

 

Thanks, P

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I'll have to let others chime in here. Personally I don't use 4CM. My knowledge about it is theoretical, namely I know how the connections work and what the overall idea is. But your question is for those with the real life experience, which I don't have.

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I have used 4cm but I haven't gigged with it a lot and I decided to go down the route of a powered speaker but for different reasons than the sound

When I used 4cm I found the stomps worked well positioned in front of the preamp , you can of course use your existing pedals in front if you find you prefer their sound, you can integrate real pedals in with the firehawk , but you won't know if you like it until you try it, I decided early on that I really liked the sound of just the firehawk and I used a fender mustang iii as a power amp, I got some really great sounds that way , another thing I noticed when doing my research into this unit is there aren't that many good sounding YouTube videos about, don't let that put you off , in my opinion it sounds better than the hd500

 

If I were you I'd download the app and have a look at the available effects and have a play with the chain, I know you won't be able to hear how it sounds but you will get an idea of how you can put a chain together and if you can include the types of effects you want

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Thanks McBeddall. Appreciate you chipping in.

Have to say, I'm a bit surprised the Line 6 gang haven't pitched in given this would be a key barrier for a lot of guitarists, and that the product is less than 6 months old. I guess they are all focused on the Helix now. looks great on YouTube, but you could buy a very nice (real) amp for the same money...

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Yeah that's how I used the fender mustang (output of firehawk straight into the fx return of the mustang) the mustang is good with modellers used that way in my experience, at least when you consider how cheap it is, as I said earlier I got a great sound that way. I decided to move to a full range speaker because I wanted to be able to output straight to the pa and know that I was hearing what the audience hears, also I wanted to be able to use the same tones to record direct.

I hear that if you have a tube power section in your amp it can sound even better as that adds a bit of warmth to the whole thing but I never tried the firehawk that way as my tube amp got sold some time ago

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Thanks Mc. I saw that Silver suggests turning off the modeled cabs and mics if you use 4CM. But I continue to get a great sound either way. I'm gonna give this a test at an outdoor gig in Malibu next Sunday! I'm just gonna use that one cable method though. I'll let you know.

Jim

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... I saw that Silver suggests turning off the modeled cabs and mics if you use 4CM. ....

That's only if you are using the Firehawk's amp modeling, in which case you are using your physical amp as the cab with no need for mic since the cab speaker provides the sound output direct to the room.

 

If you want to use Firehawk for FX only (no amp, as the OP prefers) then you need the 4CM to use the physical amp's preamp.

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Have you guys tried just a one cable method going into the power amp out in a conventional fender or other amp? I like 4CM but in a live gig that's a lot of cables! Just wondering!

Jim

This is what I'm doing with my Peavey Bandit. Sounds pretty good. I was plugging into the effects return of my mustang but for some reason, it does not bypass the preamp. They designed it that way. The only way to bypass the preamp was to plug into the Aux jack. Fender support confirmed this.
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This is what I'm doing with my Peavey Bandit. Sounds pretty good. I was plugging into the effects return of my mustang but for some reason, it does not bypass the preamp. They designed it that way. The only way to bypass the preamp was to plug into the Aux jack. Fender support confirmed this.

Which mustang have you got?

 

I had a mustang iii version 2 which had the fx loop before the preamp but if you update to the latest firmware you can move the fx loop to pre or post

Definitely worth your while updating

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Yeah they changed it in an update due to complaints because version 1 was post preamp only it made no sense that version 2 was pre preamp only

You can move it in the global settings of the amp if you have the latest firmware

I can't remember the firmware number and I sold the amp last month

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Yes much much better than having the fx loop in the old position (you may have noticed that changing amp models on the mustang changes the tone of what's coming out of the firehawk so you end up having to use "studio preamp"), I actually got a very good live sound and I only switched to a FRFR speaker because I wanted to make use of the cab sims and be closer to my recorded tones .

I used to have a zoom g5 and that also sounded great through the mustang, I figure that the speaker is designed or chosen to work well with models and the power amp in the mustang doesn't colour the tone too much

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  • 1 year later...

Which mustang have you got?

 

I had a mustang iii version 2 which had the fx loop before the preamp but if you update to the latest firmware you can move the fx loop to pre or post

Definitely worth your while updating

Hello everyone. Hi mcdeball, I hope you can help me. I have the same Mustang III V2 and recently a Variax JTV69 and a Firehawk FX. I can not get them to sound half well together, and I'm going crazy. If I put it through the FX Loop the Mustang makes a very loud background noise, so I have to do it by the normal guitar input that sounds clean and using the preamp studio. It sounds better with the Amp output, but at too little volume, so I have to raise the Firehawk volume to the maximum. Yesterday I updated the firmware to version 2.2 to be able to change the position of the Fx Loop as you explain here, but apparently everything remains the same, there are no differences in the menu. How or where can I reconfigure the Fx loop?
 
In any case the emulations of the Variax have disappointed me enough, but that is another issue.
 
Thank you.
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