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Amp Choice For Hd500... Not Dt Amps.


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#1 Robzebr

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 05:28 PM

I have a HD500 and a Blackstar HT-5.... I've been looking at amps for awhile as an upgrade...

 

Some of the things that I have read are....

 

"If you plug a HD500 into the front of an amp it can be muddy as its preamp on top of preamp"

 

"If you plug a HD500 in the loop but still run you guitar into the amp front.. same thing preamp on top of preamp"

 

"If you plug the HD500 into the FX return and plug the guitar into the HD500 its not preamp on top of preamp ... but you are bypassing the amps .. preamp... So why drop big bucks on an amp if you aren't going to use its preamp... That's what you bought it for..."

 

"You have to use FRFR speakers with a modeler, won't sound right into a regular amp"

 

So I guess my question is.... Why drop the cash on an amp upgrade (head) if in order to get the best sound with the HD500 you can't use the new amps preamp....?

 

Maybe stick the HD500 in the new amps loop and have the first patch on the HD500 with no preamp selected.  This way the new amp can be used for whatever it can do... distortion etc... and then when I want a amp model .. just put it on the clean channel.. and hit a different patch on the 500 engaging a model..  If I want to go back to the main amp .. just hit the first patch on the 500 removing any preamp selections....  It would still be preamp on top of preamp but maybe using the clean channel it wouldn't muddy the sound...?

 

Any thoughts?   This is not about the DT amps... I'm not talking about them... just other amps in the pricier ranges....

 

Thanks,

 

Bob

 

 


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#2 ethyl80

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:47 PM

My JC120 (hd500 studio setting) into the fx return keeps up with drummer and bassist in loud punk band just fine
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#3 Robzebr

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:01 PM

Right but by doing that ... you aren't using the preamp in the JC120....  I had to check... Thats the Roland correct?  Jazz Chorus Amp... Solid State?  I found this on a forum... 

 

"You want crystal clear sound? This is your amp. It can get ridiculously loud if needed. If you look at most amp modelers they have the JC-120 included for clean sounds. This is a solid state amp so you won't get the warm, honky sound of a tube amp but it is surprisingly warm for a solid state amp. I have found, however that if I use my visualsound Jekyll & Hyde pedal I can get pretty killer distortion warmth and depth. It is a great backend for a Line 6 POD. It also makes a great acoustic amp too."

 

It might be a different issue ... tube amp vs solid state...   Maybe with a solid state amp it doesn't matter that the POD becomes the preamp as its digital...?    Maybe what I was reading was related to tube amps only... not solid state...

 

Thanks...


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#4 johnnyayyy

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:09 PM

I have a HD500 and a Blackstar HT-5.... I've been looking at amps for awhile as an upgrade...

Some of the things that I have read are....

"If you plug a HD500 into the front of an amp it can be muddy as its preamp on top of preamp"

"If you plug a HD500 in the loop but still run you guitar into the amp front.. same thing preamp on top of preamp"

"If you plug the HD500 into the FX return and plug the guitar into the HD500 its not preamp on top of preamp ... but you are bypassing the amps .. preamp... So why drop big bucks on an amp if you aren't going to use its preamp... That's what you bought it for..."

"You have to use FRFR speakers with a modeler, won't sound right into a regular amp"

So I guess my question is.... Why drop the cash on an amp upgrade (head) if in order to get the best sound with the HD500 you can't use the new amps preamp....?

Maybe stick the HD500 in the new amps loop and have the first patch on the HD500 with no preamp selected. This way the new amp can be used for whatever it can do... distortion etc... and then when I want a amp model .. just put it on the clean channel.. and hit a different patch on the 500 engaging a model.. If I want to go back to the main amp .. just hit the first patch on the 500 removing any preamp selections.... It would still be preamp on top of preamp but maybe using the clean channel it wouldn't muddy the sound...?

Any thoughts? This is not about the DT amps... I'm not talking about them... just other amps in the pricier ranges....

Thanks,

Bob


You may wish to consider the "4 cable method", this will give you selectable access to the amplifier's preamp and the HD modeling on a patch by patch basis.

here's a vid from earlier today where the user explains how to set up the amp and Pod HD to work well together, settings will likely vary from amp to amp:

http://line6.com/sup...50-iii-50-watt/
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#5 brue58ski

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:13 AM

Right but by doing that ... you aren't using the preamp in the JC120....  I had to check... Thats the Roland correct?  Jazz Chorus Amp... Solid State?  I found this on a forum... 

 

No.  What he's talking about bypasses the preamp and only uses the solid state power amp.  It works.  Use the direct output mode.


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#6 Robzebr

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 04:04 AM

Thanks.  I'll go back and reread the 4 cable method... 

 

"What he's talking about bypasses the preamp and only uses the solid state power amp.  It works.  Use the direct output mode."

 

Bypasses the preamp in the JC120...(?)   right so the HD500 is the preamp based on this statement?

 

It looked like the 4 cable method used the amps preamp and then used the HD500 for effects in the loop....

 

I want the modeling as well... so then the issue is if you come into the front of the amp... and then use the 500 to model an amp in the loop its preamp on top of preamp...

 

I was experimenting last night putting the 500 direct to the amps FX return...  it definitely sounds better...  when bypassing the amps preamp....  but that gets back to the original question... if it sounds better going direct to the loop... why spend the bucks on a better amp if I'm not going to use the new amps preamp...?

 

I'm going to experiment tonight with the 4 cable method...

 

Thanks...


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#7 TheRealZap

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 04:16 AM

why the hd500? the JC120 distortion should have you covered....

 

:D  :lol:  :o  :lol:  :D

(i've actually never heard a worse distortion... can't imagine how that never got fixed in the 40ish years that models been out)

 

My JC120 (hd500 studio setting) into the fx return keeps up with drummer and bassist in loud punk band just fine


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#8 ethyl80

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 08:17 AM

I've run the 4cm method with the Pod and the JC120, but I spent too much time getting the preamp settings to mimic my home-studio settings. Plugging into the FX return (bypassing JC preamp and only using the more than ample power-amp) my sounds sound great in studio direct mode with very little additional tweakign needed (or none at all depending on the room and the amp model I'm running). If I'm far from a wall, I might increase my mids on a patch, maybe some bass, but that's it. Of course, this is my mileage, and what works for my ears.


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#9 partytrain

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 10:58 AM

Another vote for the 4cm method. I've used my hd500 with a fender mustang for smaller gigs and my Koch multi tone for big ones. Both with great results. Patch 1a on my hd500 is an effects only patch when I wanna use the tones from the amp.
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#10 joel_brown

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 11:51 AM

I run the PODHD using Studio Out into the Effect Returns of a pair of Marshall JCM900s.  Yes I'm not using the pre-amp but I am using the EL-34 tube power amps.  Plus I run stereo when playing live and spread the amps/cabs very far apart.  I've tried various ways of pluging into the pre-amp and certain effects running through the effect return, etc. etc.   Even had effects pedals over the years too.

 

The way I do it may not be typical,  but so far that's how I like it the best.

 

A friend of mine does it the same way with his Fractal AXE.  He's the one who suggested it to me.


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#11 johnnyayyy

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:10 PM

Thanks.  I'll go back and reread the 4 cable method... 

 

"What he's talking about bypasses the preamp and only uses the solid state power amp.  It works.  Use the direct output mode."

 

Bypasses the preamp in the JC120...(?)   right so the HD500 is the preamp based on this statement?

 

It looked like the 4 cable method used the amps preamp and then used the HD500 for effects in the loop....

 

I want the modeling as well... so then the issue is if you come into the front of the amp... and then use the 500 to model an amp in the loop its preamp on top of preamp...

 

I was experimenting last night putting the 500 direct to the amps FX return...  it definitely sounds better...  when bypassing the amps preamp....  but that gets back to the original question... if it sounds better going direct to the loop... why spend the bucks on a better amp if I'm not going to use the new amps preamp...?

 

I'm going to experiment tonight with the 4 cable method...

 

Thanks...

 

The Pod HD has 512 preset locations. The four cable method gives you the option of progamming each of those presets to use either the amps preamp or the HD modeling without any re-patching of cables or switching of amp channels, all switching done in the HD itself.

 

Example: program preset 1A to use Amplifier preamp, 2A to bypass amplifier preamp and use modeled amp instead. Switch HD to 1A and you have the reguilar amp sound, switch to 1B and you have the sound of the HD without any coloration from the amplifiers preamp. Try it you might like it.

 

Here is a detailed guide:

 

" Using POD HD500 in a 4CM Setup

Over the last few days I've been trying out the HD500 set up in the four cable method which I used to use with my Line 6 M13.

I  thought that way I could make use of my Bugera's pre-amp when I  wanted  to rather than the modelling and also bung my Blackstar HT-Dual  into  the mix too.

At first I couldn't quite get it to sound as good as  the M13 did but  some trial and error has got things sorted out. Hence  my post - for  anyone else trying to set up a HD500 to do the same (one  caveat being  I'm going to continue assuming you've got a regular serial  FX loop  without a line/stomp switch).

#

...

I'll  assume you know how to set up the four cables for the four cable   method. There are a couple of hardware switches you need to set the   HD500 to.

Firstly the 1/4" out switch should be set to line. The  output switch  for the HD500's FX loop should also be set to line. And  within the POD's  settings you need to set the output to either combo  power amp or stack  power amp. You'll also need to make sure you create a  patch with an FX  Loop block enabled. When using a HD500 like this you  should have its  master volume on full.

I set a patch up like that  in a new playlist I named 4CM, calling the  preset "Empty 4CM". I can  then copy it to any other preset position  before creating new settings.

Now  as things stand this setup won't exactly sound any good. And  that's  what I've been struggling with. Until a lightbulb went off in my  head.  The problem is that you want/need a line signal to the power amp,  but  you want a stomp level signal fed to the pre-amp. With these  settings  the HD500 is going to be sending a line signal to both - and  the result  is a less than pleasing lack of dynamics and richness in the  pre-amp  tone.

This is actually pretty easy to solve. You just need to go  into the  setting on the HD500's FX Loop block. On the send setting you  just  reduce the send level by 7-10db. I tried 10db at first and it  sounded  crap through my Bugera V22. I finally settled on 7db as the  setting that  made my amp sound like I didn't have the HD500 connected  to it (which  is what we're trying to achieve before adding FX).

The  result is that any effect in your HD500 before the loop is sent  to the  physical amp pre-amp at stomp level, but anything that appears in  the  amp's FX Loop runs at line level.

Now I don't necessarily want to  use this setup when using the HD500  modelling. This 4CM setup is just  for when I want to make full use of my  amp, I also added my HT-Dual  between the HD and the amp, and it sounds  great with stacking drives  from the HD500 into the HT-Dual.

Now for when I just want to run  with the modelling into the power amp  I've found I don't actually have  to make any changes to the cables at  all. I can leave it all set up.

I  just switch to the playlist with all my modelling patches and these   automatically cut out my Bugera's pre-amp because they don't have the   HD500's FX Loop in use. The output of the HD500 is already running   straight into the Bugera's poweramp. There's one thing to be careful of   when doing this though. Some amps have their FX return AFTER the  master  volume, which means all of a sudden the HD500's master volume  becomes  the master of the amp too. So best to turn it right down  before  switching to a simple HD500 > power amp patch.

Hope that helps any of you trying to make use of the HD500 with real amps and the 4CM."


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#12 Robzebr

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 04:22 PM

Thank You!

 

I found this on the 4 cable method explained  pdf...  this is exactly what I want to do....

 

"If your Multi-FX has amp modelling built in, you can choose to use the modelled pre-amp instead of the Amp’s pre-amp. Better still, you can switch between the modelled and amplifier pre-amps by switching the Multi-FX FX loop off and the Amp modelling on. This can all be configured at the Multi-FX and switched in/out like any other patch."

 

Yeah all I want to do is use the modeling in the HD500 but be able to disengage it and then use the preamp in my amp as the tone...

 

Sweet ... I'll play with this ...this weekend...

 

Thank you!


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#13 ftuller

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:51 PM

I use a blues jr. It doesn't have an effects return so you can't use the 4 cable method. Just plug straight in.

I use studio/direct and the full amp blackface 'lux vib. Also input 1 guitar and input 2 variax.

I tried the "correct" combo amp output options and it didn't sound as good. I tried using the pre models and it didn't sound as good.

One of my bandmates also uses a blues jr with studio/direct but he uses the pre models.
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#14 Crusty_Old_Rocker

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 03:27 AM

Really, if you're not going to be taking advantage of the matching power amp to preamp capabilities of the DT amps then the next best option is to use the full amp modelling in the HD500 into a FRFR amplified speaker.

 

Running pre amps from the HD500 into the power amp of a guitar amp only offers a single type of power amp for the 30 different preamps, this won't sound right.  If you try getting a Fender Twin sound using a VOX AC30, it just won't sound right, just like putting a VOX AC30 preamp into a Fender Deluxe power amp.

 

I have tried all different amplifications with the full range of POD products and when it comes to getting the full amp and cab models sounding right, you're better off using a PA speaker.  The exception to this came about with the POD HD because the best result comes from the DT amps if you choose to use the modelled preamps in the POD HD with the valve power amp from the DT amps.

 

So, if you don't want to go down the DT amp path, go with a good FRFR solution.

 

Cheers,

 

Crusty


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#15 vidaljuanes

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:48 AM

Hola, de la respuesta numero #11 me podrías ayudar con e tema de dejar en modo line la salida. existe un switch al lado del pedal de volumen del HD 500 que debo dejarlo en modo Line verdad?
y luego dices que el interruptor de salida del loop de efectos también. es correcto?

Luego en la cantidad de SEN y Return, seleccionar 7 db en el sen del loop de efectos. ahora yo tengo un Blackstar 1046L6. que debo conseguir?

desde ya gracias.

 

Hello, response number # 11 you could help me with and subject of leaving the output line mode. there is a switch next to the volume pedal that I leave HD 500 Line mode right?
and then you say that the output switch also effects loop. is that correct?

Then in the amount of SEN and Return, select 7 db in the effects loop sen. Now I have a 1046L6 Blackstar. I should get?

from already thank you.


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#16 Robzebr

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:55 AM

Thank you!  This is what I am wrestling with...  I have a Blackstar Ht-5 5 watt tube amp that has an effects loop... 

 

Its a nice little inexpensive starter amp... and I have an HD500...

 

I got the 4 cable method to work using the FXLoop where I could set a patch so the only thing in the chain was the Blackstar preamp and power amp...

 

On another patch I got it to work using just an amp model...  but yes its running into the power amp section of the Blackstar HT-5... so its this issue.....  "Running pre amps from the HD500 into the power amp of a guitar amp only offers a single type of power amp for the 30 different preamps, this won't sound right."

 

On another patch using the Dual Path I was able to get both the Blackstar and a modeled amp in the chain at the same time...using the FXLoop on the Blackstar path A side... and by setting the input to "same"... with both going to the power section of the Blackstar out to a 2x12... and the POD mixer able to adjust both....

 

I'm trying to not screw up the purchase decision...  I want to get a L2t so I can do your suggestion of having a FRFR for the modeled amps...  Then I could still utilize the Blackstar with its preamp and power amp into the 2x12 ... along with the modeled amp going out to the L2t in FRFR fashion....

 

Somewhere down the road I'm going to want to upgrade the Blackstar amp....

 

On one of the threads... the comment was made (somebody's opinion) to not even bother trying to use modeled amps on anything less than a higher end amp.... The reason being that the cheaper amps are just not able to do justice to a modeled amp sound...

 

I was looking at the DT25 and the Mesa 5:25 or 5:50.  That is what I am wrestling with... I like the Mesas 5 watt mode. I wish the DT25 had a 5 watt mode that wasn't modeled in "low volume" mode...  I'm having a mental block with the amp side of things...  the L2t is a definite ... just figuring out what to do about the future amp...  When I get the L2t that will keep me going for a while so I have time to consider the amp....

 

Thanks...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#17 EnzoHeavenly

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 06:14 AM

This ain't an amp, but you could totally get 2 Power Engine60s for less than 700 bucks... I like the way it sounds with the HD500X


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#18 mrkphpps

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 03:38 PM

Hey Rob

 

Just responded on another of your posts and think I may be understanding better...

 

Power amp configuration for DT25 gives you class AB (high power) and class A (lower power) in pentode (high power) and triode (lower power) options - I've not  checked the specs but I think class AB pentode gives you 25 watts, class A pentode gives you 10 watts and class A triode is down at around 5 watts.

 

Watch the output mode choice for an HD into Blackstar and L2t - the mode that should sound good with Blackstar may not be good with L2t and vice versa.

 

Mark


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#19 Robzebr

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 05:29 PM

I've not  checked the specs but I think class AB pentode gives you 25 watts, class A pentode gives you 10 watts and class A triode is down at around 5 watts.

 

I'll go back and check that.... I thought it was just 25 watts... and the low volume mode brought it down to 10 but then it was a modeled signal... for low level bedroom playing...

 

The reason why that is important to me is that I'm looking at this Mesa which is 5/15/25 and 5/25/50 depending on model and selectable....  so 5 watts is available for low volume bedroom playing... 

 

It sounds like you are saying that the DT25 will do the same thing but it does it based on the model selected and does it automatically as it reconfigures the power section for A, A/B, Pentode, or triode... 

 

If that is the case they are missing it by not saying that more simply in the literature... As a newbie (relatively) it sticks in my head when I see power selectable between 5, 15 and 25 watts... Its a whole other step in my pee brain to figure out that Class A/B Pentode is 25 watts .. Class A/B Triode is 10 watts ... and Class A Triode is 5 watts... I'll double check that in the DT25 lit...

 

Thanks...

 

 


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#20 Crusty_Old_Rocker

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:07 PM

Keep in mind that 10 Watts of class A can be louder than 25 Watts in class A/B.

Cheers,

Crusty
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